Pattern making

[relferink]

DW,

I keep have my facings together, only on my derbies do I keep them slightly apart, 1 to 2 mm on the standard. The last is spot on in the instep girth. When lasting I put the facings together. It does eliminate an margin of error but if you can trust your lasts you should be fine.

I'm not trying to confuse things and give you different advice compared to Tim, just giving you my way to "skin the cat"
If you need to adjust the volume after the shoe is made (aka your last is off in it's measurements) you can add a little arch support to lift up the instep and take up that volume but there really should be no reason to with custom lasts.
With non custom lasts or lasts you don't want to adjust you still know what the foot measurement is vs. the last. Based on the measurement you know if you need more or less volume and adjust accordingly. My preference would be to adjust the last but I now not everyone is comfortable with that.

Just my

Rob

[relferink]

DW,

Very respectable looking shoe. The heel height gives it an interesting look, with that heel height the 6 eyelets will help hold the foot from sliding forward. This is a nice alternative to shoes with build in raises for shorter people! You may be onto a new market here.
Did you use any side linings? In the picture of the shoe on your foot there seems to be some tension in the leather behind the ball. Hard to determine if it's the leather, the fit or just the picture.

Rick: the top line seems fine to me, if you were to cut this higher in front of the ankle bone you'd be pressing on the tendons that run in that area. With the higher heel your ankle wouldn't flex as much compared to a low heel so it may not be an issue but on a lower heel I'd be careful coming up any further.

Rob

[romango]

Terry, Robert:

While it might be handy to load a meane form scan into Terry's program, it might be just as easy to simply print out a pattern from the program and lay the physical meane form shape on top of it. Then adjust the pattern parameters to fit.

[relferink]

Rick,

That's true; one can just overlay the mean forme once printed and adjust the setup where needed. In this stage it may be a nice feature but there are easy ways to work around it. Once the program gets to a stage where it will specify each pattern piece and prints it out, it would be nice to leave all the adjustments inside the software. This way it would also be much easier to trace back your steps for future pairs and / or trying to figure out what causes a problem.

Once I'm back from my trip, and have some time to dive into this I will try to overlay the mean forme and see if that makes the pattern making process easier or better. I'll be sure to post my findings and/or progress.

Rob

[dw]

Rob,

Thanks for the comments/compliment on the shoe. I did use midlinings although I put them in after lasting and after I had the toe stiffener in and shaped. And they weren't very high--only about 3/4 inch above the inseam.

Mounting the toe stiffener after lasting is a bootmaker's way of doing things, I guess, although I see some of these top shelf italian shoemakers doing the same thing in the photos on their websites. I will probably always do it that way even if advised otherwise...simply because I am hardheaded.

Which brings me to another question: if you last dry, how do you you go back and add a toe stiffener and a midlining without risking some slippage? Although I suppose it is easy enough to regain that slippage when you pull everything back over.

[I used Hirschkleber on the heel and toe stiffener and was surprised at how stiff and solid both were. ]

Also, if you keep your facings together...do you measure snug and build the last right on the money, expecting the facings to open a little when the shoe is laced for comfort? My shoe fits like a boot--snug, with no slippage at all--but the facings don't close down as tight as I thought I had left them open when lasting. It's marginal--maybe less than one-eighth inch--but it indicates that either the last is too small for a shoe (fits too snug) or I need to do as you suggest and keep the facings together with the understanding that a shoe doesn't need to fit as snug as a boot...and the customer will not ordinarily lace it up that snug.

But the other question is, if you last with the facings together, do you then design your standard so that the facings are together?

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[relferink]

DW,

What slippage are you referring to? Slippage of the toe box while you last it? I usually do not use leather but Tepp2, that having an adhesive side keeps if from slipping. When lasting a leather toe box tack it to the last on top of the toe. Take the nail out when the toe box is still damp, with some press cement or Hirschkleber and a hammer you can make that nail hole disappear.
I don't think that is what you were referring to as this would be no different from the way to set up a toe on a boot.

I measure with the tape securely to the foot but do not pull it tight. When I overlay the two ends of the tape on the instep of the foot I should be able to hold it in place with 1 finger and without really pressing. Hope that makes sense but if you pull the tape to hard and try to hold it in place with 1 finger, the tape will slip.

As to the opening on the facing, many different ways to approach it and different people will like different things. Depending on the grade of shoes you want to make you allow yourself more or less of a "safety margin". I consider having the facings slightly open a "safety margin". In my not so humble opinion, on a high grade bespoke shoe the facing should be just touching during regular wear. If yo have a customer that wants the feel of a very snug fit over the instep you will have to take a little extra off your lasts but for the average customer the foot will be secure enough between the ball and the heel counter, the laces hold the foot down but don't take any major pressure. In fact the last should fit well enough that the shoe will not slip very much even if the laces are not tied.
Of course there are situations were you can choose to divert from this, depending on the leather that you use and the customers foot, if the foot gains measurable volume during the day you will need the safety margin.

With the boot lasts the fit is different from a shoe last because of the heel height. The foot will put more pressure on the facings with a higher heel so your test shoe may not be the best example to go by.

On my standard the facings are together, I do not take off any margin when making the patterns for a standard oxford. That said, in my line of work an oxford is not very common, in fact I can't remember the last one I made for a customer. Must have been many years ago or maybe I'm suppressing those memories

my

Rob

[dw]

Rob,

I was taught, and always understood, that leather has a memory. It will stretch but all things being equal and it is not overstrained, it will try to return to its original size and shape, once the tension is released. The only sure way to prevent this is to stretch the leather while it is wet and let it dry under tension.

So...slippage...the slippage I was talking about relates to leather memory. If I last the shoe dry, and then peel back the forepart and even the quarters to mount the toe stiffener and the midlinings, I fear that I will have undone the effects of lasting...at least to some extent. As I said, musingly, in the previous post, I suppose that much if not all of that slippage can be recovered when toe stiffener and such are in place and shaped and the upper is pulled back over.

But I'm still nervous that the shoe will never properly hold its shape if dry lasted.

This is not to say that dry lasting isn't the proper approach, but it kind of flies in the face of everything I've been taught and thought I knew. I'm thinking spritzing the shoe with water as I last and giving it a perfunctory wetting after it is lasted.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[shoestring]

DW and all,

Not that I am an expert in shoe building I had the same though of wet lasting for the same reasons.But after studying a few post by Jan and his dry lasting I tried it.I kept the shoe in the last for a week it resembled what I was after,therefore I said self this is the way to go.Now if I have to spritz a small section that is stubborn I will.As For midlinings I did that process before lasting and it looked good what I did do is add the toe box later as demonstrated by DW that worked also.Now that I have been made aware of that margin of safty I will incooperate that.
Now here's whats bothering me.When the facing is stitched under the eyelet holes is that to hold the midlining,or aesthetic reasons.Being self taught is hard road but a fun one.Thanks to you all.

Ed

[artzend]

Ed and DW

I only ever lasted wet when emergency dictated. It is certainly not essential to wet last. In 99% of the time you should not even need to use any moisture, if you last properly and your patterns are fairly close.

You set up your lines of tension (transverse and lateral) and that is what holds the shape. You only peal back the forepart upper when you do the toe puff, the back stays lasted and solid, and things don't move there. The upper stays lasted up to the joint and the amount of material rolled back is minimal.

You will only need to spritz it if you stuffed up somewhere. Give it a go.

You should not take the upper off the last at least until the stiffener has dried completely so that gives you at least 24 hours for the upper to set.

Ed, that stitching can be to hold the eyelet reinforcements in place, or sometimes it holds the lining or it can even just be decorative. I always made sure that my eyelet reinforcements were big enough to catch with that stitch line.

Tim

[relferink]

All,

I don't have much to add to Tim's post, just a few additional comments. The main factor is the grade of the leather you choose, if you use appropriate shoe leather, stay away from furniture leather and leave your shoe on the last long enough after lasting there should be no problem.

When applying the counter, toe box and side linings I always use my hammer to tap out any unevenness, air bubbles and to secure all layers. This tapping helps in removing any unevenness from seams and it also seems to help the leather taking on the shape of the last. Add to that the residual moisture coming out of the counter and toe box in the areas where you stretch the leather the most and you will not have a problem! The only leathers I wet last are heavy duty work boot leather that otherwise can not be pulled around the toe smoothly.

By leaving the shoe on the last long enough, preferable a couple of days after lasting, tapping the leather and the effect of the moisture in the counter and toebox the leather will take on a new memory. Try it by lasting a vamp only, lining, toebox and upper. Don't even put an insole on and let it sit for a couple of days, than take of the leather and see how hard it is to smooth back out. You'd be surprised!

Ed, like Tim mentioned, if you can catch the eyelet reinforcements with the stitching it will add a little more strength to your facings. Depending on your closing sequence you can do this whenever it works out for you but if you make the upper and lining separate and than bring them together as described in this thread earlier on I would do it before sewing the quarters to the vamp and before you sew in the lining.

Rob

[romango]

I have always done a dry lasting with spritzing the front of the vamp, to make it form better over the toe. After DW's workshop, I did a wet last job and was also quite satisfied. One needs to have different sensitivities to pulling (and we are a sensitive bunch, no?) but I don't see any problem with either method.

When spritzing just the toe, one can slightly dampen further up to prevent water stain lines.

I agree with both Tim and Robert that, if the fit of the pattern is good, less moisture/stretching is needed and, if the leather is heavy, more moisture is a good thing.

[romango]

Here is an interesting article on pattern making in general. http://www.bunniestudios.com/blog/?p=198

I like the comment from the experienced CAD designer. He says CAD is dumb, it's the experience of the operator that gets a good result.

[dw]

Rob, Tim, anyone...

I know I asked this question before but I can't find where it was posted...and I'm drawing a blank for some reason.

If I use insole sholder for heel stiffeners, how heavy should they be for a men's shoe? Ditto on the toe stiffener?


Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[artzend]

DW

For men's shoes you probably need to have a 3mm stiffener, and about 1.5mm toe puff. I am just going by memory here but I am sure I put that in the book.

Tim

[dw]

Tim,

Thanks. I thought I remembered about 6 iron.

You know before I posted this question I went through your book looking for the answer. I checked the index for "stiffener" and looked in the section on lasting and so forth. Couldn't find it--dumb bootmaker, I guess.

Once you posted the answer and mentioned it was in there, I looked again and wouldn't you know it, I almost opened the book to the right page first time! [sigh]

I'll write it down in my bench notes this time.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[artzend]

No worries DW. I am glad I had included it or I would have had to do a new print run.

Tim

[shoestring]

Question,

When making an "Oxford" what is the best way to determine the center of the vamp to place the facing/counter to make everything line up correctly ,or how does everyone else does it.And should there be any space between the two facings or string them together before lasting.I hope this makes sense what I am asking.Oh!!!!! while I am at it. Not being artistic,is there a source I can go to to study how broquing on a toe cap is done.Or is that through trial & error.

Ed

[artzend]

Ed,

you can either prick mark in the fold allowance or make a slight silver pen mark or just fold the vamp in half just enough to be able to see the centre after applying the glue to fit it to the quarters. That was what I mostly did. Fold it so the glue is to the outside though.

At the bottom I would say that you don't want any gap and the stitch that holds the two facings together should be just above the vamp fitting line. Any higher and you run the risk of a gap appearing after lasting.

Just get some catalogues of men's shoes to get broguing patterns. They don't seem to vary too much.

Tim

[relferink]

Ed,

Not exactly sure what you mean by the center of the vamp. If I understand correctly you are asking how you would know if your shoe sits on the last straight. The way I do it is tack the upper on the last with 3 tacks, one at the toe and than just behind the ball. Now check it by eye to make sure it lines up. If you do both shoes and compare it will make you help in seeing if they are straight. Also check the back seam, if that's off the front is likely off.
I also leave a piece of paper tape with the center line on the last. When you are lasting, before you lace up your upper, lift up the tongue and see if the facing lines up with the line.
I don't think there should be a space between the facings but you can have some if you are not sure about the last fit, it will give you a little more margin of error once the shoe is made. I know this was discussed in this thread late August, early September, see the archived pages above.
The broquing can be done one hole at a time or if you have a tool that punches 3 at a time it makes it a lot easier. The classic pattern is one one larger hole and 2 smaller like a colon. There are some variations on this classic pattern and your imagination would be the limit.

Hopes this answers your question

Rob

[shoestring]

Tim,

You gave me the answer I was leaning towards but was not quit sure,I will use the pen mark.

Robert,
Thanks for the tape tip an the way to go about broquing.I was more small holes than large ones that's why my test looked like a fright mask.

Ed

[danfreeman]

DW,
For mens shoe stiffeners, your goals are the same as in boots, and number one is shape retention (presuming the shape is correct to begin with.) However, a narrow, close look in the heel rules out substantial leathers, and a strong, durable counter is especially needed in a heavy, stout upper. I use no synthetics, only leather for heel stiffeners (exceptions for the toe box), so I'm always on the lookout for 4.5, or 5 iron bends, not split, no flesh, and very firm; yet plastic enough when wet. They are rare.

Ed,
There are different names for these, but the two most basic shoe patterns are (1) the balmoral, or closed tab, or Oxford, where the vamp lays on top of the quarters; and (2) the blucher, or open tab, or Gibson, or Derby, where the quarters lay on top of the vamp. In balmorals, the lacing stays should be touching when the shoe is lasted up. In bluchers, there should be a gap, though not large or uneven.

Dan

[dw]

Dan,

Good to see you back...I wish you, with all your experience and skill at making men's shoes, would post more often.

I have been using a double shoulder I am getting from Stevenson-Paxton for making my insoles, toe boxes, and heel stiffeners--split to suitable thicknesses. So far...I have been really amazed at how plastic is when wet, yet how firm it is when dry.

What are you using and where are you getting it from?

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[danfreeman]

All,
I've been in Philadelphia for 2 weeks. The thin, 4.5 iron bends I like for stiffeners come from Keystone Leather ("buffed insole bends&#34, though the last batch was heavier, 5.5 iron, requiring time-consuming work with the knife, and even the sander. I've sometimes found thin, firm leather that looked perfect, but never got soft enough, case as I would. In mens dress shoes, especially the lighter varieties, you often want that slim, trim look, and a big round heel can spoil the lines.
Although I sometimes use non-leather toeboxes (paste-stiffened muslin layers, or styrene "celastic&#34, it's often difficult to make the toebox disappear completely--it's "ghost" remains faintly visible on thin uppers. With leather toeboxes, there's never this problem, but the leather's thickness, no matter how slight, can make a very stylish toe look bulbous.

Dan

[dw]

Thanks, I'll check it out.

BTW, Milton-Sokol imports chestnut tanned soling bends in various weights. I like it. I mention it because trying to use the quebracho tanned bends from Keystone (which are fine for outsoles) for heel stiffeners at 10 iron, was very difficult. They would not soften and get plastic no matter how long I left them in the water or wrapped in paper. So I tried the Chestnut tanned. At 10 iron it is very firm until wet...at which point it gets satisfactorily soft and moldable. Maybe a 4-5 iron bend of chestnut would be good, as well.

Many years ago I got a piece of "heel stiffener" leather from Kevin Leahy (who at that time was part of Tarsus Seven). I was really dubious because it was stiff as a board at 4 iron. Kevin told me "drop it in the water, you'll be surprised." I did and I've been looking for something with the same properties ever since. The chestnut tannage is as close as I've come.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[shoestring]

Dan,

I want to thank you for that info.And I will last those styles as mentioned by both Tim and yourself from here on.

Ed