The Crispin Colloquy

TJ,

I've seen something like that used at New Balance. It was computer operated, not hand steered and I'm sure price wise at least 10 fold if not 100 fold.
It sews an upper, all the small detailed pieces in a matter of minutes.
Looks like a nice machine. I wonder how it holds the material and if leather would be harder to hold in place.

Thanks for posting that.

Rob

I just bought this 80 years old singer cílinder bed, left side handed machine. It is a very rare machine even here in Hungary.

Sorry, I forgot to mention: this machine is mainly used to make long riding boots. I am so sure that the seller didn't know what it is, and how much it worth, because in the other case he wouldn't sell me for 70 USD. First I didn't believe my ears, than I paid and run.. It makes perfect sewing, but I don't have any manual woth it. Maybe someone has something for it?
type: 18-3

I got some manuals with very poor pictures. [img]http://www.thehcc.org/forum/images/old_smilies/sad.gif"%20ALT="sad[/img]

Wow, it's great to get suprirse treasures, things you appreciate more than the seller does. It looks a lot like my 45K35, which I believe used to be treadle or overhead belt drive. I believe it is from the 1930s. If I can manage to throw in a picture I will, since I have one, for whatever anyone may tell me about it. It is shown just sitting on a different table. I only use it rarely, for canvas tent work, so I've absconded with its own table as a workbench, for lack of space.
Jenny in NS

well, it says it has my images there; we shall see. I told you I had nerve at times.
Jh in NS

(Message edited by jhstewart on January 22, 2008)

Actually - I am quite sure in it - it is used in the making process of old Hungarian style boots - similar than English riding boots. You can watch the process - more or less - this video. For sure: the traditional method takes MUCH more time and effort.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=1GywJyj0DYs

Hi $500. dollars is a good price for most equipment but very good for an insole stitcher.

I have only used lockstitch insole machines so if it is a chainstitch the parts and pieces may be a little different. You have to check and most likely replace the whirl and spindle located in the horn of the machine. These pieces wear down and are easily replaced. You also have to check 2 or 3 roller bearings where the thread slides over. These areas get gumbed up with wax and the bearrings will no longer roll and the thread will cut a groove into the metal and then the metal will do likewise to the thread.

you can check online for suppliers who carry manuals I know Landis Letendre in Quebec has them and could probably fax a copy to you, and Labelle in British Columbia should have them as well. Warkoff Safer in Winnepeg probably will not who knows, and then there are several suppliers Stateside that all carry this type of machine.

Also ask if the motor has been changed. I have ran into companies that have a 3 phase motor installed when all you need is a single phase. All you need to do is replace the motor changing the electric's to your house for a hobby is a little over the top. LOL

Guy Shannon

A question:

I am looking at purchasing a Pedersen hand sole stitcher. I have 3 questions. 1- Does it have a feed or must you manually determine the next stitch. 2- What is a fair market price for one of these. 3- Does it stitch the welt close to the shoe, or do a wire welt.

Thanks for any help.

JesseLee

Jesse,

I have/use a Junker SD-28--what the Pedersen is copied from. It's a needle-feed system: the needle pierces the work, the shuttle whips around forming the lock-stitch, then the needle pulls the work over as is riases up in position for the next stich on the down-stroke. Stich length is adjustable from maybe 3.5-4 spi to "zero" where it will dewll into the previous hole. This makes it good for repair, because you can set it at "any" stitch-length to match existing holes.

It stitches from the welt downward, and by slightly tilting the shoe as it feeds you can get up very close to the upper if you're careful the needle doesn't rub/scar the upper.

I have no idea on current prices. The Pedersen model was retailing new trough Goetz in the 1980s for $4,200! The nice old Junker SD-28s could be bought easily in the '80s, in the UK, for around $75 in working order.

DA, Thanks a million, thats what I needed to know. WOW! Hope this guy is selling a lot cheaper than that.. I'll pass this on to my partner. I thought it may stitch 'welt up'. Wonder how it would be for side seams?

Cheers,
JesseLee

Jesse,

You're welcome. As for side-seaming, I'm not confident. The needles are chisel-pointed and make a somewhat slit-hole like this: I I I I I I not holes like: o o o o o o. The machine did have various needle-plates made for it: one for leather soles with a channel guide (lip); one for crepe rubber soles, and one for flat harness strap-stitching that vas dead flat, a bit larger table area than the others, and with a roller guide at the back to set the distance in from the edge. I have made heavy pistol leather holsters and knife sheaths one mine, but I think it may be a bit too "strong" for a boot side-seam. Also, the presser foot on mine won't go any lower than ___, so putting material through it that's thinner than the foot-drop won't get any pressure-foot control. The foot doesn't drop down as low as the needle plate when empty IOW, there's always a gap there. The thread tension tends to be pretty tight, too, and my guess is it might need to be fiddled with to sew that "light".

TJ,

I saw something similar to the machine you are describing that has a steering mechanism. It is made by Techsew (Chinese company) and can be found at http://www.shop.raphaelsewing.com/ . Look under the 'Industrial Sewing Machines' category and then scroll down to the 'Techsew GB2972 Leather Patcher'. They have pictures and even a video of the steering mechanism. I don't know anything else about the machine, but for $859 it is quite a bit less than the machine you saw on TV. It looked pretty interesting the way it is controlled.

-Eli

Edit: Forgive the sewing newb. the 360 degree is nothing new. But on a side note does anybody use this feature?

(Message edited by ekarr on January 25, 2008)

Dee-Dubb,

Did you get a servo motor? If so....what's the verdict? I've always been interested in trying one.

Jake

Jake,

I purchased a Pfaff 471 post machine with a servo motor. The 471 is just like the 491 except the post is turned around...where the 491 sews on the left-hand side of the post, and threads from the left, the 471 sews on the right-hand side of the post and threads from the right. The presserfoot wheel runs to the left of the needle just as it does on the 491.

With regard to the servo motor...it's like getting a new wife...you have to get used to one another. And if the first wife is still around (my old Singer 136) you have a tendency to turn to it for comfort in times of stress. So, I am not wholly comfortable with the servo motor. But the flywheel on this pfaff is low on the machine and so driving with my hand up on the flywheel is difficult and awkward anyway--I'm not sure whether that is a factor.

I can see that the whole machine is a great step forward in terms of positive feed and consistent stitching. I may come to appreciate the servo motor but I think I could probably control the 136...with my hand on the flywheel...just a well and just as predictably as I will be able to when I get used to the servo motor.

So all in all, I would say that I didn't gain all that much, didn't lose all that much. Since I only paid $100.00 or so extra for the servo motor, I would say...in expectation that I will learn it...that I would do it again.

Overall I am happy with the Pfaff...the only real problem I have with it is that it is very difficult to adjust the stitch length. Once I get it where I want it, it sews better than any other machine I've ever owned.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

PS...Mr. Kay at Melanie Machine came through again--the price was right, the machine was in very nice condition and Melanie had just tuned it. And when I got it home and realized that some parts were missing (a thread armature for the bobbin wider) and one part worn out (a bobbin case spring), Mr. Kay ordered and sent those parts immediately no extra charge.

Oh, by the way...Mr. Kay threw in a full operators manual and parts list in a three ring binder--nice touch.


Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

(Message edited by dw on January 28, 2008)

DW:

FWIW (and you probably know this), if the 471 is like my 491, you can move flywheel up to the top of the machine; of course, with the servo you may not need to drive with one hand on the wheel!

Lance

Lance,

I heard that somewhere previously...might even have been from you. Thank you for reminding me, however. I might look at that, just out of curiosity.

I have a belt cover assembly on my machine and I don't think it is set up for an elevated flywheel. I don't suppose that's a real impediment but I'm not all that determined to raise it, anyway. I can just barely exert the most minimal control over the machine through the flywheel and I put my hand there mostly out of habit and not knowing what else to do with it.

Top that off with the fact that I needed to raise the table to get my knee under it and lift the post up to a reasonable level and it would be a stretch if the flywheel were higher.

A lot of bootmakers were trained using the hand as a controller, though, and Jake was a student of mine some years back. For us it's a definite and perhaps awkward transition.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

I recently purchased a Singer post machine that had been refurbished by an expert. I spent the next 100 or so yards trying to get it to stitch correctly - it bunched up on the underside, broke thread, basically pained my neck. Then I went back to my flat-bed Singer to get the hang of sewing - same thing. HUH!
I hand-sewed the uppers of a pair I needed to finish, then went on to another pair.

Then I tried the correct weight thread on the top - same darned thing! Bunch up on the bottom, break thread, pain my neck.

I asked Penny what I was doing wrong. She watched me stitch for a second, then suggested that I hold both threads, top and bobbin, to the rear of the machine. THAT must be what I'm doing wrong!

I tried it, and son-of-a-gun if it didn't still bunch up and break.

What the heck??!!??!?!?

Think! What is it doing?

Well, it didn't always break the bobbin thread, sometimes it only split it, or frayed it. It's like it's too thick, or something.

I asked Peny if I could borrow her expertise again - she's pretty sewing machine savvy.

"Do the top thread and the bobbin thread need to be the same size?"

Well, of course! What are you using?

Darned if that didn't cure the problem! I just machine sewed my first complete upper, and the stitches look pretty darned good!

Listen to your wife!

O, by the way - this machine has the servo motor (if that's the correct name for the motor that slows down) and I love it! I have it slowed to about 3 stitches every 2 seconds. At that speed, however, I need to help the flywheel a bit to get it started.

HI Bruce,
Sometimes a sewing machine is just a sewing machine. Here is a thing generally true of sewing machines: IF the problem with the stitching is on the underside of the seam, teh problem is probably caused by the upper thread; if the top is bad then suspect the bobbin. I have an old Singer Post machine, and when I got ti the feller said to be sure to hold the thread tails til it got started. In my other machines I know I can use threads of unequal weight, but it takes a bunch of tinkering with the tension to accomodate the difference. I tend to prefer not to tinker with bobbin tension. Generally your bobbin tension is right if you can hang the bobbin in it's case, holding it by the thread, and have it not run out, nor have it resist much. so many horrid seeming stitich problems are a matter of needles, thread, and tension. If nothing else, they certainly creat tensin in the operator! Hope this helps.
Jenny in Nova Scotia

Well, I've been making/ruining uppers for the last several days. I bought some $2 a foot hide and am making and scrapping. Of course, all these shoes started OUT as product for sale (I have a few customers) but my best advertising is a quality product, and these were less than that.

Sewing machine error is the culprit - TECHNIQUE! If I were hand sewing, I'd have at least three pairs done by now. I used to think that a sewing machine would speed up the process. Maybe it will, once I've bought the machine AGAIN in material cost!

As Charlie Brown would say,

"AAARRRGGGHHH!!!"

I too have been having problems with the Gritzner I bought. Just can't get it to stitch properly. I noticed if I pull the upper thread it works better but still I would like to work better. If anyone has any suggestions on using it I'm open to it. I seriously/half heartedly have been considering putting it up on ebay.

bunny

For all you Post-Bed experts out there, I'd like some advice. I'm in the process of learning on a Singer 51w28. It's a bit quirky, but once I hand-turn the wheel a few times, the bobbin seems to get "comfortable" and allow me to hit the clutch and make a nice stitch. I can sew pretty nice straight lines with the motor, but when I want to slow down and make a few stitches by turning the wheel by hand, the lines get squirrelly, especially when I have a very narrow strip of material under the wheel. (I usually need to sew right near the edge of my material) Is that just the curse of the roller foot, or am I missing something? I wish I had a reverse lever, which would probably fix my problems. Should I trade for a walking-foot model?

Ya know, I saw a singer walking foot model on ebay. He wanted $200 for it. The outside had been spray painted red of all things, but interior shots of it was sparkling, shiny clean. I dismissed it for a post machine I'm going to look at. The Walking foot is probably still there, with a buy it now price. I think it ends tomorrow or the next day.
Bunny

Doug,

You say you have to get the bobbin "comfortable" does the machine make stitches before the bobbin gets to the point you describe or does it skip?
If the machine is in good condition and does not have an unusual amount of play between the parts there is no reason for it to sew in a squirrelly line. What is likely happening is by reaching for the wheel you shift your body and thus affect the direction you feed the leather from. Small shifts can still show up as significant squirrellies in your sewing.

Try to get a speed reducer on the machine or a different motor that is easier to control. Practicing also helps.

Just my

Rob