The Crispin Colloquy

Bunny,

Mine has a list on page 126 and 127. Maybe those pages are missing in your edition?

ANyway, I'd say persevere with MacPherson. There are very few who put up a web catalog. There's real value in having a relationship with a supplier in this trade. Let them get to know you. Respect for their time and enthusiastic questions will win out.

Yes, crepe can be used in layers for heels. So that if you should order, say 12 iron or 1/4" crepe to use as a sole, you'd probably be good with a layer or two at the heel, depending on your foot's arch. You said you were not using lasts on this pair, but when you do, pay attention to the proper heel height for the last as to how high the heel would be that you would add on.

Good luck,

Paul

Nope, not mine. Page 126 has Lazy Day Slipper and the Glossery is on 127.

Still no soleing material. MacPherson's told me they only sell crepe to shoe repair stores. This really sounds like a "controlled" substance, or even a monopoly. I can't imagine that the amount of people making their own shoes in America would jeopardize the sole industry. Needless to say I am very disappointed and pretty much very angry. I guess the only alternative to this problem is to return to using leather which is not controlled by any industry and can easily be obtained.
Bunny

I know this is going to sound flip but in this as in any other field you have to "play the game and know the rules."

Naturally, McPhersons is not going to sell to the public. They are a wholesaler. If they sold to just anyone, their main customer base--the shoe repair shops and the shoemakers--would be up in arms. If you want to buy from McPhereson's or any other finder you have to be a shoe repair shop or a shoemaker. Now, I have always thought that was a silly attitude--if you've found them you are already not run-of-the-mill-public, but, of course, it doesn't make any difference what I think.

But the point is that if you are learning to make shoes, you're an "honorary" shoemaker or, to make it short and sweet--a shoemaker.

If you can't make that claim in earnest, then just go down to the local shoe repair shop and buy a set of crepe soles from them.

And as my old granny used to say "you'll catch more flies with honey than vinegar."


Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

Yes Bunny,

I really think that if you approach it from the side of your ernest interest, you'll come away winners.

Paul

To All
Its not a matter of weather or not you are earnest or sincere it has everything to do with being a registered business with a tax number / Federal ID No.They don't want to have to collect /or pay the taxes on what you buy.Trust me its alot of paper work and it adds to your bottom line,or should I say takes away from your bottom line. Thats why they are called wholesalers .
Hope this helps.

Larry Waller
www.walrusshoe.com

Not to argue the point, but I would think that a company with a website that takes "paypal" to purchase glue would be considered selling to the public. There is also a broken link on the shoe page that says "rubber products". Evidentally the link is not broken but a come on. May I call a spade a spade? These type of sales tactics erk me to no ends, along with lawyers and car sales men. Needless to say MacPherson is off my list of potential suppliers, so with that in mind, can anyone recommend the "El Paso Shops" I would have to order COD, but at least they will sell to me. I was also sent to Ruby Leather, do you think they are wholesaler also?

In all honesty I can't even consider dealing with a wholesaler and I know there are "real" people out there that will have what I want. I would rather support real people than fictional entities. But I do like recommendations.

Bunny

Bunny
Ruby is a Wholesaler.Some Wholesalers are setup to sell retail as well,just a different price structure.
Larry Waller
www.walrusshoe.com

Bunny,

(J)ust (F)or (Y)our [actually anyone's] (I)nformation...I have been dealing with Oregon Leather, Arensberg (now McPheresons), as well as Ruby Leather, (AND E.H. Hall, Keystone, Milton-Sokol, Lyons & Volpi, and many other wholesalers) for literally decades. I have never had a tax number (Oregon doesn't require them) nor have I ever been asked for one...that I can recall.

Nor have I ever had any trouble buying materials from any of them...even at the very beginning when I didn't even know what to ask for.

Go figure.

I would suspect that if you called up and asked for Jim McPhereson and told him that you were learning to make shoes and that I recommended them (which I do and did), you would have no problems.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

It's not a matter of being a tax exempt entity, I have no intention of getting Number. But however, taxes have not, ever, ever been imposed upon mail order, out of state business transactions. This only occurs when a business has an outlet in the state where they are sending products. This has been Federal law since day one under the interstate commerce clause. For me it really is a rather lame excuse for not making a small person's day. But that is their choice.

Tight Stiches, I thank you oh so very much for the offer, but I couldn't possibly impose upon your good name for a business transaction. Things like that make me feel very out of place and I would prefer paying a higher price to stay within my comfort zone than to have to experience rejection. I am not very good at name dropping. I will get the crepe from either El Paso or Sharon Raymond. Thanks guys.
Bunny

Hi Bunny,Southern Leather in Denver,Ask for Mary,Baltor in South San Francisco,Panhandle in Amarillo,Texas,Frankford Leather and Shoe findings in Philadelphia,Ok,I understand your frustrations.I think some of the supplliers are like opportunities to improve our communication and powers of persuasion skills,.Materials are getting harder to obtain across the board.Maybe you have already exhausted the above ,and if you can't locate them ,I'll get the #'s for you ,I think patience is a virtue,and a Tool......, Fred

Patience is not in my vocabulary. Actually I did not find any of those googling. You can pm me and give me their #'s, I would appreciate that muchly.

