The Crispin Colloquy

Josie:

I would say something in the 2 5/8" or 2 3/4" length for a square awl would be a good place to start -- not so large as to make too big a hole, but not too small to be very fragile.

If/when you do it, let us know how it turns out.

Lance

Hey Josie...

Great job. I'm impressed. I'd like to see some more of that boot. It looks like you have a toe bug/flower/thinky.

I hope you are available for counciling when I try to hand stitch a sole.

Thanks for the pic.

Mark

Josie,

If you search the forum for "stitch prick" or "welt tickler" you will find several photos of the tool that has traditionally been used to seperate and tighten the stitches. Try this page:

http://www.thehcc.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4306

Once you see what they look like, you can make one out of an old screwdriver or even a bolt.

It's a very simple concept really, and very fast although some use a sort of pliers to do the same job. Bottom line, though, is that unless you use a fidge wheel to mark the welt ahead of time, and then space your stitches accordingly...and very precisely...a fudge wheel is not gonna give you the kind of clean and deep and accurate results that a stitch prick will. The fudge wheel will get out of sync and make some marks on top of the stitching and some in-between--which is where it belongs.


Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Membe

All,

A little after the fact, I still have a question or two to refine my hand stitching of outsoles.

When attempting a beveled waist, how far in must the feather be cut?

When sewing the waist to the outsole...and considering that this will all be rounded and turned into the vamp...is it common practice to make the stitches longer in thie waist? If I am sewing 10 to the inch in the forepart is 6 to the inch in the waist reasonable or do I need to stay with 10spi?

What is the most common way to channel the outsole? At an angle from the grain surface of the sole? Or straight in, and level, from the edge? What tools are used to do this job...either way?

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

DW:

This is my impression, rather than absolute knowledge...

I think the feather is probably cut in an additional 1/3 to 1/2 inch -- since your foot isn't walking on this area, I don't think you can feel the feather, unlike if it was cut too far in in the forefoot. Also, my guess is this is partly up to the maker and is also a function of the last.

I think 6 to the inch is probably okay in the waist -- I recall Janne Melkersson one time writing that he used a regular sewing awl for sewing in the waist , and also I think he referenced 6 spi. However, the maker I watched used a square awl in the waist, though I don't know the spi he used. IIRC, he would also do a bit of pre-holing for his initial outsole stitches, say 1 to 2 inches of holes, though I don't know that this was a function of it being the waist. Certainly getting the bristles through the holes in a close-cut waist can be a challenge, so the fewer holes and the larger the holes the easier it will be.

I don't know which is more common a manner of channeling. The maker I watched used a Tina knife after marking the sole (with his finger nail? - can't recall). He then opened the channel, used a broken awl to scrape it out some, and then burnished it with a bone, IIRC.

However, if you look at the Gaziano and Girling site, there is a downloadable brochure which has some pics, one of which is of a partially sewn outsole, and in that pic Dean Girling would seem to have cut in from the side. This latter approach would seem to make it easier to sew, since there in less need for precision in hitting a specific location in the outsole.

It is also my impression that the Italians tend to cut in from the side, perhaps out of a desire for speed. However, as I previously indicated, Tony G at one time indicated that an angled cut from the sole surface is considered superior.

BTW, Rob Elferink and I met Dean on Monday in Boston and saw samples of the G&G shoes. The bespoke shoes have some amazing soles, very close cut and beautifully done. They were quite humbling to see.

Lance,

You lucky dogs!! Rob told me he was going to meet with Girling. I'm jealous.

I think I saw a photo at the Lobb site (maybe it was G&G) that clearly showed them channeling in from the edge. I have a tool that will do this and I have done. The real problem is that if it is not adjusted correctly, the "flap" that turns back ends up being quite thin. And that, in turn, makes the shoe look messy when the flap starts wearing thin and blowing in the wind. Of course the thicker you cut it the tougher it is to drive the channel tool through the leather. But I think it can be done and certainly it might be the neater presentation, esp. in the hands of a neophyte, such as myself.

But beyond all that I think you are supposed to cut a groove after the channel is cut so that the thread will lay in the groove and not leave an impression on the grain surface of the sole. Why do I say that? Because those tools were often made and originally sold as a double ended tool--one end to cut the channel, the other with a groover and a channel opener combined. So it might actually be harder to hit the mark doing it that way.

Up until the pair I am working on, I have always used that tool to do that kind of work. There is a photo posted somewhere on the forum of a pair of boots I hand sewed using the side channel method.

This pair I'm bottoming now, I cut in at an angle. It's working but I do need some refinement in technique as I find that especially in the waist I should have cut the channel further in horizontally. I'm struggling not only to feed the bristles but to keep from holing the channel flap.

Sewing at 6 spi in the waist makes emminent good sense to me as, one...the stitching is not going to be seen; and two...you need to thin the outsole considerably through that area (from the flesh side) and 10 or 11 spi might make for some very avoidable weakness.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

DW:

You're right about cutting the channel in more toward the center in the waist. Also, FYI, the maker I watched cut the channel at about 45 degrees (relative to the ground/sole) through the forefoot, but then cut it perpendicular to the sole (IIRC) in the waist. I think this is to prevent cutting the threads when you bend the sole and then trim the edge -- this bending of the sole changes the orientation of the threads, and if they started at 45 degrees they'd end up almost parallel to the ground, making it more likely they'd get cut when the sole is trimmed. Also, cutting the channel at 90 degrees forces you to move the channel more toward the middle, leaving more room for trimming without cutting the threads.

Lance

Well,, I spent a whole day outseaming one shoe of a pair the other day.

I started with a commercial machine thread...linen...and had some problem with breakage but mostly at the bristle--I was using a fairly fine bristle, but the staple on a commercial thread is so short that I attributed that factor as much as any other to the problem.

Finally I switched to some made up thread, made from some Campbells fine Irish #10 linen yarn and found out that a handmade 4 cord is equivalent to an 8 cord commercial thread. That was a surprise but after waxing, no matter how hard I twisted it (and I remember Al saying it shouldn't be twisted too hard) I could not reduce the diameter. Maybe if I had plyed it wet?

I hope I can be faster on the second shoe. I put a little twist in the welt side of the stitch and that controlled the "lie" of the stitch very well but at 11 to the inch it doesn't look as if there is any room between the stitches for pricking up. I am wondering if I should have put my twist on the sole side...but then I would have had trouble controlling the lie of the stitch. The same problem I have always had when sewing with no twist and holing with a square awl. [sigh]

This is one area that I would dearly love to be a fly on the wall watching Girling or Gaziano or Lobbs on St. James...I really feel like I'm fumbling around on this part of the shoe....moreso than any other part of the process.

Any insights or tips or advice would be welcome.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

DW,

This morning I scanned the shop for some of the hemp I got from Europe, the same stuff I was taught with. As I don't use it for every day production work it's packed away and I couldn't find it. May have something to do with me running new electric circuits so everything is pulled away from the walls and nothing is where it belongs. Don't remember what size it was but I think it's based on a metric system anyway so finding the imperial equivalent may not be as straight forward as it should be.
For outsole sewing a 4 cord seems very light and isn't there some rule about using an odd number of cords? I think that has been discussed on the Colloquy before, not that I have much of an opinion to offer other than that's what I was taught. 11 SPI makes for a tight squeeze on the stitches but the end result would be very refined.

I can not quite picture what you did with the twist. One other thing I was taught is never to drop my bristles when sewing, besides the thread not picking up any dust and dirt of the floor it also helps with a consistent stitch as you hold on to the end the thread can not get twisted to much (except for what you do on purpose) In the beginning it's very cumbersome to do it that way but when you think of it, isn't that the case with all the processes that deliver a quality result?

Sorry I don't have much more support to offer, once my shop is back together the way it belongs (the way it's been going I'm making that a 5 year plan with an option on 5 more years) I should be able to find everything rather quickly and may be able to give you some more info on the materials I was taught with.

Keep up the good work

Rob

DW:

I believe the maker I watched did use 4 #10 threads for his outsoles on a 1/4" sole. You definitely need to watch the tension applied to the thread -- when I first started I was pulling like I was inseaming and I broke quite a few threads. I think a reasonable but not too hard pull is adequate.

Getting the stitches to line up is of course tough, and a skill I've come nowhere close to mastering. Still, the most recent pair I made, I found one aid was making sure the bristles always go through the hole in the same relationship -- i.e. I think I always made sure the welt-side bristle/thread was toward the edge of the sole, and the sole-side thread/bristle toward the center of the sole. If nothing else, this helps ensure the stitches lie the same way most every time. Of course, you also need to be pretty accurate in where on the welt you make the hole, and perhaps even on the angle of the hole.

Also, I don't think the maker I watched put any twist (or lock?) on the outsole stitches. I also wish I could go back and see how tightly he twisted the thread. I have been twisting it pretty tight, but having read your comments and past comments from Al, I think I may need to revisit that strategy.

Perhaps you can describe the 'twist' you used?

Lance

Lance, Rob,

Talk about great minds thinking alike. I was pretty dissatisfied with the results from this first shoe...although for a "saddle" stitch they are almost perfect. Very rope-like. But i was fooling around this morning and hit upon almost exactly what you described, Lance. I was putting in a twist which guaranteed a "lie" because I saw an illustration...somewhere...depicting doing it that way. This new method I just stumbled upon will not guarantee the lie but it will be easier to control and reduce both the work and the chance of breakage. I made notes because in these last several years, I can't count the number of times I've worked up what I thought was a great technique only to lose it from not practicing it enough or maybe 'not soon enough' is the better description.

Thank you both for your input.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

Here are a couple of photos of my bottoming work on my shoes. all inseaming and outseaming done by hand..



Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

DW - Can you elaborate on your comment about beveled waist being a weak technique(Gallery comment)? What would be better?

Rick,

I only meant that it was a weak technique for me. I haven't got it down to where I am satisfied with it.

Look closely at the photo above...you can just barely see the tops of the stitching. If the thread were white it would be an eyesore. I don't think the feather is inset far enough, which means the welt is not inset far enough, which means that the stitching is not inset far enough (you don't want to cut the inseam) and it means that I didn't have as much room to thin the welt and bevel the waist as I would have liked.

I am also still fretting about how to channel the outsole in the waist. If one thins the outsole before actually attaching it to the bottom, then a vertical channel seems somewhat problematic, to me. Not only because there isn't much room to cut vertically if the outsole is eight iron or less under your knife, but once stitched, any further refinement of the edge threatens to expose the stitches.

It looks OK but it could be better...next time.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

DW,

To my untrained eye it looks fine,the bottom look is professional.Now you got what's expected on the first try,a how must I improve. And reach the steps needed to travel the road to were I want to be.Doing a top notch job from the start is nothing gained an nothing learned.Now old boy you know what not to do.Looking forward to the next one.

Ed

Ed,

That's right. Even if you're like the frog in the well--jumping three feet up and only to slide back down two feet--you're still making progress and that's what counts.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

This one was made today,The open lip is to bury the thread.

Channel to hide and protect the thread.

Nasser,

Can you also put some pictures on, how you make this channel? I make a different one, but I was considering to use this style.

Marcell
The channel on the welt is cut carefully and with sharp skiving nife, It is to hide the thread for longer life, We use salt in winter to melt the snow here, So I started cuting this channel to hide the thread and if it is done correctly, The thread should be invisible. The cut on the sole is done flat and the sole leather must be mellow for me to slice the sole leather more than half an inch deep and trust me there is not room for mistakes. I will post a picture when the boots are finished.
Nasser

Marcell
The channel on the welt is cut carefully and with sharp skiving nife, It is to hide the thread for longer life, We use salt in winter to melt the snow here, So I started cuting this channel to hide the thread and if it is done correctly, The thread should be invisible. The cut on the sole is done flat and the sole leather must be mellow for me to slice the sole leather more than half an inch deep and trust me there is not room for mistakes. I will post a picture when the boots are finished.
Nasser

I think I know what you mean.. I just thought, that you know a better way what I learnt.

Anyway thank you!

Here is the above boot with the sole stitched.

Bunny,

If you're using the Simple Shoes method for your first pairs, then Crepe is probably best. I think Sharon outlines it's use in there, with a resource list too, I think.

There certainly are more durable sole materials, however their density or stiffness would probably be too much for just the cement in that type of construction. But Crepe is probably a good place to start.

PK

No, no resource list. the only supplier mentioned in it is larkbooks and their craft links on the website. The only suspect resource for me is MacPherson Leather, but their Rubber products link keeps giving a 404 error. I called them to ask for a catalog but they don't have one and said the link would be fixed in a couple days. We will see. OK, I will try the crepe first. Can I make heels with that? I have to have some lift I'm finding that flat is hurting my feet more and more every day. Age and weight is getting to me.

And that boot up there is absolutely beautiful. I really like those button sides.

(Message edited by ridgerunrbunny on November 01, 2007)