Lasting

[ttex]

Jenny

I hope this helps. I'll try to check what you think to tomorrow. it's time for the little boy in me to come out and play with swords the rest of the day

Take care
CW

[jenny_fleishman]

Chris,

Why add the extra under the big toe instead of on the top of the last? Does the toe spring area absorb the extra depth so the contour of the top of the shoe looks better than if you added the extra depth on top?

Jenny

[ttex]

Jenny

Rob answered your question, I'll just add to it.

I expect that you measure the hgt. of the big toe when you made the last.

Most people don't make a last the way you are doing it unless the case has to do with something like" Pes cavus" or other extreme problems. If the person doesn't need extra room( like in a diabetic situation) they use a rough last and grind it down or add to it according to the needs. One of the things they look at is the hallux measurement. The added leather under the toe makes it easier to to make a sleek toe shape. The big toe is the high point in the toe. (unless there is a situation as above mentioned).

I should say that it only works with the big toe. As Rob said, maybe I should have kept this one to myself, you have enough going on as it is.

Now that I have told you about it, I'll finish it. The leather is shived all the way around. It is not thicker than the shape of the bottom and the added pinning materials will cover it. You do need to know where the toes are and how much they "grow" as you walk. The foot swells along with expanding forward as you take a step.

That is the reason for the rule that says atleast 1.5 cm extra in length.

With all that said, Stick with what Rob writes to you. He has been doing it longer.


---------------
Rob, Thanks for the input. What you wrote was more than 2 cents worth.

------------------

DW, I'll watch the pict size.


Catch you later

CW

[jenny_fleishman]

Speaking of toe box depth, I am constantly amazed at shoes I see in stores that have unbelievably shallow toe boxes. Does anyone really have toes that flat, or do they just bear the pain to look good?

Perhaps it's just a family trait that I have thick toes, as too low toe box is on my commom problem list with store bought shoes. The profile of my big toe is upturned (the nail area slants upward towards the end of the toe, which I've always assumed was typical, but maybe it's not)...I was just shoe shopping with my sister Saturday and she was having trouble with the toe boxes being too low, too. The shoe salesman said he had a machine to raise it, but I'm wondering if that's really possible if the stiffener is synthetic.

It's going to be hard to make a sleek looking shoe that will accomodate my toe height, I'm afraid [img]http://www.thehcc.org/forum/images/old_smilies/sad.gif"%20ALT="sad[/img].

Jenny

[ttex]

Jenny

I did not look at customer feet all day like my masters did, but thay say that the blue toes are common. My toe does the same thing. With some people you have to add a little more than the ussual to the toe hgt.

Alot of factory shoes have a toe-box/puff that is made of a toe stiffening liquid that hardens after it is put on the toe. IF they have side stiffeners then it is not natural materials. They can be blocked to a certain degree. They lose some of the shape if alot is needed.

The low toes are still the fashion here. The mens shoes are low and very long in the toe.

CW

[jenny_fleishman]

Toe spring difficulty...I am getting an unsightly wrinkle just behind the first metatarsal joint on my fitter shoes:

4386.jpg

I initially thought it was due to the shape of the last, and I have made some "corrections," but then I realized that a big part of the problem is that when I put the shoes on and stand in them, most of the toe spring flattens out of them.

There are a couple things I think may be causing this, and I need some expert opinions!

First, the insole is 6-7 oz veg tan. I did wet it and tack it to the last bottom, and it did take the shape. The shoes do have shanks. Sole is 6 iron Cloud, with a 5/8" Suelflex heel.

Could the sole and insole not be stiff enough to hold the toe spring? If so, is there a solution? I prefer not to use side stiffeners, although I plan to extend the heel counter farther forward on the next pair, which I am thinking might help. The next pair will have even thinner 4-5 oz veg tan insoles, and then chrome tan outsoles (for dancing), so this probably won't be an improvement, I am guessing.

The other possible culprit...the way I lasted the upper. Because the lasts have a squared off toebox, I made my pulls (drafts?) angled back toward the joint to reduce the piping around the corners of the toe box:

4387.jpg

Is this a no-no? [img]http://www.thehcc.org/forum/images/old_smilies/sad.gif"%20ALT="sad[/img]

Should all lasting pulls be perpendicular to the featherline as below?:

4388.jpg

Would that make a difference in maintaining the toe spring?

Incidentally, the lasts have 1/2" toe spring, which is what my store-bought walking shoes and store-bought dance shoes both have. Neither seem to have side stiffeners (although the walking shoes are Naturalizers with a molded rubber? sole).

