The Crispin Colloquy

Joe,

I kind of guessed that. What puzzles me is how you shorten the spring by hammering it on any surface...??!!

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

I’d like to toss something out for group discussion. Is it just me or is every factory Western Boot last too wide in the heel seat and too big in the short heel? You all know my theory on narrow heels....if everyone has them, they’re not narrow, they’re average, medium, normal, whatever you want to call them. For shoe lasts I’ve theorized in the past that last model making just got sloppy over the years and that created some wider backparts due to off center lathes, etc. I think this is still a valid possibility. However, for Western Boot lasts, the wideness in the heel seat and especially the extra measurement in the short heel girth (and to some degree the high instep) cannot be attributed to sloppy model making. This had to be built into the factory lasts on purpose. Distorted shapes on the sides of the heel and a little extra width is one thing but when you have to grade down to extremely narrow widths in order to come anywhere near hitting a normal short heel measurement, something else is going on.

So at first I thought perhaps the boot companies, in an effort to cash in on the Western fashion craze created by movies such as “Urban Cowboy” and others in the late 70s & early 80s, had their lasts redesigned to make sure the city slickers who were only going to wear the boots for a few hours on Saturday night didn’t have to fight to get in and out of them. I didn’t get involved in running the JV model room until around this time or a little later so I have no first hand knowledge of what the boot companies were asking for then. It would probably be impossible to track the history of this last development, especially now that the last three of the big USA last companies are all combined into one. I can’t even imagine the nightmare of that combined record keeping effort going back that many years.

I also thought that maybe most mainstream boot companies just always had this extra measurement built in, for the same reason. On mainstream lasts you can see a noticeable difference in these measurements between companies like Lama and Justin when compared to others such as Lucchese, which has a rich tradition of fit and last expertise. Any thoughts?

Bill “The Last Man Standing” Tippit
www.globalfootwearsolutions.com

Bill,

Hard to say one way or the other. Presumably, you're getting a lot of call for "custom" lasts with narrower heels at this point in your career. Thing is, that's the natural customer for anyone making bespoke footwear. We don't get the customers that are satisfied with off the shelf boots and off the shelf lasts. We get the customers with narrow heels and wide foreparts (not necessarily the same ) and high arches and low arches and hammer toes and short toes and so forth.

When you were at J&V or Sterling, did the manufacturers that you were making runs for want a "combination" last?

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

DW,

Yes, I'm getting the same types of requests for lasts that the bespoke makers are getting for boots because it's all coming from pretty much the same customer gene pool. I'm just wondering why there's such a consistently bad relationship between the short heel and the heel width of factory boot lasts versus so many feet. I can't help but think that these same lasts don't fit the customers who walk out of the retail store with them much better than they would your customers. The difference is, the retail customer doesn't have other, more pressing problems (and possibly not the finances for custom footwear) and just lives with it.

Very, VERY rarely did I ever see a request for "combination" lasts and when we got one it was just to narrow the backpart of the last a couple of widths. Because this was done only in the area of a two dimensional line across the wide points of the heel (sometimes not even being allowed to touch the featherline in this area) it had minimal affect on the short heel measurement.

I did once see shoes from a major manufacturer though that were clearly stamped B/AA, D/B, etc. "combination last" when we knew full well that the lasts those shoes were made on were not even remotely a "combo" last.

"If you stamp it, they will buy."

Bill “The Last Man Standing” Tippit
www.globalfootwearsolutions.com

DW You just hammer on the outside edge of the spring , not on the whole spring itself thereby just lengthening the outside of the curve while the inner curve remains the same therefore bringing the two ends closer together. It would be easier to explain with a picture.

Interesting (unusual?) lasts on Ebay

http://cgi.ebay.com/Pair-vintage-wooden-shoes-lasts-formers-L-R_W0QQitemZ8368364 523QQcategoryZ91247QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Is this the whole foot, or does it end before the back of the heel? Never seen anything like this before...

Jenny -
Those wooden forms from the UK look a bit like shoe trees for a high-top. Not really a last cause once the footwear was finished, how would you get the 'last' out?
Some mistakenly call articulating boot shoe trees 'lasts' but they are not.
The definately got a bit of use, and for sure were used to preserve the toe box and instep shape. But I am not sure if I would vote 'yes' for them being genuine 'lasts for shoe construction.
Happy New Year

Last making books...I'm looking for some written instructions on making lasts. If anyone has read both the Karl Adrian book and the George Koleff manual on lastmaking, I'd love to hear your opinions of them. Are either/both suitable for beginners? Do either discuss the effect of the last shape (and thus resulting shoe) on the function of the foot? Is it worth getting both books, or do they basically cover the same information? Or can anyone recommend another book/video, etc., that would be informative? Thanks.

Jenny

Jenny,

If you need to choose between Adrian and Koleff, I would recommend Koleff for starting out. While it doesn't go into specifics about the different choices for last bottoms, it is a good starting point, and you can experiment with different shapes yourself.

The Adrian book is geared towards production model making. I think it's very useful, and there are charts for the different sizes and widths- and diagrams of where measurements are generaly taken from.

The specific information you want may be something from a pedorthic manual, which someone else may be able to point to a source for. I had a very interesting conversation a while back with a Physical Therapist I met- he could go on and on about different shapes and flex points for different types of feet.

Hope this helps,

Erick
riotgeer@ameritech.net

Creating the flex point in the shoe...is this created purely by placing the shank so it ends just before where you want the shoe to flex, and by contouring the sole so that it naturally rests on the ground at the ball of the foot and then curves up off the ground behind the ball? Or are other things involved?

In a wedge shoe, do you just end the wedge behind the ball of the foot, or is there more to it than that?

Erick, thanks for the suggestion about the pedorthics resources.

Jenny

Jenny,

In answer to your question, "well, sort of".

The "flex point" is actually a diagonal line across the sole of the shoe called the "tread-line". Without the benefit of graphics, I'd say it should go across the insole/outsole at their widest points, which of course should be the widest points on the last, and the foot. You don't want to bring the front of the shank, especially if steel, that far forward, or it will pop through the outsole with wear, or be felt under the foot inside, because you'd be partly standing on it. I'd position the front of the shank maybe 3/4" to 1" back from the actual tread-line, and carry it back well under the heel to secure that end. The tread-line is just that, a pencil line [design line], however the foot hinges across the met. joints, which is a wider area in flesh and bone than a pencil line, and you don't want the shank as far forward as that.

Wedge soles are slightly different critters, but I'd still end the wedge a bit behind the tread-line--how much depends on the style you're trying to make.

I can't find your question on making fitters this AM, but all I do is: drape a piece of cheap 5oz. uppers leather over the last, sketch on a back-seam and throat, stitch up the back-seam [seam and allowance on the outside], cut the throat, and wet-last that. Most of the time I also make a minimal toe-box to support it, scrap lining leather, stiffened with Press Cement.. When set and dry, I pop tacks and hot glue it to the insole all around, then level the bottom w/ cork, stick in a wood shank, level again on the sander, and cement on some sole leather and whatever heel. When I'm ready to slip the last, I cut a slit down the instep, judged just far enough to get the last out, punch a few holes either side to lace it on the foot with flat nylon tape, and voila.

You can have the customer try this on, wear it for a while [after an hour it's probably stretched-out and deformed], mark on it with a pen where's too tight/loose, etc. Then re-insert the last, and with an awl poke holes through to mark the wood as to where build-ups/reductions, are needed. Fitters' shoes, or these trial try-ons, are not particularly "traditional", but at today's prices for lasts, leather, and bespoke shoes, the time and materials put into making them is a trifle compared to a mis-fit and wasted leather. There's a certain mystique, I suppose, to making the shoes without this intermediate fit-test, but unless you're experienced, I'd strongly recommend using these.

Al

Thanks Al. That sounds like a lot of work, like, well, making a shoe! I tried the duct tape idea on one last yesterday. It actually was useful, and gave me enough information to know that I have made the lasts too big, particularly the toe box. Not nearly as accurate as your method, I'm sure, but enough to help refine my lasts to get them in the ballpark of fitting. Yet another use for duct tape!

Tread line angle question. I would assume that the angle of the tread line varies somewhat from one person to the next, even with the same size feet. Is this an issue with the lasts...that the angle of the tread line on the last match the angle of the tread line on the foot...or does the shoe naturally "wear in" to the foot even if the tread lines don't match exactly?

Jenny,

My two cents: if you can customize and dedicate a pair of lasts for one customer, yes, bring the tread-line into exact conformity with the foot. If you're using stock lasts, don't sweat it. Draw a line across the foot tracing, bisecting the 1st and 5th met. heads, continuing out past the tracing. When you plop a last on top to check it for fit, the lines give you further registration points.

If the last, and subsequently the shoe's tread-lines are too far off from the foot, the shoes are harder to flex and walk in, one, and two, you get nasty little "C" shaped wrinkles in the vamps just behind the 1st. met. head, which should be avoided. For someone just starting out, I'd urge you to focus in getting the length and widths just right, than worry about perfection in all the other fit details.

The important thing is, jump in, get some experierience fitting and making. The fine points only come with time.

My experience is that if you're modeling a foot with a stock last and the treadline is at a different angle than the last itself, the footprint will diverge from the last significantly enough that modifications to the last...and hence the insole...will be indicated.

In other words, if the lateral ball joint on the foot is further back than on the last, you will almost certainly have to place a runner or build-up on the last corresponding to that location...and that itself will alter the way in which the foot seats itself within the shoe.

Even the bottom radius may be looked at in extreme cases but, I've never seen a foot with a treadline more than a degree or two off the standard.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

frommer@bootmaker.com
http://www.bootmaker.com

Jenny,

On using 1 screw and not have the front and back rotate: cut the last not just in half but on an angel this way the screw will draw the prieces together and they will not twist and all you need is the 1 screw. I have never worked with engineering bolts, just lagscrews. Since I make my lasts out of PU foam (when I make them myself) I can not keep the bolts in place as the lasts foams.
Anyway, here are some pictures that will make it much clearer:

You may have answered this but are you going to make a shoe or boot, if you are considering a shoe you will have to take out width around the ankle and add to the instep to get a grip on the heel counter. If you don’t to this your shoe will be falling off your foot no matter how good the rest of the fit is.

Rob

PS, Jim great tip and photo essay on the last tightening. My vote is for the “Jim shim” as the official name for this technique.


(Message edited by relferink on January 17, 2006)

(Message edited by relferink on January 17, 2006)

Thanks, Rob. That makes sense about the instep/ankle. The heel counter has been a source of torture for me so it makes me nervous to have it too snug at the top. Seeing commercial shoes with a very narrow heel opening at the top makes me wince, even without putting them on my feet, which I no longer even attempt! But if I follow through with my plan to make the counter stiff for only the lower part of the heel instead of all the way up to the top of the back of the shoe, maybe I can still narrow this area to make it more snug without causing pain. Sigh...

I am hoping to stop by Walrus Shoes Saturday and pick up the Koleff book and look at some of the lasts. Can't wait!

What is PU foam? Does it come in a block and you carve it down, or is it a liquid that you pour into a mold?

Rob, cutting question. The last I previously posted a picture of, I cut by putting it in a miter box and hand sawing it.

To get two cuts at an angle to each other as in the picture you posted, I gather one couldn't use a miter box. Is it possible to make these cuts with a hand saw, or did you use an electric band saw? Thanks.

Jenny,

I would not eliminate or lower the heel counter, if you make a custom last and the heel is the shape of your heel the counter will fit well. Leaving the counter out or keeping it very low is going to cut down significant on the live and usefulness of the shoe. The pain caused by counters is usually in the back of the heel, the grip should come from the side. Unless you have an unusual low ankle bone and the counter digs in there I know of no one that has a problem with the hold of the counter there.

The PU foam I use is a liquid that you mix and pour in the mold, it will expand and give a workable last. It is usually not as heavy as a last made out of polyester resin or the like.

Cutting it, either by hand or with a band saw, you need to draw out where to cut it, the last little connection you don’t cut but break apart once both cuts are made. The trick is to cut in such a way that the end of the cuts line up evenly on both sides.

Rob

Rob, I think the Liquid Last I use is too hard to break apart as you describe. Would two cuts meeting at slight different angles not work?

Rob, I would like to experiment with the PU foam. Where might I purchase some? Thanks, Sharon

Rob,

Is the PU foam of a consistency that you can pound tacks into it for lasting? Also, how are the fumes?

Jenny

Rob,

Is the PU foam of a consistency that you can pound tacks into it for lasting? Also, how are the fumes?

Jenny

Sharon, Jenny

I get the PU foam from Otto bock (800-328-4058), they call it Pedilen Rigid Foam. I will have to check the cans to see what density I currently use, it’s probably somewhere around 450. It works well for me, I can nail in it, it’s not to heavy and is easy to work with, easier to glue to compared to regular plastic lasts.
It’s a 2 component mixture that will expand, you have to measure the volume of the mold you want to pour and figure out how much of each component you need. It expands quite a bit. After you mix the components you only have a small window to work with it and yes the fumes are not all that pleasant. I prefer to work with it outside (not this time of year). I also do not order any this time of year. I had a batch go bad and I think it was because it had been exposed to temperatures that were to low.
One other very important issue, any trace of moister in your mold will destroy your pour. You could insulate your plaster mold with silicone just to be sure.

There is one other company that sells PU foam suitable for shoe lasts and I like it even better but I have not been able to find it outside of Europe and I can’t think of the name right now. I can see the round cans in front of me, red and white. Anyone??

Other company that sells a cheaper alternative is http://www.smooth-on.com. Their Foam-It series rigid urethane foam is in my oppinion a little to soft for shoemaking but you can get some good experience with PU foam.

I’ll check my labels and post the info

Rob

The PU foam is Otto Bock Pedelin Rigid Foam 617p21=4.600 and 617H41=4.600. These are cans of about a gallon each, they may have smaller sizes. The foam is 700 (kg/m3) density, for shoe lasts it probably is not a good idea to go softer, maybe for a kids last but not a regular last.

Hope this is helpful

Rob