The Crispin Colloquy

Looks like "organic" surf wax is a popular item nowdays.

The basic cold water formula:
beeswax
coconut oil
rosin

This off the shelf stuff may be a good starting point. Melt down with with more rosin if needed etc.

-Nat

All,

i think I have posted this link before to a Swedish agent who sells both pitch and tar for all maritime use all over the world. http://www.claessons.com/english/produkter_list.asp?do=list&sokord=&category=4

Ask what they have in stock regarding pitch. Sometimes they get a batch of the good stuff, probably from eastern Europe or was it from France. The Swedish version cost not more then about $45-50 per 5 kilos box and it might be better stuff now then the box I bought which was to brittle and dry. It all depends on the "coocking".

A box of 5 kilo would cover all our needs I guess.

Janne

So...who's in?

I think I'd be in for a half kilo or so. I'd go for more but I have about 19 lbs of Rausch naval yard pitch from way before they went out of business. I think I started with 20 lbs., thirty plus years ago.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

John:

I'd try a half kilo or even a kilo, assuming we can get some true pitch; the link seems to show only oakum. If you speak with them, you might also inquire as to where the pitch comes from. Al has indicated that no pitch or pine tar is being made commercially in Sweden, it all comes from China.

I had a couple of folks try a German pitch maker, but notwithstanding the maker's promises, I haven't been able to actually get them to send any.

Lance

5 kilo's...that's 11 pounds..right. I would be interested in going in on that. 1/2 pound or so.

geri

I agree with Lance, let's make sure that this is the right stuff, I will try to find out this information, and if so we'll set something up.

One other thing just occurred to me, that I live in a coastal community, I'll stop by the local haul up and see what they use for repairing boats, I know the gentleman there has an interest in history, so maybe there's a lead.

All,
I just talked to Claesson's and I'm afraid they didn't have the pitch we are looking for. What they have is petroleum based. They will not get anymore either because the man I mentioned about earlier sadly passed away last fall.

However, he recomended those interested to cook their own pitch out of tar. This is what some old boat owners are doing when they need to seal the oakum with the real stuff. Of course, as Alisdair mentioned, it is a messy thing to deal with but he said it will work. He would be happy to send some good Swedish tar if anyone want to give it a try.

I also asked him about the tar. It is an transparent liquid which change colour depending on light conditions and on how far in the process it is going. There is no dirt in it as I thought but it consist of more then 10000 different chemical substances!

Janne

Colophony USED to be super-brittle rosin, extra hard. Originally from Colophon, Lydia in Asia Minor, and from ____ plant???????

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"I have posted this link before to a Swedish agent who sells both pitch and tar for all maritime use all over the world. http://www.claessons.com/english/produkter_list.asp?do=list&sokord=&category=4"
=========================

I dealt with them a couple of years ago for "pitch". Mr. Chang in Sweden informed me that all their product now comes in from his native China. He explained their pine trees are different species than N. Europe, so the smell and texture are very different. I did not have much luck trying this stuff.

Best I ever had was "Swedish Pine Tar Pitch" from White Sea & Baltic Co., Leeds, UK, in the late '80s through mid '90s. White Sea no longer carries this, but they do sell the absolute best smelling Stockholm Tar (yes Janne, wood preservative), but it can be mixed with chunk rosin to make pretty good "pitch" for shoemakers' wax.

All,

PLEASE, someone order a small sample of this to try before you all jump in with both feet on kilos!
Disappointments are all to common

D.A.
Interesting to hear you can mix tar and rosin to get good shoemakers wax. That would be the easiest way to do it I think. I don't mind skipping that cooking.

Do you have a the proportions or it just by trial and error? As for shipping from Sweden any domestic tar brand must work as good.

Janne

As previously noted, a few years ago I 'simmered' some of the Auson's Kiln Burned Pine Tar to blow off the turpentine and leave a residual mass of what I believe should be called pitch. It left a VERY sticky pitch; however, my initial efforts at using this for handwax yielded a brittle final product, perhaps due to too much rosin. I probably need to try to recook it with a bit more beeswax or oil, but I've been busy with other things and got some handwax from another source that has sufficed. Still, this seems worth a try if anyone is interested.

Or, as Al suggested, you could just cook the pine tar with rosin and see how it turns out

Lance

Thanks Janne for looking into that, thanks Al for your information.

Question: the purpose of the tar component, preservative for the thread? Many stitching wax recipes are only made from rosin, beeswax, and oil or paraffin, and if used with a dacron thread is it necessary? I'm one for the romance of the craft and personally like the smell as I wax threads, but is a wax without tar actually missing something important?

