The Crispin Colloquy

Nasser
there is many ways the tongue could be sewed in a fieldboots.
The "easy" way to do it is to crimp a piece of leather big enough for the tongue. Cement it in place before the back seam is closed. Sew it togehter with the lining/upper at the edge of the lace area and close it by sewing it through the upper, at the seam behind the lace hole. Doing it this way is not a real bellow but it will allow you to make the entrance of the boot shorter then on a dressage boot. Making a "real" English bellow tongue is another thing and I only know how to do it on "Grenley" boots as on the photo
Hope this helps

Nasser,
I re-read my posting and I saw I was not clear. Making it the "easy" way the only seam on the tongues will be the one behind the lace holes and I forget to mention that the tongue need to be attached to the vamp.
Sorry for the confusion

I think I have some photos of how the tongue is attached if i find them I will post them

Here are two photos of crimped tongues
the first show a Derby boot with a tongue that is not crimped folded

The second photo show a tongue that is crimped folded (bellow) and is for a laced field boots with straps and buckles (Grenley)

The third photo show a Derby tongue that is crimped folded (bellow)

Here are two photos of crimped tongues
the first show a Derby boot with a tongue that is crimped un folded
The second photo show a tongue that is crimped folded (bellow) and is for a laced field boots with straps and buckles (Grenley)
The third photo show a Derby tongue that is crimped folded (bellow)

Where are those pictures when i need them,Damn technology,help someone?

Jan,

Thank you for taking the time,I hope all went well moving to the big city,your tongue is correct for the style that opens up in the front,it is a different story if the front is not open and in one piece above the facing and if it is it is fourfold tongue as in the picture. i like to see how this four-fold tongue is closed on the top,The bottom part i do very well and it closes like a book. Thanks again.



Nasser

Nasser,
you are welcome. The move to Stockholm is done and we are slowly getting settled here.

I am afraid I can't help you with how the four fold tongue is closed on the top. I have so far always crimped the tongue as in the first photo above on my one piece above the facing field boots. However, even though it will not be a four folded tongue it works very well.

Jan,

I think i have to make an appointment with Elizabeth Semmelhack the curator of Bata shoe museum to look at some of their field boots,they have some fine field boots there,but might be too old/fragile to handle to have a good look,I will see.

Nasser

Nasser,
I talked to my friend and colleague Pelle Kraft and he told me that in the West End trade they make a cut in the lining above the facing and cement in the tongue between the upper and lining. Also, the only seam that holds the tongue is, beside the vamp, around the edge of the facing. The seam that is behind the lace holes are just for show.
Hope this helps.
Janne

Jan,

Thank you for that,that makes sense to me now that the tongue at the top of the facings will go between lining and upper, that's what i did not know I will try that and will let you know how it work. Thanks again to you and Pelle.

Nasser

Nasser,
you are welcome. Good luck...............Janne

It would sure be facinating to stand over your shoulder and watch you make.
This looks like a very complex assembly.
Paul

Paul,

This art of ours never cease to challenge and fascinate my mind,some much to learn,it keeps me humble and awake at night thinking about solutions,like the one i have on my hand now on this boot and at this time i wish i could find a master closer of this boot to show me how?but it will be solved either by observation or inspiration which usually comes after some long thinking over it,you are right it is a complex assembly,it is the sequence in the closing that i forgot from 15 years ago when i made two pairs,one was sold and the other which was intended to stay in the shop as sample and reminder was taken by someone i knew and i never seen him,the boots or payment. i will post a picture when i have another go at it and made one,It is a costly experiment both in time and money as you well know.

Nasser

So far, I’ve side-seamed using my Consew walking foot machine and had moderately good results, but last night I most likely ruined one of the pair I’m working on because the machine lost it’s mind half way down the seam. I was so frustrated that I just walked away. I’ve had plenty of setbacks and disappointments while trying to learn this mountain of skills, but for some reason this one hit me really hard.
In the future, I’m not willing to trust hours of hard work to a machine that wasn’t made for the job.

Which leads me to ask…

What is the best method for side-seaming boots by hand?

Can an acceptable side seam be made by hand without the use of a stitching fixture? (stitching horse/pony… not sure of the correct name)

Is it common to pre-punch the holes in each piece before sewing the whole thing together?… Similar to moccasin construction for instance.


My wise grandpa used to say “The only lessons you really learn are the ones you learn the hard way”. I guess if I have to re-make these boots, I’ll be wiser for the experience.

Thanks for listening and please excuse if this comes across as whining or complaining. I don’t mean it that way.

Any advice is much appreciated.

Regards,
-Nat

Nat

We have probably all been where you are now sometime in our career. One doesn't need to be a novice to make a mistake or a slip and ruin a pair. Don't dispair.

Yes, it is possible to do a good job of sideseaming by hand. In my opinion its not necessary to pre-punch holes. Perhaps where your counter top and vamp top come together you could put a stitch to make sure they stay in alignment I'm sure others can give you more advice as I haven't side stitched by hand.

Hang in there.

Don

I have side stitched by hand. I just used an awl and a hammer to create the hole and stitched happily away.

It does take a long time.

I might try the standard craft 3 prong leather hole punches next time.

I've also used my curved needle stitcher.

If anyone has a straight needle stitcher they want to part with. I'd be interested!

Hey Nat,
I've never closed boots by hand BUT I am a saddler (saddlemaker) and have been for over 35 years. I've done an enormous amount of hand sewing.
It is easy as Rick implied. You can either tack your work in place. Line both halves and the welt up where you want them over a flat piece of steel and tap several (4 or 5) fine tacks through the leather on your stitch line so that they clinch themselves lightly on the steel, just pull each tack as you get up to it.

Or you can tie the two halves together in two or three places along the seam. Just make a hole on the stitch line right through the work. Run a thread with a knot in the end through the hole, come back over the edge to the front and go through the hole again and come back over the edge to the front. Go through the same hole again and knot the thread off and cut it short.

When you sew do a similar stitch to your inseaming stitch. Middle your thread in the first hole and sew towards yourself, passing each end of the thread through the same hole. Al Stolman's book on hand sewing explains it good.

If you use a blade awl it will be way easier to sew and the stitches will lay better, but it MUST be sharp and hold the blade at 45 degrees to the stitch line. I'd space the stitches about 5 or 6 to the inch. I don't usually use a stitch wheel I just eyeball my stitches (even on best show bridles)

More power to y'awl
Tom.

I've got some pics here but I have problems downloading from my Mac : (

Nat,

Some good advice has been offered here. Tom's input is right on. As far as hand stitched side seams, you can't beat them (if you know how to hand stitch).
You can also glue the welts and side seams to have a perfect alignment. I have an old stitching post that clamps and also use a pine board on my lap to make the awl holes (which only go into the wood and are made bigger after the fact).
I am a purist, so no synthetics. My side seams are all a 7 cord linen at 6-8 to the inch. Hand stitching is reserved for my 'higher end' boots. For the common stuff ie. same but sans hand stitching, I use a Junker and Ruh. I could use the Gritzner, but unsure if it will sew less a thickness such as mt 3 layers of 4-5 oz. Oak tanned.
Hope this helps.

Cheers,

JesseLee

Guys,
Thanks for the encouragement and advice. I'll gather up my awl and see how it goes.

Jesse,
I'm interested in the "stitching post" you mentioned. Can you explain more about what this is?


-Nat

Also; I'd like to stitch a toe bug on my next pair. Any thoughts on the easiest way to align it properly on the vamp so that when pulled over the last it lays where it's supposed to? I've tried several experiments, but so far haven't been satisfied with my results.

I'm curious, so duck if you need to; but the machine-gun of questions is locked and loaded.

Is "toe bug" the correct (most popular)term?
When/where did it first appear?
Has it always been purely decoration?
A toe bug seems like a signature of sorts. Do most makers have their own distinctive style?

OK... I'll pause and change barrels now.

-Nat

Nat,

Who knows where the toe bug originated or when...it is primarily (but not entirely) an ornament, so it is not, AFAIK, exclusive to boots or even Western European footwear. Some folks will tell you that it makes the shoe/boot look smaller and that if done with cording, it helps to control creasing. I'll buy that.

Cowboy boot makers use the term "toe bug" but that seems so colloquial I doubt that Europeans would have.

I can't speak for others but I inherited my toe bug pattern and then modified/clean-it-up. Is it a signature? Well, yes, but really there is nothing new under the sun. Even folks who claim to have invented or come up with a new stitch pattern, a new tool or variation on a tool are standing on the shoulders of others. It's all derivative...all of it.

As for placement, that has to be done pretty much by trial and error initially. When I started, I kept a record of where I placed toebugs relative to size and type of toe and made notes as to whether the results were satisfactory or not. Eventually I developed a way to find the proper location off critical points on the last...such as the high instep...and transfer that to the cut vamp.

One sure way to do this, however, is to last the boot and mark where you want the toe bug to be. Then pull the boot off the last and sew the toebug with a post machine. Not easy but doable.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

quote:
"Some folks will tell you that it makes the shoe/boot look smaller and that if done with cording, it helps to control creasing."
--------------
Controlling creasing is an interesting concept. I first heard of this while reading through the thousands of archived posts and I believe it was you DW who was describing pressing a "V" into boot tops to train them to fold properly when ankle is flexed. Recently I've been enjoying the book about Lucchese's "Lifetime With Boots". (Great book by the way. Surprising amount of good technical info and funny stories too). The book describes training vamp creases to encourage flex in the proper area. Never knew that the addition of cording was used to accomplish the same thing.

-Nat

Nat,

If you take two pencils (or two smooth bodied, slender pens) and place them about half an inch apart and parallel to each other over the forepart of a new shoe (unworn) and then have the customer put his knee on the ground while you hold those pencils firmly in place, it will force the initial creases in the shoe to be straight across the shoe and parallel.

After that, it's all a matter of proper fit and the idiosyncrasies of the individual foot. But cording does help.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

Well, I finally got a chance the other night to try side-seaming by hand. One of my main concerns was holding everything correctly while piercing through such a large thickness of material. I added a few temporary stitches at the vamp/counter to make sure they would stay put. (as suggested... thanks.) Turned out just fine and the seams are definitely tighter than my machine would have done.

As Saxton Temple Pope said: "And off they went, a happy, more enlightened bevy of children".

Will post some pics soon.
-Nat

I've never tried a proper side seam boot. Made a few for theatres, but I just machined them. Today I picked up a new set of stitching clamps which I think would work well for this application. Made by a local carpenter.