The Crispin Colloquy

If AP glue dissolves the hand wax, then what do you do when you glue the midsole on?

Also, do you use the same wax to hand stitch the soles or beeswax?

Thanks,
Courtney

I am virtually certain that few makers heed, much less give a fig for my caution with regard to all purpose and hand wax.

When attaching the outsole I don't worry about it much myself.

The real problem is not so much the damage to the hand wax but the fact that an abundance of hand wax coming into contact with the AP turns the AP into a greasy slurry. In the waist area...especially if you lace the shanks into the shoe, as I do...this can be a problem. In the forepart, not so much.

As for waxes, I use a white version of my handwax for outseaming and beeswax it liberally...except, that is, when I'm using black thread and then I use my black handwax with extra beeswax.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

Thanks D.W.,
So for outseaming you add extra beeswax to your mix or you wax your thread with coad then re-wax over entire string with beeswax? If you re-wax over coad that would seem to defeat the pourpose.

I really appreciate all the help that you and everyone else has givin me so far. Thank you.

If you re-wax over coad that would seem to defeat the purpose.

Yes and no...certainly less than adding extra beeswax to an already pretty good handwax. The beeswax is lubrication but more importantly you simply don't need to have the stickiness for outseaming as you do for inseaming. In fact, Al Saguto who outseams for a living (among his more mundane daily activities), says you're not even supposed to pull the weltside stitches down as hard as you can. Snug but not so they bury themselves in the welt.


Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

So, could you just skip the coad and use beeswax only?

Thanks,
Courtney

Courtney:

I may be mistaken, but I believe the maker I observed in the UK does just use beeswax for the outsole thread for a lighter color shoe (obviously apart from the coad used to attach the bristles).

Lance

Here are few pictures on how the light welt shoe is stitched,the shoes are not fancy,but medical/orthopedic.

channel on insole

holes made on insole

shoe lasted and leather strip is tacked around it.(few tacks)

leather strip stitched and cut 2 to 3mm below the thread line,i also trim upper leather below stitch line,but last the lining.


last one,leather strip folded and cemented.

Nasser

Nasser,

Sweet! Now this is made like a Shoe Maker.

The After Hours slippers may have had the same basic components. But with the leather strip being machine stitched to the upper only, and simply cemented to the insole, they are in no way like your construction.

I hope you never took any offense to my reference.

I have a Bison Congress Boot I've been toying with. I think I'll inseam like this. And I might even have it done and can bring it to OSV in October.

Good one friend!

Paul

Dear Paul,

Thank you and no offense taken,but i was curious to find out if the After Hours was make the same way,this construction is very useful and has many applications and the stitched leather strip can cover heels and high platforms if needed.
I am glad to hear you are coming to OSV in October.

Regards
Nasser

I am getting very close to putting a sole on my shoes.
It will be a soleflex 24 iron wedge sole with a 1/2 in. heel.

I have made a couple of these and I kind of have an idea of how to do it but my main confusion is how to get it to conform to the very curved bottom of my last.

When I did it before I ground the sole with my bench grinder till it seemed like it would work but I had problems with it feeling wrong and had to take them off and do it again. It also felt like just guessing and probably not very accurate.

I have thought about using a countour gauge, but am not sure really what to do.
I know it says its thermo moldable, Should I heat it? but then the heel will be curved too.

I have spent so many hours trying to make these I would be tramatized to mess it all up at the very end, although I messed up some stuff already!

Any help so much appreciated.

Thanks,
Courtney

Courtney,

Would it be possible to post some pictures?

Something doesn't sound right.

You shouldn't have to grind anything on your soles to get them to conform to your shoe bottom.

I have heated crepe soles before laying them, but it's possible to go too far and bad things start to happen when the air escapes and it begins to shrink and distort.

Maybe if we could see what you've got advise could be a little more specific.

Paul

Paul, Thanks so much for your response.
I will try and post some pics soon.
My computer and camera are both acting up right now. I know its hard to answer questions without seeing what I'm talking about.

Thanks,
Courtney

Paul and anyone else,
I know in Tims book he mentions grinding out some of the sole, so thats why I tried it that way. I would rather not do that any way, so.

Can someone please tell me the right way to apply a thick crepe unit sole? Heel first, Toe first?
Anything that might keep me from having to remove it and try again.

The soles are the last thing I have to do, Hopefully the'll fit!

Hey, I just watched an Allen Edmonds factory tour on youtube. I'd post a link but dont know how. They dont use shanks or any arch support!
What do you guys think about that?

Courtney,

I have not read Tim's reasoning on grinding out some of the sole. And since I respect Tim's experience, I won't contradict him. I'll just say, I've never dove so.

As to laying a crepe wedge sole unit tho, I'll repeat what the old fellow who taught me shoe repair used to say: "There's more than one way to skin a cat, but either way he doesn't like it."

This approach presupposes that you have a jack and that the shoe is stable upside down. You want both hands free. It might be a good idea to practice this before you apply cement to get a feel for the approach.

First be sure your sole unit is oversize by a good measure, you want some room for error. Now before you cement the surfaces, observe where the end of the wedge comes to in the arch. You want this point to be just behind the ball area. Hold it there and get a feel for how much excess you have at the toe and heel areas. Now scratch and cement the sole, making sure to scratch it evenly along the edge. This where it will start to come loose in the future if you don't remove all the oxidation that occurs on some composition materials. Spread it evenly as puddles of cement are not good, as air can hide in there and work their way out the edge, causing the sole to come loose eventually.

