Outsoles

[jenny_fleishman]

Tim, I have very straight and high heel bones, with no fleshy padding around the bottom of my heel. I also have very slight (almost undetectable), but VERY sensitive "pump bumps"--worse on the left heel. Been to several docs over the past 20 years for it. It doesn't look like it should hurt, so most of them think I'm nuts. This, literally, is why I decided to make my own shoes. Can't find any other solution!

My sister has similar feet, but because hers aren't so sensitive, she's worn worse shoes over the years, and has pronounced bunions AND much larger "pump bumps." But, ironically, she's able to find shoes that don't hurt more easily than I can. Must have fewer nerve endings!

Jenny

[artzend]

Jenny,

What is a pump bump? It's not an expression I know but someone who has experience with this sort of foot may be able to offer advice.

On first glance though I would think that a padded topline should be the go. If the bumps are on the back of your heel near the topline you could try cutting the top of the middle of the stiffener, so there is a dip in it. Leave the stiffener the right height along the sides but remove the piece that will press on your heel.

Have you tried using bunion pliers to work on the stiffener just where the problem is. This is assuming you have leather stiffeners, it won't work with synthetic stiffeners.

Could you photograph your heels with the back of your lasts nearby so we can get a better idea?

Tim

[jenny_fleishman]

Tim, "pump bump" because it's often caused by pumps. Rob suggested the same thing regarding the counter, and on my last pair of shoes I didn't quite do that, but I thinned the leather significantly over the tender area of my heel, and when I stiffened the counter with press cement, I stayed below that area so I would not harden it. This may work, but these shoes are too loose at the heel, so I'm revising my lasts again.

5080.jpg

Probably on the wrong thread for this discussion, though!

Jenny

[artzend]

Jenny,

I am still not sure what the pump bump is, your foot looks relatively normal from the photo.

Put some extra padding in the forepart of the shoe, under the ball of your foot and tapering off under the toes so they are not pushed up to hit the top of the shoe. This will push your foot back in the shoe.

Tim

[jenny_fleishman]

Tim, it's an enlargement of the top of the heel bone. Mine is more on the outside of the top of the heel, so it doesn't show in profile, but the lack of padding at the bottom of my heel does!

Jenny

[artzend]

Jenny,

It sounds like the same thing as a spur, a small calcification buildup. Add a buildup to the last in the corresponding place before you make the shoe.

With the lack of padding under the heel, you could cut a circle out of the insole right under the heel area and insert some surgical foam. Skive the edges of the hole and once the foam is overlapped, reduce the edge of the foam with a grinder. Put the foam under the insole.

Failing that, put some foam under the sock, it shouldn't affect the back height unless the foam is too thick.

Did the packing in the forepart of the shoe help with sloppy fitting?

Tim

[jenny_fleishman]

I still need to reduce the volume in the forepart of the shoes. I do have a lack of padding under my heels, too, but I was referring to the profile of the back of my heel. Many people have a bulge of padding towards the bottom of the back of their heel. I don't, so heel counters that curve in at the top (as most do) cut into the back of my foot at the topline painfully.

My homemade lasts have heels that go almost straight up, as do my own heels, but I am finding that the shoes tend to slip at the heel. I am modifying the lasts, narrowing them around the topline along the sides of the foot, and making some other adjustments. Will try on the new duct tape fitter shoes tomorrow. Hope to eventually find a fit. I don't feel so bad about gouging the last pair on the grinding wheel since they they don't quite fit, anyway! Ahhh, every cloud has a silver lining!

Jenny

[josie]

Hello- I hope this is an appropriate place for this question. If not, please excuse me. This is my first post on the CC although I have been reading it for about 9 months now.

I am at the point of sewing my outsoles by hand on my first pair of boots, and would like any suggestions on the size of the square awl that would be best for someone just starting out. I imagine the size relates to the number of stitches per inch, but I'm not sure about this either. Any tips or suggestions would be greatly appreciated. DW suggested some of you who do stitching by hand may be willing to jump in here and help. Thanks in advance.

[das]

Josie,

Stitching awls would not be my first recommendation for a beginner. I'd recommend you start stitching the outsoles with sewing awls (oval section) until you really get the hang of it. Stitching awls (square points) are very unforgiving. They must be evenly sharpened and perfectly polished their full length, to pierce through with a simple push, because if you wiggle or twist them through, they'll snap-off. If the point is not evenly sharpened, it will plow off, wanting to cut in towards the boot or shoe, or out away from it, making even stitching impossible. And, it is far too easy to cut the sewing stitch underneath the welt with the stitching-stitch if you go too close to the inseam. In full-time supervised training, 40 hours a week, most of my apprentices are not allowed near one of these until their 4th or 5th year, whereas they start stitching soles with sewing awls usually in their first 6 months. And even at this rate, they are lucky to not ruin the first few pairs. Out of 6 full-time 6-year apprentices the past 17 years, only one came to "love" the stitching awl, and got anywhere near proficient with it.

As to sizes: awl blades are sold in lengths, not point sizes per se, and the points vary wildly from one manufacturer to another--they are not consistent with length IOW. I'd buy an assortment of stitching blades (Lord knows where you'll find them from these days anyway) in 2 1/2" up through 3 1/2" in 1/8" or 1/4" increments, and see which length (size) suits the work you're doing best. Ideally you might aim for 10 to 12 stitches per inch--if you can find any welt leather that will hold more than 12 stitches per inch these days without cutting through or tearing, please let me know.

And good luck to you!

[dw]

Josie,

Welcome to the Crispin Colloquy!

I am no expert on this technique. Few are at this point in time...it is nearly a lost technique and given the disdain for traditional techniques (especially if they take more time or more skill) that abounds in some circles, there are few that can advise you with any authority on this subject. Al Saguto may be one...the one!

But if done correctly it is a different look than is achieved by machine or by using a regular (oval) sewing awl. And it is a really, really, refined look. I wish I had been trained to do hand stitching rather than the way I was trained. I think I would choose it over the machine, despite the time, if I felt I could do it justice.

I cannot advise you on size but I would suppose that a good medium size such as a two and a half or two and three-quarter inch ought to be sufficient. I have done this with a square awl that was given to me and I never measured it. Now I have a range of sizes that I have acquired through the years. But have not had the opportunity to use them.

As Al suggests, almost any size will work providing the tip is strong enough. The angle that the point is sharpened at might be important, as well.

Not to intimidate you, but at one time 18 to the inch was considered "middling" work--not exceptional, in other words. If you can do ten to the inch and control the lie of each stitch, the tension on the top thread, the spacing and "line" of stitching, you will be doing good for a first time.

As for welting, I've never seen a better welting than the horse strips I get from Horween. You have to cut and groove and chamfer your own but it is worthwhile especially compared with commercially available welting. That said, I never had access to really premium old stock the way Al might have, so it might be a real revelation to see welt that could hold 18 to the inch.


Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[das]

DW,

BTW, I thought Rees said 12 per inch was middling"? No need to frighten people like that

Even in the best hands, 18 per inch would be brinkmanship today IMO--the leather these days is such flanky crap, it's like stitching through a slice of Danish ham. Women's 18thc. white forepart rands, made from white-tawed (kid and calf)skins 3-4 oz. max thickness, were often stitched (with square stitching awls) in the 20s or 30s to the inch. Can't recall recording any men's 18thc. welted work done much above 10-12 per inch--most of the survivors were stitched with a sewing awl at 8-10. Nineteenth-century show-off pieces (prize-work) never meant to be worn, however, have been recoded with as many as 64 per inch IN THE WELT *sheesh*. Maybe they just never pulled those stitches very tight?

I used to use the horse strips from Horween (via M. Siegel), but for the past 2-3 years they come through way too thick, stiff, and they cut-through
even at 8 per inch sole-stitching, if you so much as snug a stitch down tight. Their hose used to come soft-rolled, and closer to 5-6 oz. The new
stiff is like 8-9 oz in places, and flinty hard *yuck*. We switched to using a curried German butt leather for welts we bought as samples, but that's almost gone. Not sure what to try next.

Al

[dw]

Al,

12 to the inch? Heck, I think even I could do that!! Well, maybe I ought to try it before I make any extravagant claims.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[josie]

Al and DW,
Thank you. That puts a different twist on things.
Josie

[chuck_deats]

Josie,

Thanks for bring up the subject. That's what I am doing now. 7 to the inch is the most I have tried. Question for Al or DW: Should the slits from the awl (either square or sewing) be parallel to the welt, perpendicular to the welt, or at a 45 degree angle, or does it make any difference?

Chuck

[dw]

Al,

Unless I am mistaken (not unknown) you can order the horse strips thinner than 8-9 ounce. I think you must have gotten a bad batch though, because, although I am not outsole stitching by hand I am inseaming by hand and I've not had a consistant problem with it in that regard. I really bear down when I inseam and sometimes stitches get pretty close and scarey. But even though I am piercing right on the edge of a bevel and into a groove in the welt...effectively reducing the thickness to at least 6 ounce, if not 4 or 5--I seldom have problems with blow-outs. Of course, I don't have access to the curried German stuff, but the horse welt is miles ahead of the commercial cow welting. There's a real "yuck" for you.

Josie, Glad it helped...one way or the other. I knew Al would give us a clear perspective on this.


Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[dw]

Al, Chuck, Josie,

Got to fooling around...I think I could do 12 to the inch fairly easily. 16 might be another matter.

As far as I understand...Al can (and should) correct me if I am wrong...the slits are made perpendicular to the edge of the welt.

One of the things that makes this technique so attractive and compelling is that, done with the right weight of thread and at the correct spi, the stitches end up looking like little beads...little white beads...rather than a rope. The rope-like effect is common because it is the effect that you get with a machine that punches a diagonal slit. The diagonal directs the thread to lay always at a slant.

Much of what I am relating here comes from a very generous Al himself(over the years) by way of a sometimes lazy or sloppy memory (mine) but some of it comes from observation and reading. For example, there are some photos of Lobbs shoes in HMSFM that are apparently stitched by hand using this technique. It is hard to see the detail but right off the bat it is quite noticably different from all the other welt stitching in the book--done with a sewing awl, if I remember correctly, and at long spi.

As for making a difference...there is even some suggestion that the number of strands in the thread might make a difference as to how the stitches lay---an even number producing one effect, an odd number producing a different effect. I don't remember the exact which-a-way.


Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

(Message edited by dw on August 10, 2007)

[angel]

Just a question:
Is there any functional advantage in stitching at 18 or even at 12 to an inch? Or is it only for appearance?
I've been stitching soles of english riding boots at about 5 to an inch and thought it was OK. I have been wearing them for long in this way and they seem to work well.

[das]

All,

Yup, the stitching awl makes slits: I I I I I I I I I I I tangent to the welt's edge. The stitch is wider in thread, often, than the distance of the exposed stitch. Way back in the Forum archives there ought to be 100 pages on all this, with sketches and other not-so-fancy graphics.

The sewing awl makes oval holes, which are inherently weak where the ellipses come the closet. Therefore "stitching" welt/soles is the stronger method, because you can get more thread (and wax) into the work by using fatter threads, and more stitches per inch (to within reason) because of the closer placement the slits allow. Using a sewing awl for this, the fatter your thread, the bigger the awl needs to be, and so the fewer stitches per inch. Of course in the hey day of hand-stitched soles, they didn't have wonderful Barge AP cement, which in combination with hand-stitching, makes all of this rather a moot point.

Odd number of strands creates a round thread, which is what you want for sewing in round/oval holes. An even number, gives you a flat thread, which is what you want for welt/sole "stitching". And for stitching, too, the thread's not twisted as tightly as for sewing, or "inseaming", so it lays like a flat ribbon stitch to stitch. The intervals are then pricked with the "stitch-prick" to divide them nicely and make then stand up prominently. When well-done they do sit like a nice row of pearls.

As to those horse strips, the last 2 times I insisted Seigel send soft rolled, 5-6 oz., and it still came through 8-9 in places, and as hard as flint. You were hard-pressed to get the stuff to lay out flat going around the toe. I soaked it in tallow, and broke the grain to loosen it by boarding it, but it was still like using a strip of Masonite *Yucky* If my insole shoulders weren't so nicely rounded when the come from J. & F. J. Bakers, I'd get ultra-traditional and just use belly-strips off those, and a welt-mill to split them down to the thickness needed.

Al

[dw]

Al,

Try calling Horween, direct. Talk to Skip (Skip Horween). The stuff I am buying does not seem flinty to me (although...remember this is from the guy who used to use soling bends for insoles) and it is sold as "soft rolled." I am not certain if you were resorting to...ahem...hyperbole or not, but I have never had any of the problems you are describing. I sew around quite narrow toes (probably narrower by a considerable margin than what you are used to) without having to cut or "relieve" the edge of the welt at all--and it lays nice and flat around the toe. Not like masonite at all.

Or not...just a thought.


Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[dw]

Angel,

Most folks who stitch with a machine are running around 8 to the inch on the welt/outseam. [As an aside, I run 5 to the inch on my sideseams using an ASN machine.]

As Al mentioned ((or implied, anyway) more stitches and more wax makes for a longer lasting seam....but only up to a point, in my opinion. 18 spi is probably overkill, heck, 16 spi is probably overkill. And, of course, in reality you probably don't even need to stitch at all if you are using AP to adhere your soles.

But if you want that bead-like or pearl-like effect that is the hallmark of hand stitching, you need to have thread that lays nearly as wide as the stitch is long. Once you start getting below 10 spi you'll lose this effect completely with anything short of about 15 cord thread (I'm guessing and maybe even exaggerating). So if you're doing five to the inch you won't gain anything by switching from a sewing awl to a square awl.

I will say this...I use the curved needle most of the time. And while it is a little harder to control, the welt stitching, and by extension, the whole boot, looks a lot better with shorter outsole stitching than with longer. It's actually amazing and I try to stitch 10 -12 spi with all dress boots. They look so much more refined and elegant.


Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[chuck_deats]

5303.jpg

Six to the inch, Square awl at 45 degrees, Seven cord button thread with beeswax, still wet. Would look beter if I had followed above advice, but too late. Next time.

Chuck

[dw]

Chuck,

Nothing wrong with that. I don't know if this is your first time or not but once you get it trimmed and edged and dyed, it will look terrific.

What is "button" thread?


Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[paul]

Chuck,
That looks pretty good.
I admire the effort.
I'm too attached to my curved needle to give it a try any time soon, but I appreciate the example you set.
Thanks for putting it out there for us.
Pk

[chuck_deats]

DW, Paul,

Thanks for the kind words and all the help from all on this forum. Josie, See what you started. You are not the only one struggling. Look higher on this thread at Jake Dobbin's work to see how it should be done. Button thread is button and craft thread available at almost any fabric store. It is a cotton glazed polyester, the same size as my #10 linen. It is white, my linen is a light gray-tan. There was an earlier discussion in the thread thread (bunch of threads). Now, back to pegging.

Chuck

[josie]

Well, here is what I ended up with. Al, I have to admit you talked me out of trying the square awl for now. So, I went back to leather working techniques- diamond leather awl, spacing by eye, using a brown nyltex thread. As you can see, I don't have a fudge wheel to make the fancy indentations. Any comments or suggestions would be appreciated.

5310.jpg

Maybe for the next pair, I'll buy a square awl and a sewing awl and maybe even a fudge wheel. Still have lots to do to finish up this pair.