The Crispin Colloquy

What kind of leather do you take for the vamp if you´re making a working boot or a boot mainly for riding?

Horst,

While the two may seem to be the same...and there is plenty of overlap...they are not necessarily the same. A work boot may be used for riding...and vice versa...but a work boot needs to meet certain criteria that a riding boot doesn't necessarily have to meet.

For a work boot, I have really begun to like an oil stuffed cow hide that Hartke is carrying. Not the Novo calf but their regular "oil tan." [The Novo calf is too soft. Too "plump."] It's firm, heavy--6-7 ounce--and well dyed.

Riding boots can be made from a lot of different materials...from bullhide (I hate it) to buffalo calf to elephant to shark. About the only criteria that I have for a riding boot is that it be "struck through" and be firm enough and heavy enough to stand some rubbing in the stirrup. I wouldn't automatically designate kangaroo as a good riding boot leather...although some customers might. And they're the final word when it comes to their own boots, aren't they?

Hope that helps...

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC


Ask for Loy, he'll know what you want.

DW
Bullhide, you hate it. What makes you feel that way? I have two pair on the burner to make of bullhide. I'd like to have an idea what I'm getting myself into. It is awfully thick. I'm prepared to skive it on the edges of the vamps and counter covers, what else should I worry about? Is it hard to crimp?
PK

DW, PK,

Well, I hate bullhide too, but not because it is
not good leather. It is the next thing to Elephant and being heavy(thick) is very good for hard wear. I know, some so called bullhide may not be from a bull. But I believe that the Taurus from Hardtke is genuine Bull shoulders. I hate it because it is hard to work and there is a lot of waste in a shoulder which makes it more expensive than something else in the long run. But I have never seen a piece of Calf that is immune to cracking and the Bullhide is thick enough that it lasts longer against the cracking. I also hate it because most people like a toe flower and IT doesn't like toe flowers. It also doesn't hold an inseam well. I do like the pebble grained Caribou that Hardtke has and that is what I recommend when someone wants bullhide. Most factory boots are not made from the Taurus that Hardtke has but a cheaper substitute.....TR

Tex,
Thanks for your input. I also understand that the Taurus from Hardtke is genuine shrunken shoulder Bull hide. They told me their tanning involves leaving the hair on thru part of the process to get the texture that is unique to them.
When you say it doesn't hold an inseam well, that's sure something to know about. What do you do to support or reinforce it? More shaping of the insole at the feather? Maybe skiving the edge down some? Whatelse could be done?
Thankfully neither of my guys want a toe bug. So I caught a break there.
After looking at the shape of the hide and considering what you're saying about useable leather, I'll have to charge more next time.

PK

Paul,

You asked why I don't like bullhide. Well, Tex touched upon it--I was told by someone I trust in the industry that "bullhide" was not really bullhide but actually a hide from an old animal that had been shrunk to tighten up the grain. That's what causes the heavy texturing in the leather. You see, as an animal gets older the fibers get further apart. Calf skin is premium because the animal is young and the leather is tight. The leather tanners have a hard time selling leather from older animals, so they came up with this method of fooling the buyer. But the trouble is that most of that tightness is lost when the leather is wet and crimped or lasted. I don't know how many times I have lasted a bullhide boot...with lots of texture in the leather...only to have the leather "flatten" out over the toe. It ends up looking strange and artificial to my eye. So even though most of the shrunken shoulders out there are probably cow or steer (what's the ratio of bulls to cows in a herd?) even if it was truly from a bull it still would be from an old animal.

BTW, if you are worried about the inseam breaking out...on any pair of boots...you could try putting in a midliner. That's an old an venerable technique and one that works.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

DW,

Seeing as how the Colloquy is the only source of 'old venerables', I have to draw upon, could you or someone else expound upon the 'midliner technique'. It sounds like a slim midlining along the welt edge, not extending over the foot. Is that right? Would it be glued to the vamp or the liner?

PK

Bulls 1 cows 25 in a herd - what a deal.
Remember steers are boys too. Not to many steers get a whole lot of age on them.

Paul,

Well, if you've seen a copy of Handmade
Shoes For Men (dern, my library got moved out to the shop...I can't tell you the author but it's available on Amazon.com) you can see the technique in photos, at least as it's applied to shoes.

You are right though, it is a "liner" that goes between the liner and the vamp. I generally extend mine an inch or so above the inseam and run it up and into the side seam in lieu of "fenders." The photos in HSFM, show the midliner being put in as the shoes are being lasted. It sort of lays in there loose. Of course, it's skived along the top edge so that it doesn't show through the vamp.

For myself, I generally make them of top lining--about three ounce veg or firm chrome--glue them onto the flesh side of the vamp with latex...or I'm gonna try some HirschKleber for this...and then proceed to put the vamps on the tops, etc..

One of the further advantages of a mid liner is that is, supposedly, stiffens the boot and keeps it from running over. Sort of like extending the counter.

Hope that helps.

Gary...makes you wonder if all these "bullhides" are really bull...whose doing the job that bulls normally do? Sometimes steers are known as "veal" from what I've been told. If they go to slaughter young I doubt that they would have so much trouble with the quality of the leather that they'd need to shrink it. Don't you?

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

I could add a bunch of useless debatable info. and I will People use improper names and descriptors. Like "look at those bulls" and actually there cows with horns, or "look at that colt" and it’s a filly. Things like that. So who knows what "bull hide" should actually be?? You would think from bulls. I have always understood bull hide is a particular portion of hide not necessarily from bulls. Yes, theoretically if a steer lived longer the hide should be very similar to bulls. Yet, without the testosterone who knows. Veal should be from a young calf maybe just a few months old usually in a very restricted area. Buuttt since its costly to keep them in such a manner, I'm sure older animals are used and just labeled veal. Sounded like a rant didn't it?

Handmade Shoes for Men

Laszlo Vass & Magda Molnar
Photography Georg Valerius.

ISBN 3-89508-928-1

Laszlo Vass is a custom shoemaker from Budapest.
Great book.

Cheers.
Jon.

Paul
We also handle that book I have it in stock. Thanks
Larry Waller
Walrus Shoe & Leather Co.LLC
Phone 1.262.882.6006
Or email for info Larry@walrusshoe.com

DW,

That's what I thought. I think I've seen it on some old hand mades I've repaired back in the eighties when I was at Western Boot Service. Why the water base cement over contact cement?


Larry,
I had noticed you carried Hand Made Shoes for Men when you sent me your book list. I think it's great that you have such a great list of relevant books. I got my copy from Proleptic/Shop Talk before I became familiar with you all. I haven't made any Uggs from the book I got from you, but I sure am proud to have the Koleff design book. Can't wait for his 'how to'.

PK

Paul,

I'd like to use a water based cement like HirschKleber on several places on the boot because I have a suspicion that it will breathe better than contact cement. I hate to seal the boot up anywhere but don't have either the skills nor the experience to eschew contact cement altogether. However, I am trying a water based contact cement, too, just because I'd like to get away from the fumes in my old age. I suppose that the damage is done but I'm not sure an old liver will handle tolulene as well as a young one.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

DW just be sure to check the MSDS as many water based cements use formaldahyde which comes to us old farts soon enough. I too wish I could get away from tolulene and mek. Let us know if you find something.
T Mattimore

DW
If you really would like to try another cement/glue, we use one you might like. It can be used as a contact glue or just as a glue. It is based on acetone. As I understand it, there are two kinds of acetone. The glue we use is based on the less dangerous of the two. We use it on just about everything. I've never tried to use it on a complete resoling for a cowboy boot, but we use it when we put a new sole on the military boots we do for the soldiers. Apart from that we use it on leather half soles on mens shoes. Just to finish this off we use it to glue inside the shoe or boot.

If you like I'll send you the name of it from work on Mon. (lunch break) The only thing that could cause problems is that it comes from Norway and is made in batches for us.

CW

Chris,

Yes, please let me know what it is...mostly for curiosity's sake. I use an acetone based cement that was historically used on half-soles...with a press.

Tom,

The water based cement I got from Upaco cement doesn't smell at all. And the MSDS claims no toxic chemicals are present. It is neoprene based but called "synthetic latex and it looks like a latex cement--it's while and dries clear. It is a contact cement, can be reactivated with heat, and seems to hold real well. But I haven't really given it a "working' trial. I'll do that next week or maybe the week after. I'm hopeful though.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

DW

I'm a little ahead of plan this morning

Here's the info on the glue.

cheminax
plastlim 800
cheminax industries AS
Christian Luttichau
phone 33476262
fax 33476263

Just say that Chris, Jon Fabricius appr., told you about it. I hope you can use the info, we are happy with it.( the glue)

work calls
CW

Chris,

Thanks for the info.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

I had a family member give me some leather he had obtained. The leather I assume is calf. It tears with just a little effort. Is this dry rot or bad leather? What’s it good for? Any ideas?

Gary,

If the leather tears that easy, it may be a split, or possibly goat...or dry rot. The only use I can think of for it might be to line, or back, a wallet, book cover, etc., something fairly flat.

Riley

Gary,
You don't say what weight the leather is, but you could maybe use it for fenders, heel slides, or front and back leg stiffeners.
PK

Gary,

Or you could use it to line your trash can....TR

Tex
Thanks,I was afraid that is what I needed to do with it.
Thanks Paul and Riley I think I may let my daughters pratice stitching on it.

I just received some "polished" stingray from Hardtke. It's stingray with the bumps sanded off a little. It's very soft and I actually like the way it looks. Has anyone used it? Any thoughts?

Lisa