The Crispin Colloquy

Frank,

That looks to be a useful book. And thank you for posting it.

There's no better way to create "lines of communication" than to define a common language.

I think Golding...particularly relevant to this discussion...uses "tab" in the same context as your #4 definition. But maybe even a bit more specific in that the "tab" is the forepart end of the facing. I've never seen or heard anyone in this country using tab in any other context.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

Hello All,
I haven't made as many lasts as some of you but it seems we have a crossing of subjects and issues: that is the custom fitted last or custom created last for a particular pair of feet
vs.
the average measures and curves developed by a company around which lasts of a particular style are produced to create mass marketed footwear.

The issues for a good fit remain the same, but the goal of each is complete different; one to fit an individual and the other to fit 75 percent of the population with a particular foot length whose ball and heel are, well, average in size and location.

Bill Tippit, thank you for being so informative. To DWII an examination of last sizing charts that include the width across the heel, it appears there are a few different 'sizes' that could be built up to comfortably fit a custom footwear client. Even though the size measures vary from company to company that is one of the most important things to get, including the insole pattern, when you digitize and create your 'custom' designed lasts.

What is the big deal? depending on the 'client' the correct means to the same end, a shoe that that person thinks fits.

Al Saguto, it would be great if you could share more details on the publications you mention.

Commentary welcome.

Lisa,

The Dayton Last Co. book? What "publications"?

The Dayton book is a small volume with page after page of grading charts for men, women, and kids. If you call me at work I'll see about photocopying it for you: (757) 229-1000, ext. 2543.

I have been exchanging e-mails with Paul Krause over the last few days in regards to a run of lasts that I have termed "logger".

They came with a high back-part (which I am modifying out) I want to see if we can get Bill to comment on the reasons for this feature. I have been told one reason (for ladies lasts), and I have theory's I tried intuiting - can we get an official explanation, i.e. machine uses, construction and fitting?

Erick

Erick,

I'm not sure I can give you an "official" explanation. I will say that I was surprised just a little at just how high the backs are on these. If I'm judging correctly they look to be a little higher than most boot backparts (the cones too). I don't know of any particular machine issues that would require extra height. Factories sometimes like to have all of the lasts on a style the same height to avoid having to adjust settings on certain machines when the operator changes to a new size but no operation I know of requires extra height except lasts used on Desma type injection molding machines and these don't come close to that requirment.

Certainly fit and construction would be issues. There is a lot of reinforcement, etc. in these types of boots and the more "meat" you've got to last the material to I suppose the better the fit and the more consistent it would be. That's the reason for the "boot" or "reverse" heel curve where it comes back out at the top. When I first started working in JV's factory and learning about what the different lasts we made we being used for, I was really surprised to learn that western boots were made on lasts with some of the shortest backheights and one directional heel curves while lasts for other boots, athletic shoes, and even some oxfords had higher backs and reverse curves. Of course that was after I finally realized we made lasts. I was there for several weeks cutting out heel plates and thought we made heels because everybody always called it the heel factory since that's what it had been in the 40's. I had no idea what all those yellow things on the racks were for but just assumed they were used in molding heels. Good thing I started asking questions.

Most last lathes can't turn lasts with backheights higher than around 6" max. I think there are some now that can take it up to 8" but unless you turn the last in two parts and stick them together that's about it.

Nothing "official" and probably not all that informative so if anyone else has any info please feel free to trump me.

Bill Tippit
www.globalfootwearsolutions.com

Since my name was mentioned, surely not in vain, (wait, didn't DW already use that line?) I'll jump in on the question. Nothing to added to the answer, though, I'm afraid.

I sell White's boots here in Northern Arizona, to the wildland fire fighters. White's primarily makes a logger or packer boot. Both of these styles are laceup derby styles (at least that's how I'd describe them). I too don't see the need for a raise like this on "logger" lasts. The boot opens up at the counter top line, and anyway, isn't it lasted unlaced? I've only made one pair of lace ups so far, but I don't see it. You certainly couldn't remove a last from a pull-on with this last, could you?

On this vain, I understand White's uses a last model, that someone even called "the old 55". What's the background of this last model? It sure does have a strong arch! And a great reputation, I'd say!

Oh, and Bill, speaking of reputations, I'm sure glad you started asking questions too! Those lasts three pair of lasts, you did for me, made for some very happy customers. A public thank you.

PK

Paul,

Humble thanks for the comment. I'm glad all of the back and forth we did resulted in happy feet which is of course the ultimate goal of what we all do.

I've heard of the White "55" last but I don't have one so I can't comment. We may have made some of those when I was at JV or I may have seen it when I did a project for them at The Last Word.

Perhaps the high back and cone on the logger styles were helpful in developing the patterns for the production run. One of these days I'll find time to take a course in bootmaking, pattern engineering, and maybe even pedorthics where I can see this business from the the other side of the fence. It would be nice to expand more than just my stomach in my old age.

Bill Tippit, Sr.
www.globalfootwearsolutions.com

By the way Paul, YOU'RE the one who's mainly responsible for the smiles. You made the boots fit and I'm sure anyone who has seen them will agree you made them real eye candy. All I did was get you close on the lasts.

Bill

Aw shucks Bill,

You sure are complimentary for a guy with an expanding belly.
Let me know when you take your courses, I'd like to be in 'em, too.

And while we're throwin it back and forth, may I say, helping us get it close on the lasts is no small deal. Not when mistakes come at $130 a pop!

PK

HI All,
I'm wondering if somebody there could have a reference Chart to get the Ball, Waste, Instep measurements from a woman shoelast.
I'm having a lot of information on this but nobody has clear idea for a common way to get the measurement on the same points.

Thanks in advance...

Gigi,

There may be no "common way to get the measurement." Even the lastmakers themselves measure some of these girths at different places than the shoe/bootmakers.

The closest thing to a "reference chart" that I can think of is the Crispin Colloquy's discussion on Sabbage's Sectionizer. Go to:

"Open Forum:" >"Techniques, Crans and Visualizations:" >"Sabbage's Sectionizer"

Sabbage doesn't deal with women's lasts per se but much of the theory is applicable.

In passing I would say that the best advice anyone can give you in this regard is, after studying Sabbage, to make some trial shoes on your last (your own personal last) and compare how the measurements you've taken...at points you've determined (perhaps arbitrarily)...actually relate to your foot and what you desire in the way of fit.

Sure, it seems like trial and error but if you read Sabbage, it will be educated trial and error--you'll be close, in other words. After that, it's just a matter of refining the technique.


Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

Thanks DWFII for your answer, I'm Italian shoelast maker and we are not using too many charts, or special traps to make lasts, we just taking the length and girth, and make sure the shape look good or as the customer wants.
US customers are always asking to get also waiste and instep, but we don't have any reference point to be sure which is the correct point to get the measurement.
So I believe you, may be everybody have all different references, so I think should be good enough to follow our own point.

Hi Gigi,

I am sorry I could not add to this conversation sooner but I have been very busy. I have worked as a last maker in the US for over 30 years and I have a pretty good idea of where most of the US shoe companies measure the various girth sections on lasts and how they arrive at these locations. As DW said, there are slight variations as to where different people might measure certain fit points but the two pictures I'm posting (hopefully posting) should give you a good idea of what are more or less the US "standards".

The instep is traditionally located using a size stick, a Krippendorf finder, and a chart based on heel heights. I have never seen documentation that says who "Krippendorf" was or how he/she arrived at their method. However, as CAD systems evolved over the past decade and we were able to precisely see where these Krippendorf points were located relative to the rest of the last it has become apparent that the instep location obtained using the Krippendorf finder was more or less at the 50% mark of a line drawn between the base of the heel at the featherline and the end of the toe at the featherline and then projected straight up to hit the cone at what then became, the "instep point". Please look at the pictures below and if you have any questions we can continue this discussion either here or offline if you wish to email me. If the images are not clear enough to show the text and lines I will email them to anyone who wants to see them and will also post them on my website at a later date.


Bill Tippit, Sr.
www.globalfootwearsolutions.com

OK, I'll go with the slightly smaller version
\image {iso view}

I hate trying to hurry.

I'm having so much fun I thought a couple of pictures of the infamous Krippendorf Finder would be appropriate. Annotation was for someone for a different project.

Bill, Gigi,

Bill, that's great stuff! Glad you took the time to post all the pics....especially the Krippendorf. I'd never seen one--I thought it was a "stick" kind of like a sizing stick.

Gigi (and Bill jump in here if you disagree),

It is notable that the only similarity between the places on the foot where *I* take measurements--such as the ball, waist, low instep, high instep, short heel and long heel--and where Bill has located them on his last is the ball. Of course I could be the odd man here (despite the certainty that most of my measurements are the product of a long and verifiable tradition) but as you see, I even have two insteps falling somewhere in the general region of Bill's one instep. And if I took the short heel from the foot and tried to make it correspond to Bill's short heel on the last, the proper last for the fit I want to see would measure way bigger than my foot measurement.

The point is that Bill's methods are impeccable--for a last maker--and almost incomprehensible for *this* bootmaker, at least. Yet somehow...mostly because I both rely on his professionalism and ignore his girths, it all works out.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

DW,

It's also noteable that there are many disparities in the locations of these measurements amongst the various boot and shoe making schools of thought. We truly are an industry of no standards, yet many standards.

The Krippendorf "finder" is just an attachment that measures 7.5" from the vertical arm of the stick it's attached to, to the end that marks the instep location on the last. However, without the stick and size/heel height charts it's not much more than a good back scratcher.

The girth locations posted in the pictures are the "industry standards" meaning the mass production shoe industry. When Gigi mentioned US customers I assumed they came from this group. When making a custom last I can use these locations or I can easily measure the last I'm creating wherever my customer wants me to. I also use a high instep measurement for boots. I have the location I use for the high instep and a logical way of keeping it relative from last to last but again, I can measure wherever the bootmaker desires. It's easier for me to change the location and angle of a line on the CAD system than to try to get 250 boot and shoe makers to all do it my way.

These are the things I'll be discussing in my presentation at the HCC meeting in October. Come one, come all and bring the throat lozenges. I think there will be a lot of discussion.

Bill
www.globalfootwearsolutions.com

Thanks to all, specially Bill, I really appreciate your professional points,
I've posted some further information about the Italian last making on this address on the web site ready to be downloaded for all of you guys, so I hope we could exchange some more informations, regarding different way to get the last measurements...and I'll post further more.

http://homepage.mac.com/gigiagostini/FileSharing15.html

I've heard that somebody concerning about that in US is loosing all the background on the last making due the main shoes Company are gone out from US to develop, no more last factory means no more young generations to learn this job, this it will happen in Italy too in the next 10 years, so I'm glad I found a place where we could share our experience...you guys! are doing a great job!...thanks!

Hi All,
Yesterday I've posted my message including the web site address where was possible to download and sharing some files regarding the last making in Italian way and some information on Chinese measurements rules.
I see that somebody delete my post , I think is not fair, because I believe that this was a forum create to share information on the last making , from differents point of view.
I'm feel sorry about this happen, anyway if someone would like to get back the address, just email me.

Gigi

ERRATA CORRIGE!...my post has been not delete, just my browser didn't charge the page from internet but only from the cache memory so it was the old html page...I'm happy I could share my files with all of you guys...;-)

Thanks!
Gigi

Thanks Bill, for you to explain so clear your point for Ball, Waist and Instep, and Krippendorf...you did great!

here below some of my notes, but is not a fixed rule too

from the ball area to waist we keep 24mm distance on the featherline and on the bottom, same 24mm to Instep, but remember this measure is considering a woman last.


Anyway , someone get the waist from the narrower point after the ball girth, and the Instep at 25 mm from the waiste point.
(I would likt to insert a pict. but I don't know how to post on this page, I'm trying but even with drag and drop i'm getting only the link to my desktop but is not charging the image, could some one tell me how to do it?)

Thank you!

Gigi

Gigi,

Look to the left...there in the narrow frame is a listing for "formatting." If you click on "Formatting" you will get instructions on how to use the forum and how to post a photo.

After reading the instructions, try posting a photo to the "Test" area. If you are still having problems after that, contact me and I will help you.

Yr. Hmb. Svt.