The Crispin Colloquy

Thanks Lance and D.W.

Courtney

(Message edited by Valeriy on December 13, 2009)I wish to express the opinion concerning the basic insole.
You cut out in an insole a lip as for a mechanical method. Durability of an insole thus weakens. And the main thing worsens elasticity of footwear. At such insole elasticity of footwear is hardly better than at a mechanical method. And only at the expense of a counter seam. Optimum elasticity of footwear is reached when sewed leaves on the middle of edge of an insole.
Yours faithfully Valeriy


(Message edited by Valeriy on December 13, 2009)

Valeriy,

Let me see, if i understood you or your robot translator here If you are saying that cutting a lip or hold-fast on insole weakens the durability of the insole,i agree,so how do you do your? a picture will be nice,if you have some time. do you make holes on flat insole,going in on one side and coming out the other side without a lip (hold-fast)?


Nasser

I hope this all clear?

Valeriy, Thank you,It is very clear how you prepare the insole,if i am not mistaken this is the way was/is done. Thanks again.

Nasser

Nasser,

I'm not sure...it looks like mine and I cut a feather and a channel as Thornton and several others recommend. What am I missing?


Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

DW:

Perhaps the inseam stitch is coming out the edge of the insole without a feather. If you look at the welt and the upper, they turn pretty much 90 degrees inside of the inseam stitch, which is what would happen if the inseam stitch came out the side of the insole. This is what Valery's comments seem to say (?) ...."Optimum elasticity of footwear is reached when sewed leaves on the middle of edge of an insole."

Lance

DW,

I don't remember seeing your insole preparation ,but here is what i think Valeriy has done,he doesn't cut any channel,but he stabs the insole flat on the surface (no cut)with his awl some distance from the edge and the awl comes out mid way or so through the width of the insole,but i don't know if he round the edge/feather or leaves it at 90 degrees as Lance mentioned,not rounding the edge may cut the upper leather.

Nasser

Valeriy,

Thanks for showing your insoling. Also thanks for trying to communicate in a foreign language.

Pictures sometime help me communicate better.

Using others comments and modifying a method I have used on 16th century shoes, I arrived at the following picture.

Is this correct?


Terry

Beginning as well as DWFII.Vot scheme:

On the inner part of the insole with a knife is undercut at an angle of 30 degrees at a distance of 18 mm for men's footwear and 14 mm for the female obuvi.Spusk insoles from the outer edge of the width of 4mm (if the thickness of the insole 4mm, then the angle will turn 45 degrees) when closed shve.I 3mm in open shve.Imenno in this case reached the maximum elasticity of shoes and its strength.

On a cowboy boot, is it proper to bevel the insole, at the heel, to match the back curve of the heel or leave it perpendicular to the ground?

I grind mine to follow the curve so you have a nice smooth transition when lasting.

Rick,

I trim mine just about like you have marked in red. But be careful...you can take this concept too far. Get into the waist and you might be trimming the insole such that it would be closer to skiving (or splitting) than beveling.

I also try to keep firmly in mind the concept of fair curves and my predilection to regard every line and every surface as better when handled with a certain aesthetic.


Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

All,

I have seen references from several well respected sources (among them Thornton) to beveling the insole in the heel seat area...presumably to accommodate the extra thickness of the heel stiffener.

Anyone do this? Can anyone illuminate the technique--how wide, how deep, etc.?

Or am I misinterpreting the technique?

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

I cut the insole straight i.e. with no beveling. The reason is to avoid the heel seat to be narrower then it should which will be the case if following the red line in Ricks photo above. When apprentice we where strongly "forbidden" to cut the insole beveled.

I did bevel the heel and I'm not sure I like the result. Now the heel seems too rounded off to me.

Not a disaster but seems less than desirable for getting a clean feather line at the heel.

Rick,
"Now the heel seems too rounded off to me. Not a disaster but seems less than desirable for getting a clean feather line at the heel."

This is the reason why we where taught not to bevel the insole. I didn't find the word in English in my last posting to explain it, thanks!

Rick, Janne,

First I would like to comment on this...

That's the way I was taught as well, Janne--don't bevel the heelseat. I was always taught that the insole will compress anyway...especially of the upper is tapped after lasting...so that it ends up shaped as if it had been beveled.

But it seems to be common practice now. And if the insole is left too full it will hang up on the upper or lining leather when the shoe is lasted. To tell the truth, I don't mind or worry about the heel being a little rounded. Again, if the upper is firmly tapped in all around the back of the heel some, if not most of that rounding will occur regardless. At least that's what I've experienced.

Janne, if you don't bevel the heelseat area, do you also cut the waist straight?

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

The other thing I wanted to say was that when I asked about heelseat beveling I was actually thinking about the fleshside surface of the heelseat--almost like skiving insole slightly around the back.

More like this:


That would allow the upper and the heel stiffener to be drafted over the heelseat and it would be flatter to the surface of the insole.

Does anyone do that?

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

DW,
we where taught to cut the insole straight all a round and it was an important thing to learn to last a shoe with as straight edges as possible, as shown in the photo. If that's so it is easier to continue the bottom the shoes.

DW:


After inspecting an insole done by a West End maker, I've started doing this. On his insole, the bevel is about 3/8 - 1/2 inch wide, and the edge of the insole around the heelseat is about the same thickness as the balance of the insole's edge.

Lance

ps
a big part of the lasting is done with the hammer a coupple of hours after the heel is lasted when the stiffener is about to dry. During this I shape the heel so it ends up with sharp edges. Also, a heel iron could be heated up and the heel seat will be ironed with a hot iron. The reason for this is that only the grain of the leather will be scraped away before the sole is put on,, all wrinkles should be lasted, hammered and irononed away. A grinder is not an option for this in trad European making.

Lance,

I'm confused...how can the edge of the insole around the heelseat be the same thickness as the balance of the insole if it has been skived/beveled?

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

Janne,

I never learned to apply a hot iron to upper leather. Can you post some photos and talk about the temperature that the iron should be...or not be?

Also what irons do you use?

And do you iron the upper--the vamp and quarters s well?

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

(Message edited by admin on April 14, 2010)