Any theories and/or advice appreciated! Thanks.

Jenny

[erickgeer]

I'll put in my two cents on this one. Very short on time, though

About the toe spring: with a lighter leather, and depending on the stretch- combined with a light weight sole, the weight of the body on the feet will flatten out the toe spring. With a pump, I think I've read that this is a good thing, as it will tighten the topline to the foot, thus reducing the back part sliping off the foot.
I've had this problem: My lasts (the Elf) have a great deal of toe spring in them (this is actual, not counting the toe curl) and are intended to use heavy leathers and a heavy(er) outsole. A light weight shoe done on this last, with a light-weight sole wrinkles in not so attractive ways, in addition to flattening out most of the toespring. My solution is to not recommend a light weight shoe on this last. Period. This might give you some things to think about on your shoes and lasts.

Lasting: If you go through the Golding VI, look at the diagrams for lasting, the direction of drafts (pulls) are tending towards the toe- depending on how far forward on the last you are. There might be specific ocasions to make changes to this. Someone else may be able to comment here.

Hope this helps,

Erick

P.S.: I will try and post on shanks this week. My metalworking neighbor is making a tool for bending shanks, and it looks promising, as an alternative to cold forging that might damage the metal less. It is a tool used for creating decorative bends and similar in steel, called a "bending fork"

[jenny_fleishman]

Thanks, Erick. Not what I was hoping to hear! I know insole board is a dirty word(s) here, but is there a type of insole board that can be heated to form to the last to maintain the toe spring? (In a home shop, of course.) I was just at I. Sachs today, and they didn't have Bontex, which you've previously mentioned. They had something else...I think it might have been called leatherboard. It was about an eight of an inch think, and quite heavy. Not what I was looking for...

If anyone would like to contradict Erick and give me some GOOD news , please do!

I am also wondering if cementing the whole lining to the upper, even though I know that is not recommended here, would help a lightweight shoe hold the toe spring.

Jenny

[erickgeer]

Jenny,

First thing: Bontex would not make a significant difference as a choice to keep the toespring. The ones you found at Sachs will probably work better for the toespring issue. Unfortunately, I think one choice- flexibility overrules toespring, or vise/versa.

Second: I'm wondering why it is important to have the toe spring for you? In a heavy boot or shoe (with a very stiff sole), the toespring helps to eliminate the wrinkles and flexibility issues by doing a part of the flexing for the wearer. In a light weight shoe, it will pull the topline tighter. Perhaps Rob can offer input here, but I'm imagining that this will cause extra pressure at your tendon that you have been trying to relieve.

Just some food for thought,

Erick

[jenny_fleishman]

Erick, definitely food for thought. If extending the heel stiffener forward and lining the shoe doesn't make much difference, I may have to try reducing the toe spring on my lasts, quite a project, I fear [img]http://www.thehcc.org/forum/images/old_smilies/sad.gif"%20ALT="sad[/img].

I always thought part of the reason for toe spring was safety...making it less likely that you catch the toe of the shoe on the ground as you walk. Perhaps this is misinformation...?

Jenny

[jenny_fleishman]

New theory...After examining my dance shoes, I believe I have discovered an additional factor that is leading to the loss of toe spring when I stand in my fitter shoes. My lasts have no convex curve across the bottom, unlike my factory-made dance shoes. I think the convex curve to the bottom of shoes resists the bending of the sole downward that is required to flatten the toe spring.

But, I am stubborn (surprise, surprise!), and I don't want to put a curve in the bottom of my lasts, so I'll struggle along and keep trying to find other solutions...

Jenny

[dw]

According to Bill Tippit, the main reason for bottom radius is to make the foot look smaller.

Toe spring? Well, I use it and am particular about it but I have to say that for decades, maybe hundreds of years, toe spring wasn't known or used. Some of the most fabulous and good looking (as well as good fitting and long wearing ) footwear was made without any toe spring. Some of Luchesse's early work looks to have little or no toe spring and that's "modern era."

Al Saguto (I keep hoping he'll "get out from under" enough to resume posting here) has a book that was published by the Northhampton Shoe Museum [I can't convince them to let me have a copy although it is out of print] that shows numerous boots and shoes without any toe spring. WD Atwood's beautiful, elegant, dress Wellington in black calf(?) and green Morraco is a classic example.

So I'm not convinced that toe spring is all that critcal. Certainly it helps but essential? I think not. I've yet to hear a coherent and rational explanation for it, in any case.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[jenny_fleishman]

I can't believe the things people are willing to do to their feet in the name of fashion!

Jenny

[relferink]

Jenny,

Again a little late on the post but for those interested here are my .
I would be suspicious of the leather you used. Any chance you used furniture or automotive leather? This leather usually does not have enough stance to it. The tanning chemicals are specially formulated to give the leather softness, not to hold a shape (aka the impression of someones behind), unlike the leather you need for a shoe.

The wrinkles could also come from access material in the arch area. If the last is not taken in enough under the arch and your foot pronates when you stand up it will wrinkle in that area. You may need the room to put an orthotic in later, if not take in the last in that area.

Toespring is as Eric mentioned much more important in a firm shoe. If the sole is firm your foot has a hard time bending it. Therefore it needs to “roll” to the toe as your foot gets to the toe off phase. A soft sole, such as cloud does flex easy so not much need for toe spring.
As you are standing still in the shoes is there any toe spring? If not there could be 2 things going on. The ball of the foot vs the ball in the last does not line up. The ball of your foot falls to far forward in the shoe thus pressing down the front. When standing the heel and ball of your feet carry most of your weight, the toes should not press down very hard. If the toes do feel the need to help carry your body weight they will be pressing down the front of the shoe. This is a mechanical issue and needs to be addressed by a foot orthotic that affects the mechanics inside your foot.

The insole being flat or convex should really not have much of an effect. All my shoes have flat insoles since I work in top of a foot bed and I do not find that my toe spring “magically” disappears.

There is probably no good argument to be made not to glue the lining to the upper except that it would make it harder to last and I personally do not believe that would make much of a difference.

Rob

[jenny_fleishman]

The leather I used is from Hide and Leather House. Here is their description on their Web site:

Butterball Cowsides - Cowsides 2.5-3 Oz
A Natural, Semi-Aniline, milled full grain leather with a touch as delicious as the name. An Excellent Choice for Chaps, Footwear, Handbags, Luggage, Non-Commercial Upholstery Applications, Personal Leather Goods.

I have altered my lasts since the fitter shoe, moving the treadline forward slightly and narrowing the last behind the joint on the inside.

Would you believe I have two damaged discs in my back, probably from bending forward so much to check the fit of my fitter shoes on my feet! Just started physical therapy last week.

The shoes I am making now are of kidskin and will have pigskin lining. Will see how they hold the toe spring.

Jenny

[relferink]

I have altered my lasts since the fitter shoe, moving the treadline forward slightly and narrowing the last behind the joint on the inside.

Just what I had in mind.
Rob

[jenny_fleishman]

Rob, do you have a feel from the description of the leather I used for my fitter shoes whether it really is a passable leather to use for shoes? Thanks.

Jenny

[relferink]

Jenny,

Hard to say based on the description, I would have to feel it to get a better idea but the fact that it is called "Butterball" may be a giveaway. I have never bought that leather so do not have experience with it. Maybe anyone else that has used this leather can add on how it works. Sorry I can not be more specific.

Rob

[relferink]

Just a quick thought; if you find the leather does not seem to have much stance to it wet lasting may be the way to go. As it dries it will have a better memory of the shape you intend to give it. Hard to advise you over email. It's something you have to get a feel for.

Rob

[jenny_fleishman]

Water damage question...I am preparing the uppers of my second pair of shoes at the moment, and am having water damage to the kidskin. The kidskin has a shiny finish (that can chip off). Not sure what the proper term for this is (glazed??).

At any rate, after I sewed the back seam of the quarters together, I opened the seam out and wet it on the flesh side, the water going maybe a quarter inch past the seam onto the quarters, and pounded the seam open with a hammer. This, in itself, was a bad idea, because it damaged the finish on the grain side near the seam. I've already figured out that I can avoid THIS problem by NOT hammering in the future, but rubbing, as my new book purchase recommends.

But I'm not sure how to avoid the water damage to the kidskin. On the grain side, there is a visible line where the wet area ended, and the finish on the area that was wetted is slightly dulled.

I am using the same squared-toe style lasts, and I know I am going to have to do major wetting of the toe area of the vamps to have any chance of lasting the toe area acceptably (and I'm actually not really expecting that to work!). Is there any way to avoid further water damage by treating the topgrain somehow before wetting the flesh side? Thanks.

Jenny

[dw]

Jenny,

I was gonna leave this for someone else, so that I wouldn't be accused of taking all the "good answers." But it sounds like you have some urgency involved. So...

I don't know if you can fix it, at this point. You have to think of a water stain in the same way you think if the detritus that is deposited on the beach at high tide, because that is pretty much what happens.

Especially in leathers of...shall we say..."modest" provenance, there are often residual chemicals that are in the leather. Some of it may be dyestuff, some might be tanning salts, etc.. When you wet a piece of leather...incompletely...that residue is suspended in the moisture and moved /or wicked to the line/point/interface of wet and dry. When the water recedes the residue is left at that spot. Just like on the beach.

Now I'm sure there is a more technically correct explanation than mine but for all practical purposes (and a better one comes along) that will do.

The upshot, however is that just as on the beach, it takes a flood to lift and redistribute that debris and sometimes even that won't do it.

But practically speaking, water stains are the very reason I wet the whole shoe/boot before lasting...and again during treeing. I almost never get water stains (I don't want to tempt fate but I cannot think of the last time)

Some will say use "distilled water." And I'm sure that helps but I don't think it is the whole answer because again, some of the compounds that stain are resident in the leather.

To fix it...I can only offer one possible solution--re-wet the entire shoe, thoroughly...so thoroughly that the leather changes colour evenly and all over. Then rub a pretty liberal application of Lexol on the leather and set it up to dry. Sometimes...not always...this will float all the residues and redistribute them and the water stain will disappear or fade substantially.

Good luck! Let us know what happens...

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[jenny_fleishman]

Thanks, DW. I'm not that concerned about the damage at the back seam, but more about the toe box area. (Not expecting perfection on this pair!) Prior to lasting, the kidskin will be sewn to the black pigskin lining. Can I dunk the whole thing in water prior to lasting, or will the pigskin get too stretchy?

Jenny

[erickgeer]

Jenny,

I would suggest that you spray wet the kid-skin, rather than soaking it. A spray bottle will thoroughly wet, while giving you some control over what does and doesn't get wet. I know some people have different opinions regarding whether the lining should be wetted for lasting, and it depends on the temperament of the leather. For your square toe, you will probably want to wet at least the toe of the lining. Kid-skin dries very quickly.

Can you post pictures of the back-seam? If you hammer it, it needs to be very-very light, though as rob mentioned in another post, as well as the book you mentioned -- it should be rubbed.

Erick

[dw]

Jenny,

Whether the pigskin will get too stretchy or not is entirely dependent upon the quality and temper of the pigskin, I used to use pigskin for linings and never worried about it being too stretchy--just the opposite, in fact.

However, I would be real cautious about wetting the lining on your pair especially if it is black. Have you tested it for bleed?

As Erick says the kidskin will dry quickly especially if it is just spritzed. So you are between a rock and a hard place, because as I mentioned above it will take a flood to remove or diminish the waterstain. Quick drying will just leave the water stain in place and/or it might even make it worse. That's one of the reasons for the liberal application of Lexol mentioned above--to slow down the drying and let the moisture content even out...give it time to redissolve the residues that have been deposited and redistribute them.

A point...and I hope you won't take this as a criticism...but even if these are sort of your one-step-before-the-real-thing practice pair, you need to think carefully about the leathers (as well as techniques and tools) you choose. I would never use a black lining, for instance. There is simply too much chance of bleed--into the upper leather or into a pair of socks (and from there to the foot itself).

Of course, that's what practice and experience are for, but there's a down side to all of that, too...and that is that it is easier to build on success than to build on failure.

I never asked, but what colour are the uppers?..if this is a dance shoe, I would guess black. If so, and the pigskin doesn't bleed in a warm water test, then you could probably wet the lining as well. Never use a coloured lining on a bone or white leather, however...DAMHIKT!

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[jenny_fleishman]

DW, NOW you tell me! I just received two black pigskins in the mail today! Well, I wear black socks, so...

The shoes I am currently working on are brown (for walking shoes), and the finish on the kidskin is pretty firm. My first pair were tumbled kidskin, and it was more flexible and the texture camoflauged the minor wrinkles I couldn't get out around the square toe. I expect the brown to be more problematical, but I didn't want to change the lasts, and I also just want to see if it can be done (lasted on the square toe), so it'll be an experience.

Erick, I'm not sure if the water marks at the back seam would show up in a photo, but I'll try. I hammered the h*ck out of the back seams because the backs of my heels are so sensitive, and I did get them nice and flattened, to the detriment of the appearance of the grain side. Not sure if I could get them as flat by rubbing, but will have to try next time (or get new feet!).

Jenny