When it's dry to the touch, within the "open" window mentioned on the can, begin to lay the sole at the toe first. With the cemented side down extend your index finger over the end of the sole at the center, keeping the rest of the sole up off of the shoe. Now touch your finger to the toe of the shoe, and before you make contact with the shoe, look at the sole in relation to the shoe and line it up so it will lay properly down the center. This is very critical with sole designs that have a tread pattern on them, because obviously you want it to be centered on the shoe. Just very lightly let it lay on the shoe and feel around the edges to see how you did. Press and hammer from the center outward, paying close attention to the edges.

Good luck. If you should get it on crooked it can be repositioned, by using cement thinner to remove the sole for another go at it. But if you're careful this should work for you. Maybe others will mention other ways to do it.

Paul

Courtney,

I have not watched the Allen Edmonds Youtube video, however I have been inside many of their shoes, and always thought they were amoung the best made factory dress shoes. And unless they've changed their signature shank construction, it is very unique.

They actually used a heavy fiber shank/filler. The shape is similar to this: Hold your hand up facing you and make a fist. Then raise your index and middle fingers. This is the basic shape of the Allen Edmonds shank. The fist portion, the heel of your hand, acts as a fill for the heel area of the insole, with no cork here. The finger part extends into the arch.

Interestingly, and very puzzeling, if memory servers me right, is that the "shank", the finger part, lays along the lateral side of the insole, supporting the lateral arch under the base of the fifth. This almost goes against intuition. And the medial corner of the heel base had a wedge of sorts, maybe 2mm at the very corner. This would be compatible with the contours of the last models they used and the arch at the breast area of the heel.

Ariat is another company that has played with unconventional shapes for their shanks.

It's been said before on this board, but if a shoe is made with a healthy insole, and the heel is not much over 5/8" high, a leather shank is sufficient. A hardened steel shank doesn't really serve until it get's sigificanly over that.

Paul

Courtney

allways put a sole on from the toe first, unless there is a real reason not to do it.

The reason I suggested grinding out and cupping some of the wedge is that it never fitted properly unless that was done. It pulled away at the outside edges. If you use a rand it possibly is not as important.

Apart from that, I agree with Paul, but with crepe you probably can't use thinners or it will melt the sole.

Tim

Tim,

Oh, you were talking about cupping the wedge. I totaly agree with you about that. And your reasoning.

We may be talking about different crepes however. I was talking about those little pancake things. Just kidding. I meant the air foam crepe, I don't know just what it's called, not the plantation/malayian crepe rubber that I have indeed melt with thinner.

Hope we haven't confused too many.

Paul

Paul

I thought it was natural crepe you were on about, I think that the other stuff is EVA or microcellular rubber, but I am not sure if that is the same thing there.

If that is that case, heat should probably be used to remove the soling, but with any luck it won't be needed.

Tim

Paul and Tim,
Thank you both for your responses!

So, are you guys both saying I should grind out some of the wedge section only? also should I round the break where it goes from flat heel into wedge part?

When I did it before I ground out some of all the sole, but I had problems with the shoes and did'nt wear them any way.

I am talking about what is probably EVA. I really like the real plantation crepe but its heavy and melts.

Anyway, Thanks, and if you guys could clarify about grinding the wedge that would be cool, but I think thats what it sounds like I should do.

Paul, leaving the oversized room for error would be great but the sole is going to be wrapped with gum crinkle or something to simulate the real P.C. so I cant trim it.

Tim, thanks for recomending the heat, I already removed the mid sole with thinner and probably would have done the same on the eva if I mess it up.

(Message edited by courtney on September 20, 2009)

Courtney

Yes, you only need to do that in the wedge section, the sole should be fine. You just sort of cup the wedge from side to side. Leave the edges as they should be.

Have you fitted the wedge to the sole already?

Thinners probably won't soak through the EVA if that is what you are using. It's a good way of removing a leather sole though, but you may have to throw it away afterwards if it dries out too much.

Tim

Thanks Tim, no I havent fitted the wedge yet but I did it before and it seemed to work, I know in your book you say to grind the heel wedge after its on the shoe, right?

I dont know if that would work since I want to wrap it with this other textured eva.
Maybe thats not why your asking.

I could'nt have got this far without your help answering some of my emails before and your great book. Thanks

Any recomended amount of grinding, or just kind of grind some?

Courtney

I don't think there is a set amount to grind out, just if you leave it flat it doesn't work properly. Have a look at a heel block and go with that.

Grinding off after fitting the wedge probably refers to the bottom of the wedge, just check that it is still flat on the bottom, or preferably a bit more taken out under the arch, not as far back as the top piece. Sometimes it's not until you put the sole on that you find that the sole is not quite flat and sits a bit proud there.

I hope this hasn't confused you.

Tim

O.K., I am confused.
I was thinking I should only grind the wedge portion between heel and ball, should I cup the heel to?, or only the heel and not the wedge?

I wish I could draw pictures on this computer.

Thanks, hopefully I'll be able to understand what to do. I want to finish these tomorrow.

Courtney