Glues and Cements

[jon_g]

Lisa, if it's for making uppers, have you tried Cat's Paw, it doesn't smell so bad either, at least not compared with Barge rubber cement.

[sorrell]

I just did an experiment with Elmer's Glue, the water-soluble, little kid's kind. It rubs off of smooth leather (like rubber cement) and holds the design marked onto it (like rubber cement).

It took a little longer to dry than rubber cement does and it doesn't hold the design (I use baby powder to mark my designs) quite as good as rubber cement does but it was very close.

I want to get really excited about this idea. Does anyone have some cold hard facts that are going to bring me back down to earth? I really, really hate rubber cement!

Lisa

[sine_qua_non]

Not strictley related but, I am trying to find an equivalent to "astral wax" for finishing forepart edges and heels, it softens with little heat and penetrates deeply and crucially one can rub off excess after ironing leaving a hard surface that resists scuffing which using pure beeswax does;any ideas recipe would be much appreciated.

[bj_goodman]

Lisa, sorry about the delay. We use Elmers school glue-the blue gel stuff-all the time here in the theater. We use it for gluing new fabric covers on books for TV and movies, adding decoration to costumes, inserts in shoes and even sometimes as a super hair gel. It washes out with water and dish soap, does not leave any residue and is cheap. I have put fringe on antique lampshades with no problems and no adverse effects. The down side is it is very temporary. Maybe a week before it begins to break down and loose its tack. Also-learned the hard way-sweat on any surface prevents it from sticking.
If you are sewing through it I would watch closly as it is gummy and balls up like rubber cement so it could foul needles and thread.
I'd like to know if it works out for you,
Brian

[kemosabi]

Anybody tried this yet?

Water based contact adhesive

Ran across it today while searching for a distributor of Titan DX, so I picked up a pint to experiment with.

Cheers,
-Nat

[kemosabi]

MSDS

-Nat

[kemosabi]

Got a chance to play around with the Titebond NeoprenePlus and I'm a bit confused about the best method to use it. The application instructions say:

"Allow adhesive to dry before bonding surfaces. Position surfaces carefully before assembly because bonding is immediate upon contact. If surfaces do not bond immediately, the adhesive has been allowed to dry too long or not enough cement was used."

So: allow it to dry, but not too long!?

After painting both surfaces and allowing it to dry, I found there was no bond at all. Heating with a heat gun made it start to tack again. I'm thinking the trick is to use it "green"... meaning; put the pieces together as soon as it starts to get tacky.

Is this behavior similar to Titan DX and other water based contact adhesives?

On the plus side: It brushes on really easy. Not to mention the lack of violent smell coming from the can.

-Nat

[romango]

Nat,

Solvent based neoprene cements behave pretty much the same. They need to be dry but not sit dry for too long. You are usually looking for the solvent to be pretty much gone before joining.

With solvent based, this usually means about 1/2 hour on a thin to medium coat. If you go a little longer, then some heat can reactivate.

I suggest you do some time trials and see what gives the best results.

[kemosabi]

Thanks Rick. That gives me a better idea of what to expect.

Seems like it dries much faster than Barge, but that's just based on initial experiments.

-Nat

[dosia]

Hello everyone,
I came here looking for a non-toxic answer to barge/contact cement. It's the only thing taught to use in class for attaching the upper to the mid-sole. I googled a little and came up with http://www.dap.com/product_details.aspx?BrandID=48&SubcatID=8 DAP WELDWOOD contact cement. I also saw the Titan DX. Just wondering of what other people have experienced with these products. I also am a painter and the acrylic I use to make paintings has a high resin content but the drying time is a little longer than a contact cement (similar to white glue). Does anyone know if this is a possible replacement. - Thanks-
Ambrosia!

[dw]

I use the Titan DX...not exclusively but a lot...and I like it. It is water based (so no fumes) and cleans up with water. Once dry, it is comparable in strength...or a least adhesive power...to a neoprene solvent based cement. The bad part is that if you let it dry on the brush even for a little time, it will require a solvent to clean the brush. This can happen fast and unexpectedly so I use a silcone spatula to apply it.

All that said, I have used it to adhere the outsole to the bottoms of the boot and to build heel stacks.

It is particularly useful when your vamps and counter covers are oil stuffed--solvent based cements will fail immediately in such circumstances. The Titan DX will not only adhere to the oil stuffed uppers it can provide a stable base for a second coating of solvent based cement, if wanted.

At one point I was using a formica contact cement...sounds like the WELDWOOD...and there was not very much difference between it and Barge. The fumes are noxious, and as one gets older and lung function diminishes (no doubt bolstered by breathing those fumes), this becomes an issue.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[janne_melkersson]

All my career I have been reading on the cement cans that it is a cancer risk of inhaling the fumes. I don't want to scare you guys but it is time to take the warning on the cans for real, The only substance that has been proven to cause leukemia is benzene a substance that is in one or another name a part of most cements of today. I got AML (leukemia) two years ago and the Dr. are pretty sure my years inhaling the fumes is the reason I got it.
http://www.cleanwaterpartners.org/benzene/
I am doing pretty good today and the cancer is gone through bone marrow transplantation but I have a problem with GvHD (check it up on the net)so if this mail could inspire someone to install a fan to get rid of the fumes or at least be carefull with it I'll be glad.

[jon_g]

Janne,

I am very glad to hear you have responded well to treatment and I hope you find a solution to GvHD soon.

This is probably one of the most important posts on this forum. Thanks for the reminder.

Jon

[jon_g]

I received an advertisement with an order today. It's for a new Renia product called Aquilim, a water based solvent free cement.

Has anyone tried this product already?

I'm going to order a small quantity and I'll let you know how it turns out.

[organika]

Please do. Also any comments on the smell?

[raving_raven]

I just looked at the Renia page. No acetone or other solvents. Only water. No smell and colorless!

http://www.renia.com/englisch/education.html

I intend to try it as well, as it is the glueing that keeps me from trying a lot of things that I would otherwise. I will have to see if I can find it locally.

Thank you Jon Gray!

[djulan]

Hi,
I tried this years ago. If it is not a newer, easier version, it requires infrared heat equipment as a drier and activator. I have an infrared activator, but it did not meet specs for the cement, and as a result I had poor results with Aquilim.
The best water based adhesives I used are from "Basic Adhesive" (http://www.basicadhesives.com/13a.htm). But even Basic Adhesives does not claim good results for soling purposes.

David

[romango]

I've always used AP cement (neoprene) when gluing upper components together before sewing. Particularly where there might be stress on the bond while sewing, like sewing the vamp on an oxford. I recently discovered that using regular rubber cement can work better. The trick seems to be to use 2 coats of the rubber cement. This results in a pretty strong bond but it is also more amenable to being repositioned than an AP bond.

[russell_c_cook]

I don't know if this has been discussed before, but I was wondering if animal/hide glue is ever used in shoemaking? Can strong hide glue be used to attach a sole?

Any ideas would be great.

Regards,

Russell Cook

[dw]

If it has ever been used in leather-work...and it has, in bookbinding at least...it has been used in shoemaking. I think one of the problems with it is that it dries too slow.

Nassar was playing with it at one time I know.

Mostly pastes* are starch based--potato flour, rice flour, etc.. I'm not absolutely certain what Hirschkleber is comprised of--I've heard conflicting information over the years, but it is a mainstay for me.

* I have edited this post to correct the misuse of the word "glue" when I really meant paste.

[russell_c_cook]

Thanks DW. I did some digging around on the web and also found that it has a relatively short "open time" when it can be used.

I also read that adding a small amount of alum can increase it's water resistance.

I plan to begin my shoemaking with the most recommended synthetic glues and perhaps experiment with animal glues further along the learning curve.

[dw]

In my opinion, I would learn to use pastes*...natural pastes...in preference to synthetic, solvent-based cements wherever possible.

Shoemaking in particular, has a long history with pastes--at one point in time...and when shoes were at their height in terms of refinement...there were no synthetic cements. Everything that needs to be done with an adhesive can be done with pastes. Sometimes not as easily or conveniently, but it can be done.

Solvent based cements are dangerous...even with good to excellent exhaust systems. Anytime you can smell something...cement, rotten fruit, etc....there are micro fine particulates of the material in the air and in your nose. Solvents in particular, enter the blood stream quickly.

Words to the wise?...your call.

* I have edited this post to correct the misuse of the word "glue" when I really meant paste.

[russell_c_cook]

Hi DW,

Thanks. My inclination is certainly towards non-toxic glues, I was just concerned I'd be making learning the basics of the craft more difficult my beginning with these kind of glues.

The first pair of shoes I'm working on use adhesive to attach the sole to the upper (that is no stitching). Would Hirschkleber be able to do this kind of work?

Btw, I won't be able to get online for about 2 weeks as I'm off on holiday, please don't think I'm being impolite!

[dw]

Well, that's why they call it "cement"..rather than "glue"...construction.

Before there was cement there was thread.

[das]

DW,

"Shoemaking in particular, has a long history with glues--at one point in time...and when shoes were at their height in terms of refinement...there were no synthetic cements. Everything that needs to be done with an adhesive can be done with glues. Sometimes not as easily or conveniently, but it can be done. "

My observation is, shoemakers have long used paste not glue per se. The first non-paste adhesives I'm aware of traditionally are the early solvent-based things later 1800s. Things like hide glues--never.

We're trying to break our "addiction" to using solvent cements, but I don't see paste like Hirschklebber filling the void of AP or rubber cement. Some of the Latex cements, perhaps.

As far as I've been told, Hirschklebber is potato starch-based, and it's a damn fine paste as pastes go, but paste in shoemaking has never been a stand alone method of attaching one thing to another like AP became. For example you could never stick the lasting margin to the insole with it (alone), you'd need to paste it then whip-stitch the upper to the insole. AP is strong, fast, and holds by itself eliminating sewing/stitching--paste is not so strong, slower drying, and not intended to hold things alone or permanently. IOW, don't curse paste because it won't do what AP does. AP and it's relatives like press cement are artifacts of the "factory" and mass-production that have insinuated themselves into our work because they stick great and are cheap and readily available.

Take a turn through Golding on bespoke shoes--you can make a fine c.1900s welted shoe, sewn seat, stacked leather heel with only a little paste here and here, lots of stitching and zero AP. Ditto on women's turnshoe pumps, especially with white-stitched heel covers. Other style and types? Well that might be more problematic. Additional stitch types like the various "bracing" and "whipping" will need to be learnt and put back into practice is all.

Footwear, like everything else we make, is somewhat limited in style and certainly construction to the methods we have at our disposal. If we take AP and other cements out of the equation, we just need to reverse engineer the footwear to pre-AP cement eras in construction and style (in so far as style is limited by the construction)--"adapt & overcome". On the plus side, some mighty fine shoes and boots were made before AP cements--if they did it then, we ought to be able to come close today.

When folks are ready to ditch their sewing machines for 100% hand-sewn, give me a call