Shoe machines

[hrst]

Hello. I'm a novice from Nova Scotia and am visiting the Toronto area for the next few days. I wonder if there are any Crispin Brethern in the area who have the time and would be willing to show me around their shop and possibly answer a few questions. Thanks. Ron

[dearbone]

Ronald,

My shop is in Toronto and you are welcome to visit.
nasser.vies@gmail.com

Nasser

[clairemorgan]

Hello I am new to this forum.

I live in Hampshire GB I am looking for help and advice on buying a skiving machine and also a singer post machine. I have had 12 days of lessons in London but looking for a mentor to answer the odd question and help in sourcing the right materials. Most of my independent searching has sent me up blind or very expensive alleys.

Claire

[marcell]

Dear Clarie,


I guess you are on the best place then. Ask you questions here, or you can also contact me at info@koronya.com

Marcell

[chuck_deats]

Clarie,

Welcome, we can always use another Brit. Just ask your questions, review previous posts or report what works for you. This forum is the most helpful that I have seen. The search function is very helpful for a beginner.

Chuck

[admin]

Claire,

Welcome to the Crispin Colloquy. You can find answers to most of your questions here...and those that haven't already been answered, will be.

As for machines, technical questions are easy but where to find machines in GB is something else again. We do have a number of UK members here on the CC but I'm not one of them. Sorry.

Hopefully Frank or Peter or Mac will jump in here with a lead or two.

Emmett

[mack]

Hello Claire,
I am a shoemaker working in the UK and have a few contacts for you.
Try Wimbledon Sewing Machine Centre 02085425240
they may be able to point you in the right direction.
I bought my machines from Ebay.As Singer parts are very hard to come by you might want to consider a few different makes and I believe Pfaff are good. As for Ebay I got lucky as the seller was very helpful and I got good machines, you need to know what you are buying and the kind of use they have had.Have also seen a few skiving machines (expensive ).I reckon if you are just starting out and want to keep costs down you can manage without a skiver for now.You can also get some reasonable leathers for practice work at good prices.

For leather generally
A & A Crack and sons 01604874422. Can be expensive but worth a visit as they stock all kinds and grades.
Tools
Woodware Repetitions Ltd 01142726060
Lasts
Springline 01604644961
Grindery ,tools etc
www.algeos.com
also a German company called Goetz with a good catalogue of tools ,grindery ,even leather.They seem to prefer to work through agents and I have found them a little difficult to contact. I can get you more info if you wish.
Interested to here you did some training in London,who with and how was it ?
Regards Mack

(Message edited by mack on September 20, 2008)

[clairemorgan]

Thank you to Jim and Frank pointing me in the right direction with more information.

I think you are both right about trying to skive by hand. However I am going to see PW Merkle in Oct to have a look at the machines but that is industrial rather than home working. Ebay at the moment have fortuna skiving machines for about £700.00 but I don't know what I am looking at.

I went to see Paul Thomas in Bethnal Green. I really enjoyed the course and would recommend it. If I had lots of spare cash I would be there every week. Paul I found through the internet.

I should post a picture of my finished shoes on the gallery. I am very pleased with them and I WEAR them most days. But I did get a lot help.

Regards Claire

[cwsaddler]

There is a Gritzner Sole Stitcher plus manual on e-bay at http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&item=120 309930947

Jim Kladder

[erickgeer]

I get inquiries now and then regarding the Junker & Ruh SD-28 machines and the Pedersen version- due to my interest a few years ago.

The subject of needles and their reduced availability was gone through extensively. I haven't been seeking the machine out for quite some time, so I am not the best person to seek info from. Anyone searching for parts and manuals can probably have some success by Google-ing the full name of the J&R + model# - there are frequently German language copies of the manual on European E-bay.

A company out of Toronto has offered refurbished Pedersen machines- Google "Creative Leatherworks"

I hope this is useful for future inquiries into info on the machine.

Erick

[hrst]

Greetings all, and the best of holiday wishes. I'm interested in buying some machinery to further my journey and am seeking advice. I think I'm OK for hand tools, but what type of machine(s) should I be looking for? Should I go for a post machine or a flat bed type? What are the advantages of one or the other? There is a Landis Outsole machine for sale in my area- is this something that I would make good use of? Are there other machines, electircal or hand operated, that I should put on my long range wish list? I would appreciate any advice and input. Happy new year to all. Ron

[marcell]

It always depends - what you want to achieve with those machines? A post bed machine is a must in a workshop (except if you have an upper maker), an outsole machine is only needed if you want to stitch more than 2-3 pairs a day. I think you should post:

- what do you have already
- what do you intend to make with them...

and you will have very good advices (and save money).

[hrst]

Greetings, all. I'm seeking advice on machinery to purchase. Thank you Marcel, for your advice and by way of answer, the only piece of machinery I have is a Tippman "Boss" handstitcher. I have about 30 pairs of lasts, enough garment and hide leathers ( with a nearby source for more) and a binfull of hand tools. What I would like to be able to make are shoes for ladies and gentlemen. I have a copy of Tim Skyrme's "Bespoke Shoemaking" and of course, access to youtube. I feel that I'm ready to start sewing and have seen various machines for sale but don't really know which direction to head in. Is a rolling foot better than a walking foot, for example? I'm ready to sew the cut out leather patterns together and need a machine to do so. Any advice to be had from wiser hands than mine? Thank you, Ron

[dw]

Ron,

As Marcel says..."it all depends."

It's a little like buying a computer, really. Before you can know what you need you need to know what your are going to do...and pretty specifically. That includes not just the style of shoe you want to make but whether it is just for yourself and family/friends or whether you intend to market them. You need to know your target market--whether you can or want to cater to the high end only or whether you want you appeal to a different customer.

There are other factors as well but consider just those:

If you are intending to make just for your self and those around you, it doesn't make a lot of sense to get invested in machinery that will not pay you back. If you are intending to make a living at this then again you have to decide your target audience and that will decide for you. If you want to produce a steady stream of shoes at a modest price, an outsole stitcher makes sense, as does a finisher and perhaps a skiving machine...maybe even a bed laster.

If you want to cater to the top dollar connoisseurs of shoes and boots then maybe you don't need so many machines. One of the unique selling points of high end shoes is that many of the techniques are done by hand, with methods and materials that pre-date the Industrial Revolution.

I would bet that there are several high end makers on this forum who make really top shelf shoes in a space not too much bigger than the proverbial closet--no room for an outsole stitcher, finisher or skiving machine.

As for specifics, my recommendation...and I am by long experience a bootmaker, only relatively recently getting into shoemaking...is that you start with a post machine. Almost any job you need to do on a shoe can be done with a post machine. A roller foot is preferred and one that is driven is even better. A "walking foot" is to be avoided, in my opinion.

A flatbed sewing machine is a great tool to have especially if doing decorative work as it provided a stable platform for sewing but I would say it is better as a second machine than a first.

If by "I'm ready to sew the cut out leather patterns together and need a machine to do so," you mean a machine such as an hydraulic "clicker" to actually cut the leather for you...no, you don't! You don't need a machine to do that all you need is a sharp knife.

Remember, once upon a time it was said that shoes could be made with a knife, fork and spoon--and dern good ones, at that. The point is...and the history bears it out...is that shoes can be (and have been) made almost entirely by hand, for literally centuries. If you ever get to looking at examples of footwear made before the Industrial Revolution took hold--say from the 17th through the late 19th centuries--you may be astonished at the degree of finesse and refinement was brought to bear without even a sewing machine.

Start as simple as possible and learn the skills. Then you'll know what you need, what you can use, and what is fancifully unnecessary and taking up space.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[big_larry]

Ron,

I totally agree with Ron and D.W.. I have a post type walking foot machine that is functionally just a dust collector. It was the first machine I purchased and at that time I didn't know the difference between the roller feed and the walking foot, needle feed or a dog feed. The walking foot is definately NOT the machine for boot and shoe making.

I nearly purchased a curved needle machine to sew the outsole. My friend Don Walker (Master Boot Maker) offered to sew the outsole for me so I put off purchasing one. I have been using an awl for over two years now and have sewn over 80 pair by hand with good results. The skill and speed have much improved and now it is a fairly simble matter to sit down and hand sew the out sole to the welt after gluing the out sole on. Another advantage is that the curved needle limits you on thread choice and special conditions that only a hand sewen stitching can provide. An example is the "Norweigen Welt."

I would add one thing to what Ron and D.W. have said. It is very important to be able to "mechanic" your equipment. It is virtually impossible to hire a sewing machine mechanic every time the machine comes out of adjustment. I would counsel you to initially purchase only the machines that you can time, set the needle bar, adjust the tension and any other "tweeking" that will be necessary. I personally would not consider any machine that will not sew/stitch when you purchase it. "Basket Jobs" are notorious for ending up as door stops and boat anchors.

By the way, I use a knife and a pair of leather shears to do all my cutting except the insole and outsole leather. I do have a 5 in 1 machine to cut the thick stuff. I think purchasing some fine butcher grade sharpening stones and a 18 inch steel is a much better investment than any clicker while you are getting started.

Go slow and be sure you really need "stuff" before you run out and buy it. I am still making fitting boots out of a bunch of upholstry leather I purchased when I first started.

Best wishes,

Larry Peterson

[romango]

I have 3 machines that I use a lot. My small finisher, Pfaff 491 post bed sewing machine and skiver.

I could live without the skiver, but I like it.

I also have a curved needle stitcher which I have yet to get working to my satisfaction. It may turn out to be a boat anchor. (for a really big boat!)

[marcell]

Then my advices.. Buy exactly what Rick has:

- postbed sweing machine
- a small finisher
and if you can afford: a skiver.
Nothing more.

Only hand tools are needed to make beautiful shoes - I don't have any more actually, and many of us has just this set. What you need is experience, and maybe a good master. Tim and me made some conversation about this topic: he believes that shoemaking can be learnt from books I don't. It doesn't mean that you cannot make shoes from book, but if you want to achieve nice quality, you should find a master, helping you, sharing his experience with you - you will pay some money for him, but save much-much more on your expensive experiments. I say it as a shoemaker and a youtube "guru".

[large_shoemaker_at_large]

Post bed sewing machine, roller foot, a small finisher, sciver is nice, and a 5 in 1.
I have all the machinery but those are the ones that you should have, and what it takes to get going. (used to do a lot of repair).

There are a couple custom shoe makers near you, But off the top of my head I can't remeber where the live. Terry Trasck and Paul Kasden. Both been maken footwear for 25+ years. I live in Sask so if you are ever wandering around in the west drop by.
Regards
Brendan

[hrst]

I'd like to thank you all, DW, Marcell, Larry, Rick and Brendan, for your cogent comments- they're very helpful and practical, and I'll keep them written down. In exposing my ignorance, I confess that I've never heard of a "finisher" , small or otherwise, nor a "5 in 1". What functions do they perform? Thank you all again. Ron

[marcell]

The finisher makes you the hard job of forming the heel and the sole edge. Like these:

http://www.atlasortho.com/sub%20Products/Tools_and_machinery/machinery/hardofloo rfinishers.htm#HARDO%20Spezial%2085B

The 5 in 1 is a machine which is not a must, but not bad, and can be used for a lot of things:

http://www.shoesystemsplus.com/5in1bench.html

Marcell

[romango]

Ron,

Vocabulary is very important. I'm sure that, in any art form, it is something you get better at as you go along. On the forum, we want to answer your questions but we don't want to be insulting by using overly simple descriptions. That's because we're not sure where you are coming from, vocabulary-wise.

I didn't even join this forum for 2 years because I felt unworthy to ask questions! This was a mistake, in retrospect.

I was equally shy at my local leather store. Once I had a working shoemaker's vocabulary, I realized that my vocabulary was only tangential to theirs. In other words, they mostly had no idea what I was asking about.

"Shoe leather, what's that?"

I learned to be more assertive and view the interaction as co-educational.

So, having said that.... A finisher is a sanding machine. It has circular sanders, of various radius or grit, that are helpful in various shoe operations that would otherwise need to be done with a file or knife.

It may also have a trimmer that can cut a clean sole edge and a heel breaster that can get into the tricky space in front of the heel.

The finisher also has a vacuum dust management system. This is very important as leather dust can be irritating to the lungs.

The 5 in 1 has a number of functions. 5, so I'm told. I only use it for cutting very thick leather, however, which I occasionally just do on my band saw.

Hope this is helpful.

[mac]

Ron,
All three items mentioned above are available at Landis Letendre in Montreal. (Just google them they are probably your closest supplier. You may have some options in the eastern US that are impractical for me in BC) They supply a lot of new and refurbished machines. I am very happy with the Singer post bed machine I purchased a few months ago.

I agree with Brendon: You may want to contact some of your local people first as they may have upgraded equipment and have old stuff lying around getting rusty. I just saw Terry Trask when I was in Halifax last month for a pedorthic seminar. He is based out of Saint John, New Brunswick and is a very friendly guy. (like all Maritimers)

I have had bad luck so far with my e-bay purchases of hand tools. Most of them look fine in pictures but are unusable in real life when they show up at my doorstep. Some great deals are to had but I fear I am competing with some of you on the Colloquy when bidding on these auctions

Good luck in your search!

Sean

[hrst]

Thanks to the many who have offered guidance, websites and advice- it really is a big help. I've purchsed a Techsew GC-810 post machine with a heavy duty roller foot from Raphael sewing in Montreal and it should be here by next week. I think that this should keep me occupied for a while and that time will reveal more precisely what additional machinery would make sense for me to have. So, little steps. (Is there any way to talk about this craft without making a pun?) Thanks again and happy new year to all.

[marcell]

A new beauty in my workshop - a clicker. 1000 kg heavy and can press with around 10 tons. It will be a great help with the ballet shoes, an leather heel cuttings.. and actually many more things. I am happy.

8962.jpg

[marcell]

Ohh sorry: thanks for the Photo for Kieran and Ana - they will join to the community very soon, as new shoemakers finished an intensive 5 weeks course with me. Thanks!