The Crispin Colloquy

Tim,

That first paragraph went way over my head. Not your fault, I just have never used a last --yet.

I am using the person's foot. Is there any other way you can describe to me where the heel should start?

Gwen,

The front of the person's heel should be on top of the heel of the insole. I am taking a bit of a guess here but think the heel should be around 100 mm or 3 - 4" long. Draw your insole pattern onto the sole where you think it should be and then stand on that and see. I know this sounds a bit hit and miss but without knowing what you have at your disposal, that may be the best I can come up with.

Try measuring forward from the back of the insole 1/4 of the length of the insole and see if that puts the heel in the right sort of place. George Koleff used to measure the width of the insole and mark that measurement from the feather edge at the back, and then add 5mm for the front of the heel, I would think that 10mm extra may be better but it comes down to balance in the end and what looks right.

Tim

Can anyone give me pointers on where to look for information on how to get started making late 16th/early 17th century shoes?

These are a whole different world from the simple turned shoes I'm starting to get the hang of making, and acquiring the tools and skills to make them is going to take time but I'm not sure what is the best place to get started.

I have some very basic information on the construction elements from Stepping Through Time, but I need to figure out more details like what a 16th century pegging awl looked like (and how to use one), what the lasts were like, whether they were using curved awls by this time and suchlikes. It's all new to me and there's nobody I'm aware of within a day's plane flight that's doing this kind of work aside from making modern shoes in older styles, so I'm going to have to bootstrap myself as best I can. First I need to figure out what I have to learn, then how to learn it

Sadly I live in the land of very expensive inter-library loans, so if there are books I should try and get hold of I'd like to make sure they're the right ones.

Thanks.

Alasdair,

Pretty much the answers to most of these questions can be found on Marc Carlson's website too.

You don't need to sweat pegging awls, really, for making new shoes until the advent of the stacked leather heel, which is very late 16thc. Marc has scans of Randle Holme's 1688 book, which shows some of the earliest representations of tools, and a pegging awl.

If you search the Forum archives, there was literally "a book" of posts written on the appearance of curved awls, and there's also a lot on Marc's website about these as well.

As far as contemporary 16th-17thc. how-to books, there are none. The process and techniques must be inferred from studying the surviving shoes from that period. And for that, never mind inter-library loans--you'll need to spend time in Europe

You can find a very detailed desciption here about the 15th century boot-making. Unfortunately in Hungarian... but totally free..

http://mek.oszk.hu/02100/02115/html/1-1376.html

Approx at the middle of the page, you can find a lot of pictures about the bootmaker's tool in that time you search.

Tools:
http://mek.oszk.hu/02100/02152/html/03/img/3-298a.jpg
http://mek.oszk.hu/02100/02152/html/03/img/3-299.jpg
http://mek.oszk.hu/02100/02152/html/03/img/3-300.jpg
http://mek.oszk.hu/02100/02152/html/03/img/3-302.jpg
http://mek.oszk.hu/02100/02152/html/03/img/3-303.jpg
http://mek.oszk.hu/02100/02152/html/03/img/3-304a.jpg

one-foot sole:
http://mek.oszk.hu/02100/02152/html/03/img/3-304b.jpg

An old boot pattern:
http://mek.oszk.hu/02100/02152/html/03/img/3-298b.jpg

Method:
http://mek.oszk.hu/02100/02152/html/03/img/3-305a.jpg


The article:

http://mek.oszk.hu/02100/02152/html/03/56.html


I hope it helps a bit, even you can just see the pictures.

Marcell,

Thanks very much for posting links to this. What an interesting article--I wish I could read Hungarian

Except for a few earlier dates mentioned in the text, however, all the tools and devices illustrated appear to be from the 1800s and early 1900s though, not the 1400s. Did I misunderstand something?

The detail of the stitch shown looks close to what we call in English "split and lift" (the curved awl splits part-way through the substance of one piece, and lifts through the other". This was (formerly) common enough on hand-sewn English riding boots, to close the counter to the leg, as well as to sew the back-strap up the back-seam of the leg. In what context is it used in the illustration?

The text is very long and sometimes written in ancient Hungarian, which is quite hard to understand - even for me. But they write about the methods from the 1600's, not just the 1800's and later. Maybe you should take a trip here, and look around the museums, where they have something from that time. Should I collect some address, to help you connecting them?

Marcell,

I'm sure it would make more sense to me if I could read it, but I'll take your word for it that it mentions 1600s techniques, which I suppose cannot be too far off from 1400s in some basic details, as Alasdair had asked about.

It would actually be very helpful if you would post addresses to the museums you mention. I usually attend a tri-annual shoe-history conference in Zlin, Czech Republic--Obuv v Historii I think it's called in Czech--and am always eager to visit museums in and around Central Europe with shoes in to extend my trip "working". I have met several colleagues there from Czech R., Poland, Russia, and other countries who have shown many interesting shoes and shoemaking treasures, I just wish I could take a year's sabbatical from my museum and go traveling to see them all.

Thanks.

Definitely interesting stuff, but yes, later than the period Alistair is looking for (late 1500s - early 1600s).

As most of you know, there is a lot of evolution in techniques during this period, based on the archeology, illustrations, and the written evidence.

Alasdair, pegging awls shouldn't be that big a deal for you (although it is a skill you want to have). Pegged heels really aren't a major thing in shoes until a bit into the 1600s.

Marc

Dear Saguto,

Here are the links, and addresses. If they don't speak English feel fre to ask me helping for your mailing with them.


1. Dr. Batthyány-Strattmann Lászlo Múzeum
9900 Körmend, Vár Pf. 12.
Tel./Fax.: +36-94/410-425
mail: dbslm@muzeumkormend.t-online.hu
http://www.savariamuseum.hu/kormend/hIntezmeny.php

They have a collection showing the shoemaking history with quite old shoes.

It is a link for a video (didn't work for me, but maybe just because I use a Mac).
http://video.hirado.hu/videok/musorok/foter/20050109/foter_100_050109.wmv

some photos from the museum:
http://www.ongo.hu/kepek/38116
http://www.ongo.hu/kepek/38120
http://www.ongo.hu/kepek/38115


2. Szánto Kovács János Területi Múzeum
5900 - Orosháza
Dozsa György utca 5.

Nyitva tartás: K-P 9-16, Szo-V 10-15

Tel.: (+36 (68)) 412-853
szantokovacs.oroshaza@museum.hu
szkm@szkm.hu

An part of the exh.:
http://www.museum.hu/photo/oroshaza/szantokovacs/images/0217_t5459_maxi.jpg

They had an exhibition about shoes, but maybe they can help where you can find that collection..


3. Régészeti Park
2440 - Százhalombatta
Poroszlai Ildiko u 1.

Nyitva tartás: IV.1-X.31.: K-V 10-18

Tel.: (23) 350-537
regeszeti.szazhalombatta@museum.hu
info@matricamuzeum.hu

4. Tímárház - Kézm?vesek Háza
4026 - Debrecen
Nagy Gál István u. 6.

Nyitva tartás: K-P 10-17, Szo 10-14

Tel.: (52) 321-260
timarhaz.debrecen@museum.hu
timarhaz@dbmuvkozpont.t-online.hu

5. Néprajzi Ház
2766 - Tápioszele
Ceglédi út 5.

Nyitva tartás: IV.1-X.31.: K-V 10-16
El?zetes bejelentéssel

Tel.: (53) 380-061
neprajzi.tapioszele@museum.hu
blaskovichmuzeum@pmmi.hu

And maybe the most important:

http://www.hnm.hu/en/fooldal/mainPage.php


They don't have special shoe-collection. but it is the largest Hungarian museum, so most probably they can help.

Now that I'm the proud owner of 5 lbs of tallow, how do you store it for the quantity you are not melting up for insole treatment? Freezing?, Tupperware?, plastic bags, etc....

For those in search of a source, I bought mine on Ebay from stores.ebay.com/oldtimesoapcompany.

Any other uses or recipes for tallow relating to the gentle craft? I apparently have plenty.

Regards,

Georgene

Georgene,

Tallow comes in two types, commerical and food grade.

Food grade tallow can be stored in a cool basement for extended period of time. I'm not sure the exact length of time though. I do know that I had it stored on a shelf in a restaurant kitchen for over 6 months. Food grade tallow doesn't contain any pig fat or lard in it.

Commerical tallow does have lard in it and I read somewhere that it needs to be refrigerated because of the lard.

If you don't refrigerate it, you have to put it in a air-tight comtainer.

Hope that helps a little, Joel

Georgene,

I bought a gallon of beef tallow some years ago from an outfit that makes tallow for trapping. I'm just getting down to the end of it now so the suggestion to look for it on Ebay was timely. Thanks.

My understanding is that tallow is rendered fat--it can be beef or sheep or maybe any animal but commonly it's sheep or beef--and rendered fat will not go rancid. Supposedly that's the whole point of rendering in the first place.

In any event, I also have had a pint jar of sheep tallow sitting on a shelf for about fifteen years...no cooling, no sealing off from air....and no odor or change of appearance.

My gallon of beef tallow turned brown deep in the the jar but when I heat it, it melts just like the white stuff. And there is no discernable smell even before melting.

Someone on this forum suggest adding paraffin to the fat after rendering and while it is still molten. This seems to stabilize the tallow but I was sent a sample and I'm not sure I like the feel of it on the leather.


Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

DW,

How do you apply the tallow to the insole leather?

Joel

Joel,

I just heat the tallow in a little "tuna fish can" (or something like it ), just barely past the point of melting, and then brush it on the grain surface of the insole. Sometimes it will soak all the way in. At that point, I put on another coat. Sometimes, I'll take a hair dryer and holding it about 12" from the surface, warm the tallow until it does soak entirely in...then add another coat. I may put as many as six coats into the insole, before setting it aside to let the surface dry.

Don't heat the leather. Don't let the oil get too hot (oil holds heat better than water, for instance).

Usually I do this after the insole has been tempered and dried to the bottom of the insole but before trimming to size.

Don't look for this to soften the insole leather much (at least not at first). It is there as much to provide a reservoir of conditioning for the insole...as a foil for perspiration, heat, bacteria, etc....as anything else.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

Georgene
For waterproofing equal amounts by weight of tallow, beeswax, carnuba wax and one half of weight amount in neatsfoot oil. Melt and mix over low heat and do not let it boil or burn. From an old Army tech manual on leather care.
Tom

Tom, is that a waterproofing recipe for a completed shoe/boot? Or is it applied at some stage to parts of footwear under construction? Any cautions for parts that need to me cemented later?

Regards

Georgene

It is for a finished product. it is a mix for long term storage or very wet conditions.

Al,

Thanks for your reply. It's the very late 16th century style shoes I want to have a go at. I'll stare at the pegging awl picture from Holme more. Did the blade shapes change much?

I'll add late 16th century shoes to the ever-growing list of things to look at when I make it back to Europe. Lack of access to decent museums is the one thing that makes me regret leaving Scotland.

If I could beg a favour, from you or someone else on the forum familiar with the techniques of around that period, is there any chance you could post some photographs of what various seams are supposed to look like when they are done right? I can figure them out so they work, and I think I'm starting to get the hang of round closing but I struggle a bit not knowing what a good one is actually supposed to look like. The curse of being a very visual learner

Thanks.

On the off chance that anyone is interested after the tallow discussion, I recently rendered about 10lb of the stuff at home and documented the process: http://wherearetheelves.blogspot.com/2007/09/rendering-tallow.html

It's a bit of a stinky process, I recommend buying it pre-rendered if you can

I repeated the rendering process until it stopped getting better. I couldn't get it really pure white, but the the very slightly yellow stuff I ended up with has no real odor and seems to work fine. I cast a bunch of it into cakes in a muffin pan and just apply it to leather straight from the cake with a hairdryer. It seems to work Ok and saves me having to have a melting pot but I'll try applying it molten with a brush next time. I'm just storing it in a ziplog baggie, no refrigeration.

If you want to gain a real appreciation for the wonders of parrafin waxes, you could make some tallow candles

There's another good description here: http://www.geocities.com/greg_diana/soappage3.html

Alistair,

I took a look at your blog, and the the examples you have of round closings there look like you are on the right path.

(BTW, my suspicion about the leather falling apart may have as much to do with crap leather as it does with the iron oxide dyes).

Marc

Marc,

Thanks for the feedback.

I have some dyed strapwork on a sword scabbard I made a couple of years ago that has disintegrated badly since then and undyed straps cut from the same hide have survived very well so there seems to be something in the idea that extra tannins are a good idea with iron dyes, at least on some leathers.

There are really too many variables to make a solid statement, but yes, in some leathers it can be a problem.

BTW, this is an example of a REALLY WELL DONE round closing (and no, I didn't do this one, Al did - at gunpoint).


His was done with bristle and at 12-14 per inch.

Marc