I ordered some crepe, sole and heel stuff, not knowing what I am looking for I don't know what I am asking for. Kind of like a blind woman ordering a painting instead of a sculpture.
Bunny

Bunny,Southern Leather ,Denver 800 525-9302;O'Baltor,S.San.Fran.,800 622 5867 ,Frankford Leather,Phily.800 245-5555;Pan Handle Leather 800 537 3945.Try Mary @ Southern Leather 1st.You might want Soleflex in 55 Durometer,smooth on 2 sides It is also available with a pyramid grain for outsoling ,I recommend aTopy sole a little over 1/16th " in thickness OK,Fred

I have been trying to sew my outsoles on by hand. I can get the stitching to line up on the top of the welt but I'm having trouble hitting the channel on the bottom of the outsole.

Is there a techinque or a trick to hitting the channel every time or do I just need to pracitice more? Also, what kind of awl is everyone using for this?

Thanks for your help, Joel

Joel, Have you tried putting your awl through the channel first and come out at the top, That way you are making smaller holes on the top, which is better for the welt.
Nasser

I'm no expert at this technique and if it is just a matter of getting the outsoles sewn on, I'm sure that there are many ways to skin a cat. But traditionally the awl used, is what is known as a "square awl." And the holes are made perpendicular to the edge of the welt...and from the welt side.

Of the several times that I have done this, the first time I cut a vertical channel just like a curved needle stitcher would cut. That was a pretty hard channel to hit without some practice.

The second time I did this, I cut a horizontal channel with an antique channel knife made for just that purpose. But the covering leather was so thin that I needed to cut a groove in the under-leather so that the stitches would not show through as "shadows" on the outsole surface. The tool I used was made with a built in groover for just that purpose, as well.

All other times, including the last time...and, for the future...I have cut the channel at about a 30° angle in from the edge of the outsole. The "covering" leather ends up being thick enough that you don't need to worry about the stitches showing through and the channel itself is forgiving enough that you don't have to worry...too much...about hitting it exact every time.

Of course, it would be better if you did. But it will come, I'm sure.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

This is how my mentor did it, You see where he is starting to make the hole, I continued doing it the same way until now, Others may do it their way, But in this shop holes for outsoles are made from the sole side, With time and practice your awl will come out the top on the right spot.

Nasser,

Thanks, I will give your way a try next time. I really liked the horizontal channel you posted on the last page. Seems like it would be easier and you don't have to be spot on.

DW,

The horizontal channel your talking about is the same one Nasser posted on the last page?

Thanks Joel

Joel,

I can't answer for Nasser, but it looks like he may be cutting it by hand, which might result in a slightly thicker "covering" leather maybe even a tapered cover. Which isn't too far from the angled channel that I am cutting.

One of the drawbacks of the horizontal channel...at least as it was produced by my antique channel cutting tool...was that the covering leather tended to wear thin very fast and then the sole had these scraps...flaps...of leather hanging loose on the bottom. I've had customers complain about this because, for a while, it looks really raggedy. And this, after I had glued the channel down with celluloid cement.

As I said, with the horizontal channel I felt I needed to groove the underlying leather in order to "hide" the stitches. If you do that, you're right back where you started trying to "hit the mark."

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

Joel, Two things the boot or shoemaker must master well, Knife sharpening & proper thread making and hatred of machines which this luddite added, Having said that, If you decide to to cut your sole channel horizontal, There is wisdom in what DW said about the flaps, I personly prefer the vertical channel (lip), with holes made from the sole side one at a time as sewing proceeds. All the best to you.
Nasser

(Message edited by dearbone on November 11, 2007)

Not that I am an expert or skilled with these tools I designed yet.I have an antique channel knife an it cuts to shallow for my liking also.While reading HMSFM the maker cut half way through the bottom sole.I made a knife for cutting, out of a small hex wrench,which does a good job then I took a deer antler(tine) sharpened it on an angle it serves to cut an make a lip to hide the bottom stitches no matter what they look like on the bottom.Again I have not done enough hand sewing to be skilled but those two tools are right for the job IMHO.

Ed

I was surfing and found rubber/neoprene soling and a few lasts along with a lot more listed from Sierra Boots. I believe that Bunny was looking for a web based finder so I figured some others might also be interested.
http://www.elpasoshops.com/cgi-bin/plugins/MivaEmpresas/miva?plugins/MivaMerchan ts/merchant.mvc+Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=sierra&Category_Code=RUBBER
FWIW, Lyle

Nasser, DW

Thanks for your help.

I think cutting the channel a little bigger and deeper should help alot.

Joel

DW
My humble apology to you, stitching of the alpine welt starts from the sole side, But the goodyear (Dress) welt the stitching starts at the top.

Hey Nasser,

You don't have to apologize. This is a "Colloquy"--a discussion--not a contest. Some folks just can't seem to come to terms with that. You and I may discuss the pros and cons of our respective techniques "til the cows come home" but it doesn't mean either one of us has the ultimate answer.

If we can't do that then we can't learn (and admittedly, there are some folks that are past the point of learning in their lives). But learning begins with an acknowledgement that there are people and sources and "authorities" who have more experience and more wisdom than we ourselves have. And that we can..indeed, to progress, we must...pay them due respect.

So we start with the traditions and the accumulated wisdom that has been passed down to us--whether it be from our teacher or from the great master shoemakers of the past. And once we perfect those skills...for better or sometimes for worse...we try to develop ways to "improve" or extend that knowledge. We all do it and it's as natural as breathing. We just need to have the reserve...the serenity...to understand what is valuable and what is dross.

But if we can't suggest that there might be a reason for doing it another way, and have a colleague come back with a rationale for doing it the time-honoured way, without getting our feelings hurt--as if we ourselves had invented any of this!!--then we might as well sit mum. It would be better than burdening our friends with our angst.



Sorry for the sermon...you just caught me in a reflective moment.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC