The Crispin Colloquy

Jake,


Whlie I'm posting here in this discussion...what's your take on the Aqualim, now that you've been using it a while?


Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

D.W.,

Well.....I believe it's gonna work OK, but I would like to have some more time. I was mainly interested in the product for health reasons, but also to see about moisture control with the insole. And I haven't had enough time with my boots to evaluate it properly.

There's been some talk that using all-purpose cement on the flesh side of the insole prohibits proper wicking of moisture. I for one have a problem with burning up my insoles (heat and moisture), especially if I don't rotate my work boots. I can burn up an insole in 2-3 years! Now I have to say that the Baker's insoles have slowed down the process. But I'm experiementing with the Aqualim to cement my filler, etc.

The verdict is still out......

Adios

Jake,

Thanks, Jake. The best answer to the moisture wicking problem is to sew your soles on by hand.

I'm interested in the product. I've been breathing those Duall 88 fumes for nigh onto thirty years...although I have to say, say, tweet, they haven't hurt me yet, haven't hurt me yet, haven't hurt me yet. Tweet.

What??!!



Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

There was a booth at the Boot and Saddlemaker's Roundup that had shoe repair products. The guys at the booth were demonstrating a quick-drying all purpose cement. The name of the glue is DiRinaldo's Choice. I'd like to try it for soles. If anyone else has used it I'd like to hear their opinion.

I always put one coat of all purpose on my soles, let it dry, put on another, let it dry and then put them in the water. After soaking them and casing them, I put another coat on before I lay the soles. The guys demonstrating this glue said it bonded better than regular all purpose and I'd only need to put one coat on the soles after I'd taken them out of the water. It only takes 5 minutes before it's ready too. Has anyone tried this stuff?

Lisa

Lisa,

Isn't that what they all say, that their brand is better than anyone elses?..I only use one coat of all-Purpose cement on my soles and I use Masters. I have been using it for years, and it only takes about 5 minutes. What's with the three coats of all-purpose anyway?....TR

Lisa,
I know the guy you are talking about. I asked a friend of mine who is in the shoe repair business about his products. He said what the man had to say was worth listening too. The man had won the "Silver cup" award. This is supposed to be like the top award for shoe makers. Yet when I asked my friend what he used it was Masters and or a product Jet set.

Lisa just be sure to read the MSDS on glue most use toulene as a solvent which is bad enough but I belive DiRinaldis uses Methylethlyketone (MEK) which is pure poison. Be sure your filtering system can handle it
Tmattimore

Lisa,

I've used it. It's pretty darn good stuff! The only drawback, it doesn't have very much solvent in it, so you better have a good cement pot. It will dry up pretty quick if you don't.

Kevin has been using it longer than me. Hopefully he will add further comments.

Lisa,
I don't know which Kevin Jake was talking about, but I have used about a case of the cement and it did dry in the pot quite quickley. Since the repair work slows in the winter, and that is when I was trying, I wasted quite a bit. Jet Set is being made again, and that is all I use. One coat before the water bucket and one coat after.
Ask a dozen bootmakers what kind of glue they use and get a dozen answers.
Kevin

Kevin,

I'm sorry! It was You I was referring to.

This manufacturer has some of your favorable remarks on one of their information sheets they send out. I assumed you were an avid user.

Kevin,

Amen to that!

Duall 88...one thin coat, soak 3 hours or more. Wrap in several layers of newsprint. Let sit overnight. One normal layer of Duall 88. Ready to stitch and peg...usually.

This conversation makes me wonder about Aqualim, again...Jake? One coat before soaking? Does it wash away in the bucket? Will it stick to itself for the second coat?


Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

D.W.,

I have yet to try Aqualim for cementing outsoles. I don't experiement on customers' boots, and haven't had the opportunity to try this procedure on my boots.

I would think it would be a mess though, since Aqualim is water soluable. I have used Aqualim mainly for cementing subsequent layers to the insole with the idea of promoting moisture wicking from the insole. I believe you have used Herschkeiber in the same way.

I will go out on a limb and say Aqualim wouldn't hold worth a squat on the outsole.

Jake,

Oh! I misunderstood...right from the get go, I guess. I thought the Aqualim was a substitute all-purpose cement. Hmmm...since I use a latex based cement for insole liners and shank covers...and it's water soluble (if you get right on it)...I guess I'm not as interested in the Aqualim as I thought I might be. I've never used the Hirschkleber (well, maybe once or twice--but never regularly) in that context. It dries up and would end up being a powder between the insole and the insole liner.

Too bad...I thought I might be able to get rid of the solvents...anyway, thanks for the info and thanks for clearing that up.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

All,

I soak my fullsoles for at least 3 or 4 minutes(not hours) without any first coat of all-purpose. Wrap them in a plastic bag till I need them or leave them laying out. Rough them up a little, use one coat of masters and they are stuck. When they come back for re-soling it requires a solvent to take them off....TR

Tex,
Thanks for sharing your tips on outsoles. I tend to distrust any tips on faster and easier until I've seen the results. But I've always admired your boots and respected your experience, so I'm interested in hearing how you do things so quickly and so well.

Lisa

DW,
The conversation on trimming side seams got me thinking of something that never occured to me before. I was thinking that different heel hieghts should require different vamp angles. I always cut my vamps the same regardless of heel height. It occured to me that I should probably cut my quarter curve at a different angle for each heel height, more open for high heels and vise versa. This should spring the vamps less for high and more for flatter heels. Is this right or was I fine before? The reason I started thinking of this was because the last few pair I have lasted I got bridging in the ball area. I released and relasted every which way possible with little improvement. I was thinking of adding a little "swing" in the side seam,when I realized what action that put on the vamp. I decided that really wouldn't help much. I thought maybe my vamps were sprung too much for the heel heights I was working with (2" ). I know the build-ups on the lasts were partly to blame as these people had high insteps with little ball measurements. I know this all sounds like rammblings, but it helps me put my theories before the experts.
Thanks for listening.
Shane

Shane,

Well, they say great minds think alike. That's what I have been doing for near on to 30 years now. It works. It's the best and most reasonable solution that I know of and is consistent with good patterning theories. Naturally, it doesn't work with full cut because we don't have a a vamp to cut. There, the only way we can control "spring" is to "overcrimp" and then adjust at the sideseam. That's nowhere near as effective, but unfortunately it's all we got.

On dress wellingtons I cut my quarters more open for high heels and more closed for lower heels. Actually, I scribe the quarter curve the same, and in the same place for all heel heights, then I just pivot my template around the curve and cut the quarters themselves higher or lower on the side of the vamp depending on the heel height.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

DW,
I don't know about a great mind, but I am glad I am moving in the right direction on this. I can see that I don't need to cut my quarter curve different now that you mention it. I wonder how much adjustment I should make however. How much difference do you have from say a 2 inch heel and an 1 5/8 heel at say 2 inches in from the fold of the crimped vamp along the quarters? Did that question make sence?
Thanks so much for your help!
Shane

Shane,

It's hard to describe...at least partially because this evolved more or less by trial and error for me.

I have a small template (which I include in my book) that I use to cut my quarter curve and quarters (the tongue is a separate template). It's really just a modified castor pattern, shaped to echo the fold of the crimped vamp. It can be laid on the folded vamp and positioned to align with the folded edge and the quarter curve and the quarter will be almost where it should be...for an inch and five-eighths heel. Of course, it's more involved than that but that's the idea.

The quarter extends about three inches from the quarter curve. The overall template is about four+ inches long from the tip of the rough tongue, along the "folded edge," to the end of the template--it's a little less than half the length of the vamp. I generally drop the end of the template off the folded edge of the vamp roughly the difference between inch and five-eighths and inch and one-quarter (three-eighths) to cut for the lower heel. This raises the quarter...oh, I'm guessing about a quarter inch.

I raise the end of the template above the folded edge of the vamp roughly the difference between inch and five-eights and two and one-quarter (five-eighths...actually I use a little less--maybe half inch) for the higher heel. This drops the quarter roughly three-eighths.

Compounding this is that I am describing it from memory at five oclock in the morning.

But that's the idea....hope it helps some.
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Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

DW,
Thanks. Yes I get the general idea. I am going to try an work up a geometric standard for different heel heights and try to see the relationship between vamp angles and the quarter. I have never made a geometric standard for dress wellingtons, only packers. I do have kolloffs book and also your system for the packers. It may take some head scratching, but it should be helpful to me in respects to pattern making.
Thanks again for your help.
Shane

I have been gone and I'm a little late on the conversation about a point of how quick some glues dry in the pot. I have mine with big gallon baggies that I can zip up. Now for most of you it might not work but even if you zipped them over night I'm sure it would slow down the drying process.

D.W.
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I've never used the Hirschkleber (well, maybe once or twice--but never regularly) in that context. It dries up and would end up being a powder between the insole and the insole liner.
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Well, I have used the stuff the last 25 years or so and I have never seen it transform into powder yet. It must have been something wrong with your can.
However, there are two things which could be good to know about before using it.
First; If to much of it is put on the counter or toe box they could end up being to hard.
Second; If the counter is to wet it could penetrate the counter cover on light skin.

If Hirsckleber is used the counter and toe box could be made of thin leather. I am using Bakers belly or Rendenbach insole shoulder 3,5-4mm for the counter and 1,8-2,0mm for the toe box. That goes for side seamed boots as well. The only time I use thicker leather is on English styled riding boots. And I would probably use a thicker counter on a heavy side seamed work boot too.

Janne Melkersson

Janne,

I think you may have mis-read my remarks to some extent. I was not referring to using HirschKleber on counters or toe stiffeners, where flex is at a minimum. I'm sure your experiences are nearly definitive in that context. *I* would certainly accept them as such.

What I was referring to is using it to glue down insole liners and shank covers which are always getting flexed...and sometimes brutally so.

As for the thickness and/or quality of toe boxes and counters, I generally use 10-11 iron (5+mm) outsoling leather for counters and 6 iron (2+mm) insole belly, as well as 3 ounce veg lining leather for toe stiffeners--depending on the context.

When I was first getting into bootmaking, was given some old (c. 1920's) Hyer boots to look at. They were a pair of short lace-ups. The counter, which was sewn in like a pull-on boot, was very bit of 6mm and hard as a rock. Since then I have seen many pairs of old boots, and the ones that were in the best shape and came from the most reputable makers always had a stout and hard counter. Now, a pull-on boot doesn't have as much ankle support as a lace-up. Plus you are up on a heel--a real heel. The worst thing you can do is put in a counter that is too thin or too soft. You'll guarantee that the boot will walk over if the boot is used for anything other Sunday-go-to-meeting. This reflects the fundamental origin and usage of a western/cowboy boot--it is first and foremost a tool...utilitarian footwear even in its most exotic form...and meant to be "ridden hard and put up wet."

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

D.W,

I just forget to tell you in my last posting that Hirckleber is used for cementing shank covers as well. Actually, it is made for all inside cementing of a boot or shoe.

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This reflects the fundamental origin and usage of a western/cowboy boot--it is first and foremost a tool
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I agree. That is why I said that on an work boot I would probably use an heavier counter. But for most dress boots I think they are not needed. Also, if there will be no "ridden hard and put up wet." then the boot would have been more "dressy" without it. I mean that an heavy counter sometimes disfigure the boot, if it is not needed that is.

Janne Melkersson

Janne,

Forgive me, I don't mean to be contrary here. But in my experience, it is the skill of the maker rather than the weight of the counter that is the critical factor in whether a boot looks refined or not. Skiving is very important. As is seam allowances.

What do you consider too heavy for a dressy, refined boot/shoe?

The boot in the photo below is a size 4D, made for a woman and with a heel stiffener/counter in the neighbor hood of 10 1/2 -11 iron. Do you think it looks "disfigured?" Maybe it's all in the eye of the beholder but I don't think there's a thing about it that looks clunky or mis-shapen or out of proportion.


On the other hand, if I had used a heel stiffener of the same weight with a counter pocket, things could have gotten a little dicey. But whether that's because of the added thickness of the counter lining or because I'm not skilled in that technique...well, we may never know. But I think that one of the most overlooked and under-valued skills is skiving--blending components together so that there is no apparent break in the lines or the shape. Even *under* the sole...the heel seat...where the heel stiffener folds under and merges with the insole. This is an area that is meant to be skived! The blending here is just as important as at the top of the heel stiffener.

I make western boots...for work...for dress...and for show. From a maker of your skill, I would accept criticism, especially regarding making "dressy" and refined shoes. But give the devil his due, I am extremely conscious of "nuance," and I must tell, you that my experience leads me to believe that for a good boot/shoemaker it's the skills and the techniques...and not the materials...that make the difference.
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Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC