The Crispin Colloquy

BTW, there's an operators manual in pdf format at this site:

http://www.bootmaker.com/manuals.htm

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

The manual I have is the same as D.W.s link. Tom

I have been looking at the pfd file on the Landis K 12.Can the same manual be applied to the 12 L.My buddy is taring his all to H88@ for not knowing and being to smart,he's banged up one 12 now working on the other.The first is salvageable with a little work so I will step in on this project.And is Pilgrim still selling replacement parts or is there another source.

Ed

Ed,

There is much similar between models....probably more so between the "K" and the "L" than between the, say "F" (which is what I have) and the "L."

Bottom line though, is that the principles are the same. So, while a part on one machine may differ slightly on the other it isn't going to differ much (form follows function) and will usually be located in roughly the same spot.

I have rebuilt several machines in my earlier days. One was a Landis, the other was an old Champion curved needle that came off a ship. I didn't have a manual for the Champion (didn't have a manual for the Landis, either for that matter) and it was wired for DC current. What's more, it had been disassembled to transport to the auction site and reassembled, and the guy that put it back together obviously didn't know what he was doing. He had some parts, literally, in backwards.

I got that machine together and working, although I never liked it much. But the point is that I never could have done it if I relied on a non-existant manual--you have to reason it out...study the parts, ask yourself "what is supposed to happen here,"...and it will be more or less obvious how to put it back together.

Yes, I know that's a simplification...but there is just enough truth in it that it will bridge the gap between any differences in model. You have a manual for the Landis 12...that's over half the battle right there.

Good luck...

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

DW,

I will take that lesson in hard knocks and proceed with the task at hand.Thanks

Ed

Hi,
I'm new to this neck of the woods, so I hope you can forgive my ignorance.

I was drawn here particularly by the discussion of the Singer 236 machines being sold by Mac's hardware. Mention has been made that these machines may be more trouble than they're worth, so I'd certainly be interested to know what sort of problems occured.

I'm simply looking to get a post machine for super-low volume work on shoes, handbags and gloves (assuming,in my ignorance, that this is the right sort of machine to get at all). Given that this is really just hobby work, and I'd probably only be making a handful each year, rather than per day as I expect many of the contributors to this forum probably do, I'd rather not break the bank.

If I'm trying to stick at the lower end of the budget, the only options I've been able to find are:

* the machines at Mac's,

* waiting for a machine to crop up on eBay (and hope not to get outbid), and

* getting a new machine such as the Yamata FY810, which would be a lot more than one of the Mac's machines, but might be cheaper if I have to sink time and/or money into making the used machine function.

I'm mechanically savvy, but I'd like to focus on my hobbies, not spend my life fixing things. I'm also not planning to get anything that's not up to the job.

I'd certainly be very appreciative of any hints that anyone might give me.

Many thanks in advance,



Rice.

Jim,

First of all, welcome to the Crispin Colloquy. Hope you enjoy your stay and find us useful.

I can't speak to the 236. I have a 136 post machine (single needle) and I like it. Buying a used or refurb is almost always the best way to go. Some of the newer machines are actually of lesser quality than the older ones...but lots more complicated in case anything does go wrong.

Try Melanie Machine.
Arnold Kay
Melanie Machine
4371 E 49th St
Vernon, CA 90058
(323) 586-2090
fax (323) 586-2097

He almost always has a good selection of leahther working and/or shoe machines.

You could also look for a 51 (?) class singer. they're pretty old and needles are hard enough to come by for it much less parts but they're very simple to adjust and could probably be had for around $50.00 (for the head only). I started out on one on these.

Talk to Mr. Kay, however. You've nothing to lose and he's very savvy and he might be able to suggest an alternative.


Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

Jim

Welcome here. I may be able to help as I own a 236W125 that I modified and use as my primary machine. Runs well and short of swapping it for a Pfaff 491 I wouldn't give it up without a fight!
The only problem I have is a small leak in the gasket for the oil pan under the post. Only a couple of drops a week. It works fine, it's just a little messy. The rate this thing is leaking I figure it's less than a quart every century so I'm not all that worried.

From the website I do not get the idea that Mac's is very knowledgeable on sewing machines so I would try to go there and try a machine before you buy. I would certainly prefer the 236 over a newer but lesser quality machine from the far east. (unless you own a boat, the Chinese machines will do just fine if you need an anchor)
Truth be told I have no experience with any of the far east machines. All I can go by are the old Singer and Pfaff's that after decades of service in the factories are still running in our shops as smoothly as the day they were created.

Do you have any dealers nearby? If so go there and talk to them. Here in New England we have an excellent resource in Pilgrim out of Quincy, MA. If you get stuck with the machine and need some parts you should call them. I find them very helpful.

If you buy the machine and you have questions just ask, I've taken mine apart to the frame and put it back together. It's been a couple of years but I think I remember the most crucial parts.

Remember that the low volume should not be to much of a consideration. If it ain't working the low volume doesn't make you any less frustrated.

Hope this helps in making up your mind.

Rob

Jim,

I use a 236 and I am perfectly satisfied. I had a terrible time at first and had one 236 dropped by the freight co. It is my parts machine. I purchased another 236 that still has some problems. After the third one went into production I never had any need to fix #2. I am keeping it for a backup and of course the damaged one is just a parts/boat anchor. I worked on the third one and after many hard lessons, I think it is just right. I learned that you do not have to take the pan off to un-stick the stitch length mechanism and much more, After I got if working it never has given me any problem whatsoever.

Please follow the counsel that DW and Robert has given you. It will cost you much less in the long run and you won't have all that frustration.

I wish you well! Larry Peterson

Hi,
Wow, I'm blown away by the outpouring of both welcoming, encouragement and useful input. Many thanks to DWFII, Rob and Larry one and all, and thanks in advance to anyone else who might chip in.

I'll try and distill the advice you've all kindly provided. Please don't hesitate to correct me if I've got the wrong end of the stick. I'm clueless enough about this that it'll be easy for me to screw up:

- The 236 machine is good for the task I have in mind (shoes, handbags and gloves).

- The Pfaff 491 would be a good alternative.

- People prefer second-hand machines to new Chinese machines.

- Melanie Machine is a good place to try.

- Mac's hardware probably isn't the best place to try.

--------------

A little editorialising (sorry if this is long):

I'm very interested by the general objections I'm hearing to the Chinese machines. I have no axe to grind either way (and hey, I'm a refugee Limey, so I have no particular allegiance to any sewing machine's country of origin). I've certainly observed in other fields that US, UK or even German manufacture doesn't necessarily guarantee either good design or manufacture (hey, my British cars leak like sieves).

I live and work in the heart of Silicon Valley (my wife, who's a native insists that it's really the Santa Clara Valley). This isn't exactly the sewing capital of the world, so any purchase I make is pretty well guaranteed to be sight unseen, hence my delight at getting a pointer to Melanie Machine. I'm certainly interested in dealing with people with a good reputation, and that was certainly one of the qualms I had about dealing with Mac's. They clearly have no clue about the machines they have, which isn't surprising, they aren't in the shoe business, after all. This wouldn't be a problem if the machines were all in perfect working order, but, ....

I'll freely admit that I recently got one of these fabled Chinese machines, a Yamana FY5318 walking foot flatbed. My reasons for doing this were really based on the advice I had got to this point. Although I had previously managed to track down some other suppliers of used machines, e.g. http://www.johnharbsew.com/, none of them is close enough to me to help much. The second hand prices I had access to on eBay all seemed to spiral out of control for machines that I couldn't even see. It's clear that I could easily have spent five times as much for a new walking foot machine than I did, and maybe it'd last five times as long, but for my usage pattern, that's irrelevant. My lifetime use of any machine is never going to get anywhere near burning out any machine unless I choose not to fill up the sump. Of course, there are serious risks associated with getting a second hand machine. However solid/Victorian/Brunel the engineering, if all the bearings and bushings are worn out, it'll still never sew well. If I take delivery of a worn out second-hand machine, I'm either stuck with having to fix it, or send it back at considerable expense.

Incidentally, although my Yamana machine is new, and I really don't have the experience to give an informed opinion of the quality of the Yamana machine relative to (say) a Singer of Pfaff machine, I can at least say that from an engineering point of view it seems solid and well put together. There are no obvious design or construction flaws, and unlike some of the criticism I've seen of Chinese machines, it's all solid metal, except for the useful little plastic window that shows the oil flow. I gather that the hook will wear out faster than a Japanese hook, but odds are I'll never wear this one out, and I can trivially replace it with a Japanese hook.

The motor it came with was a "Family" brand servo. It seems plenty torquey, and with the speed control turned down to the minimum, and having replaced the actuator lever with one that's three times as long, it's now the second most controllable sewing machine I've used. By far the best machine I've ever used in this respect is a domestic Singer CE-200.

FWIW, I'm a nerd in the software business, but I started off life in control engineering. These motors are quite probably way better than the older clutch type motors, but as far as I can tell, none of these motors that claim to be "servo" motors are worthy of the name, at least by my standards. I reckon that if you look at the parts list and you can't see a tachogenerator or ideally a gray wheel, you're pretty much in open loop land. I may be decades away from this sort of thing, but I can't help thinking that even so I could design something better.

Incidentally, I was in a local sew-and-vac shop the other day, and they were busy putting together a new Singer machine. It had a sticker on it saying "genuine Japanese hook", which I took to be a sign that the whole of the rest of the machine was made in China. Ho hum. The guy putting it together was whining and having all the same sort of silly little problems putting it all together that I had with the Yamana machine. Hey, I suppose that industrial sewing machines really aren't the same as Ikea furniture.

Thanks ever so much to everyone once more,



Rice.

I think we've all been there, you hear that funny noise from your machine, take a screwdriver figuring it's just a loose screw and next thing you know you have a table full of parts and feel your in a little over your head.

I've had a jackmaster in storage for a few years, had to re-wire the unit as the old power cords were cracked and broken from old age.
When I ran it I heard some funny noises. I assume the bearing are shot as those are the known weak points on these machines. I found out that this machine takes a type UC207-21 bearing, the current bearings are made by Fafnir and I found out on-line that they have been taken over. I can not find the bearing I need from the new company, Timken. A shoe machine dealer has bearings for the Jackmaster for just north of 95 dollars each. On-line I see this model bearing listed for as little as 10 dollars each.
Has anyone experience using after market bearings? Not that I'm looking to go as cheap as possible but if I can find a decent pair of bearings for under a hundred dollars it would make me feel a lot better.

Any help is appreciated as I feel slightly in over my head.

Rob

Almost any large city will have a couple of bearing suppliers. If you take it to them with a number or not they should be able to match it from I.D., O.D., width and r.p.m. speed. At $95 bucks for a bearing I may go into the bearing business.
Tom

For what its worth and to reiterate Tom's point, I once bought an old Champion curved needle machine that came off a Navy carrier. Besides having to rebuild (it had been in pieces) and rewire (it was set up for DC) the thing it had a bad bearing on the drive shaft. I carefully measured the old bearing and winkling out a bearing manufacturer in the Thomas Registry, bought one that was in almost every way identical to the original. Just stock parts.

I would think that the bearing off your jackmaster might be the same sort of situation...the only place I can think where a bearing might be located is on the drive or the brush shafts, which I believe are the same diameter.

Another thought...call Melanie Machine--he has a warehouse full of parts.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

Tom, DW,

At $95 bucks for a bearing I may go into the bearing business.

My thoughts exactly.
I don't know much about bearings but at that price I can learn.
Thanks for the suggestion, I will certainly check out my local bearings 'R' us.
It does bring up an interesting question, RPM on a Jackmaster? I can not find any manuals or specs for this machine on-line.
If I remember well from school most grinders to run around 3000 to 5000 rpm. I would assume it's on the slow end of the spectrum but that's just a guess.
Anyone have any ideas on the actual speed?

Rob

Hope this finds everyone well. I have lots of machines that I wanted you all to know were available. If anyone would like photos just drop me a note and I’ll be happy to send them along. They are as follows:
Landis 12 Model L Aristocrat, Landis 12 Model E, American Model B, Champion Redline 66,
Champion Model 77, Landis Model 88A, 2 Landis Line Finishers, 5 Autosolers and a HeelWheel. Have a great day and thanks for checking out the post . . . Randy

All,

Thought I give you all an update on my quest to find new bearings for my Jack-Master. I did go to a local bearing dealer and found the correct type of bearing, $37,- each. They even installed it at a very reasonable rate for me.
I also was able to locate a manual for the Jack master. If anyone is interested just shoot me of an email and I'll scan it. The machine runs at 2000 RPM and the cutter at 6000 RPM in case anyone was wondering

Rob

Sirs;

I was wondering about the manual machines sold by Tandy and other leathercraft suppliers. I see no mention of them, and was wondering if that's because of the slow speed or something else about the design or use that would make them a bad choice for a small time bootmaker?

Thanks!

Greetings, I have had a Tippmann Boss, since it uses heavier threads useful in the making of stitch-down footwear - 138 - 277. I would call it a decent machine. I "upgraded" to a used Tippmann aerostitch, not available anymore I don't think, operated by an air compressor, but it needed repairs so often that I got rid of that one also. Now I have a new "cowboy stitcher" from Toledo Sewing Machine, made in China, and it is functioning fine thus far. I am doing far more stitching than repairing now, a welcome improvement. Sharon

Sharon,

Could you give a little more info on the "Cowboy Stitcher", web sites, etc. I am looking for a machine to do heavier stitching, sideseams, etc. and feel the Tippmann is too expensive for what it does.

Chuck

Greetings, I'm back online now and looking for a few machines.

Puritan low post chainstitch machine
Singer #2 oil drip treadle machine
antique trimmer with wheels (small)
small line finisher, just the sanding wheels, sole, heel etc.
Old Mckay stitcher

Thankx,
JesseLee

Tippmann aerostitch. There is one on Ebay today, Don't have the link handy sorry.

Greetings, I don't believe Toledo Industrial Sewing Machines has a website - they're at 866-362-7397. I have the Cowboy Model CB-3500 Heavy-Duty Leather Stitcher. The fellow there will be happy to send you information. Mine hasn't had heavy use, but so far it works fine.

Recommendations needed! I am thinking about bidding on this machine on ebay:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=150216028426&ssPageName= STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=005

It looks impressive but I have never heard of this one. Any thoughts about whether its a good deal or not.

I also have an alternative for a Singer 138wSV7 post leather sewing machine that I can pick up locally for a good price.

I would like them both, but can only afford one at present so need some input here, if anybody wouldn't mind.

Bunny

Bunny,

Nice and clean, that's for sure.

I'd want it to have at least a single toed foot, or better yet a roller. You'll find it hard to make curves and sharp turns with a double toed foot like this. Maybe there's one in the accessories picture, but I don't see one.

A table could be made for the post machine at the level of the the throat plate, if everything else is good one that one.

Paul

The Singer Post I have not seen up close yet, I just received info on it this morning and am going up to see it next week end. It comes with a table, lamp, motor, head, accessories. The price beats ebay buying.

But that Good housekeeper keeps drawing me to it just for upper sewing. It sure does look clean. I can just see people rushing to buy it tho, the Singer Post is a sure bet, but the ebay machine isn't.

Bunny