The Crispin Colloquy

Dear brothers, (Please excuse me, but it's just the way I feel about you Full Welly Makers)

For the last few years my life has had a syncronicity to it that just facinates and encourages me! I feel exremely fortunate to be working through my first full cuts in your cyber presence, at a time when so many of you feel such an openness and interest in discussing this style of boot.

I'm going to transfer my blocker to the cruel board today. I'll post a picture after I wrestle with it.

Tom Mattimore, I've experienced what you mean about the effort expended chaseing wrinkles. I felt like Popeye when I was done!

Chuck, Good job on the inlays. After stitching such a long pattern on my own seminar boots, I can appreciate the difficuly it was for you. And I'm encouraged to try it.

Jesse Lee, I do a good bit of leatherwork on the side, and I look forward to your presentation on your guitar strap. I have two alligator guitar straps pending more info from the customer. I do know he wants them to have a core and feathered edges with no stitches present. And a detachable box for another devise. A very dressy look.
Bookbinding has always called to me, but my feet got on the bootmakin' path before following that interest.

And DW, I want to say this. I know you have always taught much of your success as a bootmaker, is the result of your search for predictable outcomes. As in, your patterns are designed for your lasts. It's part of a system. I respect that and have found confidence in it.
The crimping process that we are all discussing, is obviously not such a given that there is one way to get 'er done, and you have said as much. I appreciate that you demonstrate a willingness to see value in these different approaches.
And how cool for you to have this subject, which is so dear to you, open up like this on your birthday weekend! What a great present!

PK

Questions
Do you block the lining then the top?
How thick is those boards and how many boards do you need to complete the job,and I presume where you have the indentaions is where those irons go?
I have followed this with great intrest and realize I have enough on my plate trying to learn what it is I need let alone trying to swim in too deep of waters.My hat is off to ya all.

Jessie
Like Paul I do a good bit of Leather Carving it would be nice to see your work.

Ed

Most of my boots take just a cuff lining when called for I do a full lining. I have 5 boards but only enough clamps to use three. The boards are two layers of "die Board" or 13 ply 5/8 ply wood. the edge is tapered to about 7/8 to make it easier to put the clamps in.

Well, here it is.


Whad'a ya think? Better than I feared.

I had impetuosly gone ahead and dusted the grain side with talc when I redid the easy crimp yeaterday. I did so before your good advise, DW. So what I did this morning, when I took it off the board, was wipe it down with my stretch solution for it's alcohol content. Seemd to cut it, so I think I'll be ok, but I'll do the same to the other to make sure they look the same. Probably should do the same with the backs too.

I tacked the top at 1" intervals about half way down and then let off a tad on the throat iron.

With humidity at 13%, maybe I can take this off Thursday, or so. Then I can do the mate!

PK

Paul,

About what I was expecting. And dern good for all of that. I would call that near to perfect...it is almost exactly what my last pair ended up looking like too, except they were black.

I think you're good to go.

Do try Tom's method on your next pair, though...you might end up mad at me for all the work and worry on this pair.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

Paul,

I had always used powder when crimping, (sort of like WD-40, if it is supposed to move, powder it.) Will admit the finish on the grain side was pretty well damaged, but thought this was just the price of all the beating, banging, and rubbing. After DW's comment, will try it without powder next time (also polish up the boards) to see if it makes a difference. Notice that Tom did not use any. Just goes to show, you need to consider the source of advice. We are all "experts", If you don't believe it, just ask us.

Chuck

Nice work here gentlemen! Can someone please post a closeup of the crimpers? ( are they called so, the screwable "things" ). I don`t know how they crab the leather.

I have one pair full 90 degrees stretched boot leathers from the 1930-s and these were pulled and stretched with pliers and fixed with nails at the edges. Tried to do also like that but....failure. Want to try again, but thinking to build new board and these crimpers?
Please correct my vocabulary mistakes if I made them. Thanks!
Cheers
K.

Kaspar,

crimping iron AKA crimping screw

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

While in divinity this morning it occured to me to ask.If one was making an ankle booth would the crimping board be needed,and in Koloff's book there is a picture of a crimping board to make the vamp on a slip on shoe,no irons just tacks.