Jon,
you are welcome. I am using dacron thread for sewing the welt on and I don't use any wax at all besides for the ends so it works without wax for me.

But when stitching the sole on by hand I use linnen and the old shoemakers wax. The look and coulur of the tred makes a different. I don't like the tread to be black or yellowish but more like the bronze coulour I mentioned about before.

To bad that here in Sweden most bottom work are black so the tread ends up black anyway but on brownies it looks realy good.

Janne

All,
I have a phobia about the part of making hand wax where you have to reach into the water and break off a chunk after you've cooked it. I'm terrified I'll somehow coat my whole hand with burning hot wax. So if anyone makes extra and wants to sell some PLEASE let me know.

Lisa

Hi Lisa,

I remember a friend, who was quite drunk at the time, reaching in and grabbing a piece of meat he dropped into a hot Foudue pot, he was really burned. However, after seeing my daughter load a HOT ceramics kiln by hand I learned a little lesson. She would put her hand and arm in a bucket of ice water and let it get cold, it didn't take long, and then she would load a pot or two, bare handed, into an already hot kiln. I am talking a dangerously hot kiln. She explained the physics to me and let me try one, the first time is really scary, at least as scary as the first time around on a fast Landis 12.

If someone could give me a definite formula, I could do a batch and bring it to Wichita Falls in the fall. I'm not trying to go into a new business here, just would like to give it a try.

Art

This subject of cooking hand wax from scratch seems more confusing than it should be and my head is spinning a bit. Much of my problem is that just when I think I’ve got it straight what each of these materials are, I read something new that makes me question weather I understand correctly. I’ve seen sources that use the terms Pitch and Rosin interchangeably. Other sources make a strong distinction between the two.
It looks like the main differences between Rosin and Pitch (according to Websters) is that Rosin is hard, Pitch is liquid, or at least a “viscous” thick liquid. Is that correct?

Definition of PITCH
1: a black or dark viscous substance obtained as a residue in the distillation of organic materials and especially tars
2: any of various bituminous substances
3: resin obtained from various conifers and often used medicinally
Definition of ROSIN
: a translucent amber-colored to almost black brittle friable resin that is obtained from the oleoresin or deadwood of pine trees or from tall oil and used especially in making varnish
Definition of TAR
1a : a dark brown or black bituminous usually odorous viscous liquid obtained by destructive distillation of organic material (as wood, coal, or peat)


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Just bought two pounds of Rosin. One pound is black and the other pound is amber.
What is the difference?

The beeswax/rosin recipe makes sense to me…. Sticky / waxy.
Too waxy; add more sticky.
Too sticky; add more waxy.

I don’t understand the recipes that use Pitch. Is pitch providing the sticky or the waxy; or both?

-Nat

Nat,
as I understand it pitch is what prevent the tread from rotten and makes it sticky. Without the "waxy" thing would it be mutton suet, which is what I am using, or something else it will not work. You want get the pitch on the tread without it.
Hope this helps

Janne

Nat,
I re-read my posting and saw I left out a third ingridience which is the sticky part, pine tree resin. Pitch, resin and the "waxy" thing mix it and you got something close to old shoemakers wax.

sorry for the confusion

Janne

No problem Jan, and BIG THANK YOU!!

I think I finally understand now.
I kept thinking (incorrectly) that pitch was just another version of sticky but it's mostly for anti-microbial properties which keep linen from rotting.
That's why both pitch and rosin are needed.

pitch = kill critters that eat linen
rosin = make it "tack" to threads and hold threads tight.
wax/oil = make rosin softer so it's easier to apply to threads.

Does that sound correct?
-Nat

The best way to to prepare a waxed thread for sewing/stitching shoes/boots is the two process i demonstrated at a HCC gathering,applying sticky pine tree resin to the thread strands for twisting reasons and than rub the bees wax for lubrication.I made some linen thread today the same way and stitched a pair of soles and the ends remain stuck to the end.

Nasser

Nasser,
This sounds more simple than melting all rosin and wax together first.

Are you saying that thread rotting is not a concern for you, or that rosin alone is enough protection?
(vs. using pitch also)

-Nat

OK, Here is a picture of some thread waxes,the one on the right is thread wax that came from a Lobb master maker,Sticky resin mixed with soft(bees wax)It might well work for fine linen which i never get ,the ball in middle is pine sap cooked and mixed with some oil to keep it soft and the far left is a piece of pure bees wax for the finishing touches.

Nasser

Sorry,Didn't mean to confuse you, but the wax on the left is Lobb's maker wax.

Naaser