Ed

D.W.
I am glad it worked out on the Beaumont. I am also glad that this is repeatable by someone else. I knew you would be at the bench to give it a try. Once you get the hang of it it should go quicker I did not want to say this earlier but the one I photographed including taking the pictures took 16 minutes. The Beaumont is much firmer and takes a longer time to wet and work. I am impressed it went quickly for you.
Paul
Looks fine. should work for you. I have used talc mostly on linings both between them and under them But real talc is harder to find don't use that cornsilk baby powder it makes a nice paste. About once a year I sand and repaint the boards with an oil base paint they look a little ratty now.

Thanks for the encouragement, Amigos.

Ed, I've made the ankle boots in the Koleff book and didn't use a crimp board. I think the reason it's not needed is because that vamp is made in two sections joined down the center of the vamp. So you can cut your break in the ankle and stitch it, making crimping unneccessary.
There would be alot of waist using a FW crimp board for ankle boots, which are usually just 6" or 7". From what I understand 12" is the shortest height one can crimp on this kind of board, so that there is an equal portion of leather to stretch on both sides of the heel screw. Of course that may all be subject to change now that we see the success of using Tom's sequence for cripming on the long boards, but I think that logic still holds.

I have made and used the board illustrated there for slip on shoes. It gave a nice shape to the tongue. I didn't need cripming irons as tacks were sufficient.

PK

Paul, Ed,

I suspect that the more one can incorporate Tom's method the less it will matter how high a top is wanted. The 12 inch limit is predicated on the assumption that there needs to be enough leather on each edge--bottom and vertical--to stretch equally...to avoid tears. Tom's methid pretty much side steps that whole concept.

BTW, I've seen vamps crimped (yes, crimped) with no board at all. Just a string and some tacks.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

Thank You DW.
Well I haven`t had time and will to go trough all the forum materials yet.

Cheers
K.

Paul,

Looking at your cruel board crimp picture. If it were mine, I would say excellent, better than most. I have only used black leather. Let us know how you are going to handle the discoloration around the break point, or is that just an artifact from the picture.

Chuck

WOW...

I have been watching this for the last few days and I am truely amazed. The contributions that all of you guys have made are like nothing presented on any other forum. This has been like watching the World Series.

This is genuinely a teaching forum and you guys should be proud.

From a newcommer's perspective this has been educational and entertaining. There has been collectively over a half of century of experience sharing on an almost forgotten art.

Well it is because of all of you guys, the old and the new, that it will not be forgotten.

I would like to throw in a special thanks to Paul who put it all out there to start this amazing lesson.

Again, I just have to say WOW! and thanks.

BTW, DW happy belated birthday. That's what great wives are for. She saved you from being a year older.

Thanks,

Mark

There's sure been a lot of good information passed around in this topic recently...so I thought I might remind members, especially the newer members, that there are some wonderful, irreplacable, old photos over on the HCC homepage under the caption of "The Texas Photos."

These small thumbnails open up to a larger photo when you click on them and capture traditional techniques from literally three-quarters of a century ago.

Yes, it's all about bootmaking but some of the techniques shown in these photos are "cross-cultural" if you will--they preserve techniques that were used in both bootmaking and shoemaking right up until modern times.

In some instances, the photos show techniques that are nearly lost despite being venerable and respected skills that evolved and were perfected over many hundreds of years--ultimately, having been supplanted by the false economies of the factory.

Give them a look...they're worth studying every so often...over and over again.

Emmett

All,

Well, I'm not yet ready to shout hallelujah from the roof tops, I'm but getting there.

The following three photos are of a front that I crimped this morning...using a somewhat modified variation of the Mattimore Method.

The leather is a one and a half to two ounce veg kangaroo. I wasn't expecting this to work, really, not only because the leather was so thin, but because kangaroo must be cut parallel to the backbone (right down the center of the hide, actually) and that precludes any stretch along the edges. Of course, I used reinforcing strips on this leather just because it was so thin.

The first photo is starting out with the toe tacked and a little tacking under the toe of the board--about three inches from the end. The last two photos show the finished blocker. The first of these is the "bad" side, the second is the good side and you will notice a small rip just below the throat iron, which I tacked , after the fact, to halt further ripping. The rip looks worse than it is (the underlying 'roo is just barely ripped) and I could have avoided this if I had released and re-positioned the throat iron when the leather got so tight it was twanging like a cigar box banjo when I flicked it. that in itself is good to know.






So...all in all, success with kangaroo...mind you I've still got to get the other blocker on the board, and I've seen roo crimp pretty as you please on one blocker and go all to the devil on the next.

I don't know if somewhere, someone is looking in on all this and saying to themselves "what's the big deal...that's the way we've been doing it for years?" Maybe one of the "elder boot gods" looking down from heaven.... But I have never run across any literature describing how, precisely, to block a front for a full wellington. I learned my methods from intuition and what scant evidence (as on my 19th century board) I could glean. I believe, in the absence of information to the contrary, this method is a step forward, if not a new method, but at the very least, it has deepened my understanding of why and how.


Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

(Message edited by dw on February 07, 2007)

I too searched all the literature for clues and found none. One entry in Hazard's book about Thomas Mackedon kept me going.
On 1-2-55 he was paid $850 for crimping 18,900 pr
On 1-14-56 $956.07 for 21,446 pr
At the rate of $.045per pair.
Tom

Kaspar

Can I see some pics of these?

I have one pair full 90 degrees stretched boot leathers from the 1930-s and these were pulled and stretched with pliers and fixed with nails at the edges. Tried to do also like that but....failure. Want to try again, but thinking to build new board and these crimpers?
Please correct my vocabulary mistakes if I made them. Thanks!
Cheers
K.

I have used standard pattern crimping boards and irons as well as lasting tacks pullers. Also have the Hessian/Hussar crimping board. That one is for tacks and pullers only.

Jesse

One lady who`s father was a shoemaker has his old 90 degrees grimpingboards. As I can recall they were some 0,5 cm thick and eaten by moths a bit. Well have to ask them for myself. She has already given me her fathers old stuff but then I did not want those boards.
Here are the leathers ( those I got from another person)

Cheers
K.

Kaspar,

Thats absolutely beautiful. You have a nice collection there.

Jesse

Tom,

What more could you tell me about Hazards Book? I'm not familiar with it.

Pk

The Organization of the Boot and Shoe Industry in Massachusetts before 1875
By Blanche Evans Hazard
Originaly published as Harvard Economic Studies volXXIII Copyright 1921 Harvard University Press.
A good outline of the growth of the shoe industry I tend to be leery of her conclusions as to the cause of the growth of the factory. She had the oppurtunity to interview boot makers and factory workers of the 1850's and 60's who were still alive then Unfortunatly she was more concerned with economics thean technique.
Tom

Thanks Tom,

"Unforunatly" is right! I'd love to read about the boot makers of that period, as much so as the techniques.

All I've ever read was the bio's, if you will, of the Justins, Lamas, and Luccheses. Obviously they were all imigrants from sometime, somewhere. Jesse has mentioned the line of bootmakers he came thru. Who was in those lines? Who were those guys at the end of the trail drives that took the orders from the cowboys for the next time they were back in town. Were they men who revered St.Crispin? Whose family was it that moved West and opened shop, and was there to give 'em what they wanted? Former miliary apprentice makers, who wanted independence, and to practice their craft without being bothered, the same as the rest of us? So many vintage boots are unsigned. What kind of men were they, whose tools we see on ebay nowadays, bought in an estate sale by someone who doesn't even know what the tool is? What were their stories? How did they come to do what they did, as this very American foot covering was evolving?

All contributions to the conversation welcome.
(Come to think of it, these questions have probably been asked and answered somewhere in the Colloquy before. OK, I'll do a search and look, maybe in Shoes in History?)

PK

Still in the trial phase...still confirming that the "Mattimore Method" will work with a broad range of leathers; still finding my own comfort zone and working with the concepts to integrate them into my system--boards, etc..

That said, I did the other kangaroo blocker this morning. It turned out really well. No rips.

I am struck by several things: first, using this method the corner iron does not need to be cranked out as far as with my method, in order to get a smooth "painted on" crimp. I thought this would present a small problem in that I wouldn't know how far to crank it out and, ultimately, I want to be able to trim off the crimping iron marks...completely. Fortunately, my boards are marked with a throat line and all I have to do is ensure that the high corner of the iron cap is three inches or more from the throat line. Good thing too because I don't think there is as much forgiveness along either edge as with my method...of course, my experiences are limited and these blockers (which are "for real" not practice) are 'roo, and that in itself could make a difference.

Second, the throat iron doesn't need to be cranked out as far as with my method...in fact, the vertical edge of the blocker seems to end up straight all the way to the top. And that means very little distortion in the sideseam edge.

Third, there is still that magic moment that happens just as you are about to dispair, when suddenly the pipes just disappear.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC