The Crispin Colloquy

Tom Mickel,

Well, somewhere on this forum is a set of pics that show an experiment I did some time ago (these pics are also included in my new book). What I did was take some scrap leather of medium to easy temper, cut a full front blocker and a dress cut blocker, and scribe a one inch grid across the the leather. I used the center line of the patterns as an origin.

Then I crimped both on their respective boards. What I found was a little at odds with what I'd been told but enlightening all the same. The grid, and the leather bounded by the grid that lay in the area of the break compressed in on itself. The leather along the edges, and moreso as you got closer to the edges, stretched.

Of course, this was much more pronounced on full cuts than on dress cuts but it was there in both.

I learned several useful things from this little exercise...one, where the most stretch had to happen and hence how to cut the blockers. Two, that the finished boot would in no way be damaged goods. This is the contradiction I mentioned. I had it from a little bird that because full wellingtons had to be stretched so much, the final product would have little or no life left in it. This is certainly true along the edges but proper patterning assures that all of the damaged leather will be trimmed off.

As for your diagram, let me say this immediately: although I am not sure what you are trying to achieve the back board pattern is sitting about one third the distance of the heel curve too high. If we assume that the top of the comb is three inches from the featherline, the break of the board should come down a little more than an inch. These are not just arbitrary numbers, the CP (counter point) on a medium sized last will be at or near two inches (one-fifth the SLL...Standard Last Length), and the break on the back board represents a point five-eighths inch below that (seam allowance).

Also, the way I use the backboard is to cut a rough blocker and crimp the bottom edge over the bottom of the board a little. But over the edge or no, at least a half an inch or more will be trimmed off and still yield three inches to the throatline (throatline to insole plus one inch lasting margin).

Does any of that make any sense?

BTW, earlier you asked what the reinforcing strip was made of. I use lining leather and generally cut from the margins of the hide (belly, mostly.)

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

Tom Mattimore,

See that's what's facinating to me. I started out making FW's on one board. But in order to do that I had to switch my basic patternmaking philosophy to use a wider throat.

To cut the throat of my boots narrower, as I do with my dress cuts, I had to move to a more severely sharp-angled board. And, as the "long lost Al Saguto" would say..."overcrimp."

In order to use the variety of leathers I use, (even, when I'm feeling very brave, kangaroo), very little of which is pure veg, I have to employ both the easy board and the cruel board (the severely angled board). I need the pre-forming to achieve a smooth blocking at the steeper angle. Howwever, I might note observe that when I have had the opportunity to crimp full veg (hard to find a dress leather in pure veg), it seems to cooperate a lot better than the veg retan or the full chrome. I can well imagine it might be a whole different story if I used full veg (as the historical boots all did).

Other than that for me it's two boards (three, actually if you count the back boards) and one go-round at each.

That said, Chuck, I am kind of excited to learn that you could take an onery blocker off the easy board and re-crimp it and expect to gain on it in the process. I never would have thought that it would help much.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

Guys,

We need some photos!! I would like to see your boots Tom Mattimore, and yours Chuck, If you are having trouble posting them, just email them to me and I'll post them for you (just this once )

I was reveiwing the photo essay I mentioned earlier (it's kind of a "sticky" on this forum. It's remarkable if only because it dates back seven years. And yet except for Tom Mickel's brave attempts (I don't you've had any training, have you Tom?) and Paul's student boots, I'm the only one who has ever posted a photo of his full wellingtons.

Mick Nissem is out there somewhere making full cuts too.

Sometimes I feel like the Maytag repairman of full wellingtons. But I know from all the feedback I've gooten over the years that I'm not the only one interested in this form. I think we can all gain a lot just studying the shape and form of other makers boots.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

Tom Mickel,

Re: the grid experiments mentioned above...

post on October 30, 2003, 8:07pm


Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

DW,

I've had no training of any kind in FW's except from this forum. I started with a last draft and built a pattern from that. What would be the vamp part was easy because it just follows the last draft. The upper was difficult because I tried everyones standard and finally ended up just using your dress wellington upper design. And darn if the thing just didn't turn out swell.

The hardest part for me was the blocker and I still think that there's a better shape than the one I have. Also, I had to learn to set up reference points on the crimped panels so that I could match the front and back up properly.

I looked at the grid experiments quite awhile ago but still maintain that you don't HAVE to have any compression at the break if you start out with the blocker secured tightly enough that it is stretched above the board. I think that it all depends on how you secure the blocker to start.

But that being said, I've split 3 blockers during crimping so now I think that it may be better to have some compression at the break to try to alleviate some of the stretch at the edge.

The splitting is telling us something but I just can't figure out what it's saying.

Tom Mickel

Tom,

It's amazing how close you are to what I'm doing. Of course you started with video of me crimping a blocker and used my standard and so forth.

I looked closely at your test pics and the first one you did was probably the closest. The front board was superimposed over the last just a little low, as was the back board but they were off only small amounts...and of course these are just drawings--not to scale or anything.

But that being said, I've split 3 blockers during crimping so now I think that it may be better to have some compression at the break to try to alleviate some of the stretch at the edge.

Well, yes that's the problem, isn't it? My first thought, when I was teaching myself all this, was the same as yours...stretch the forepart and the tops far enough apart and secure them well and the rest is just bringing the break area down tight on the board. I don't know how many I ripped out before it dawned on me that this wasn't gonna work. Sometimes we can overthink a problem and get ourselves in real trouble, especially if we are as hardheaded as I am and won't give up on an idea no matter how many times reality slaps a feller in the face.

I have laid the blocker over the board and shaped it with my hands, deliberately and patiently forcing all the pipes away from the break and towards the irons and the edges before tacking the top and toe. I have, in this way, gotten the blocker to lay down flush to the blade of the board all through the break area and even into the "instep" area and up the front of the board. Then I mounted the irons and began...early on with drafts and tightening of the irons, later with just tightening the irons to stretch the edge. In all instances the surplus always worked its way back into the break area.

And thinking about it, I really wouldn't expect anything else. You have vectors of stretch along edges that lay perpendicular to each other and the focal point, because of the shape of the boards, must be at the break. The excess gathers there. I cannot envision any other result. Even historical boots bear witness to this being the central problem and that no one ever solved it...if solving it is really and truly the goal.

But there's the real issue, in my opinion. Especially if you're dealing with pure veg tans, this surplus can be compressed to the point that no un-informed observer will discern it, no matter how acute the scrutiny. Personally, I want the blockers to be so smooth on the board that they look painted on. But that can be achieved through compression alone even on chrome tans although it is somewhat more difficult.

That said, even with the sure knowledge that the leather is compressed...sometimes alarmingly...I have in later years become convinced that there is no harm in that. It is quite natural given what we are requiring of a flat, almost two dimensional, medium. The grid experiments are not just representative of the effects of crimping on leather, they are a study of topographical distortion. Draw a grid in a 3-d modeling program--flat--and then cause it to move through three dimensions...folding and bending...and I suspect that the grid, even though it is just lines on a computer screen, will model the same compression we see on the test cases.

The bottom line is, however, that if the esthetics can controlled--if we can compress (or stretch out) that surplus, it will not affect fit very much...and what effects do arise are usually going to more dependent upon the temper of the leather than process.

And having said all that...if I could find a way to block the fronts without, or by minimizing, compression, I'd be the first in line to try it. And preach it.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

Dear Brotherhood of the Full Cut,

So I'm cookin' my blocker, for another go, as I type.

Here's how they looked when they came off the board just now.

/image{Full Cut relaxed1}
/image{Full Cut relaxed2}
/image{Full Cut relaxed3}

My first observatiuon was, "talk about compression!" It must have pulled out about three inches, when I pulled it off the easy board.

It looks like I might have two tiny wrinkles set. I'm encouragerd by your different comments, that I can pull this out.

Have any of you ever used talc on the blocker? I thought about this yesterday as I was on the road coming back from Las Vegas Shoe Show. (I saw Tippet's Light Beam Scanner there. I'll tell you about it elsewhere.) But we use talc to facilitate the sliding of vamp leathers against the lasts when lasting. Why not crimping also?

BTW, I am thrilled that this conversation is continuing. Thank you all so very much for being open to share the results of your hard earned successes. I'm sure I join many of our other readers and members, in saying your generosity elevates you all in our esteem.

Thanks again,
back to practicin',

PK

Dang,

I think the was slashackwards, er, you know what mean.


How's that?

All,

Have you noticed that some blockers, after crimping, are somewhat thicker at the break line than the rest of the material, so there must be some compression somewhere. Would love to keep everything in tension. BTW, uses for split blockers; put a patch on them, finish crimping and use for fitter boots.

Tom Mickel, Think I could get a copy of NASTRAN(large stress analysis program). If you would input all the non-linear properties beyond the yield point of each piece of leather in each direction, we could make it work. Should not take more than two or three years. Maybe we could get a government grant or something(sorry, Tom, Just could not resist it).

Chuck

Chuck,
OK, OK maybe I'm a nerd but I've never met anyone so detailed oriented as DW so I think he should get the NASTRAN program - I'm going to set back and sip a little single malt instead.

Paul,
That looks awful familiar - been there. I saved myself by doing just what Chuck suggests. Now that you have pre-crimped the blocker you can re-wet it and reposition it on the board and do the real crimp job!

BTW - this pic shows a blocker not stretched properly before attaching the iron. That's my take anyway.

Paul,

Excellent pictures. Seeing something on your blockers that I have not seen on mine; the residual wrinkles on the upper leg. Do you tack the tops to the board on the bottom (i.e. the side where the crimping irons are) or near the top (i.e. near the fold in the blocker)? I normally tack near the top and leave the bottom edge free. This seems to put more tension along along the fold line(break point) and less on the crimping iron side. Yes, powder the inside of the blocker or anything that has to slide.

Y'all must all remember that I am an "expert" (X,unknown, spurt). I have done maybe six pair including ripouts,none perfect. I am learning from this discussion; had not really thought about tension and compression until the discussion of stress analysis. I think one of the reasons for the "cruel" boards is to account for the spring back from crimping. Please keep this discussion going. All inputs are appreciated.

Chuck

Paul,

I hate it when it happens like this. Been there, done that, bought the T-shirt.

I agree with Chuck and Tom, though, I think you should re-block on the easy boards. Now that you've turned it, it looks pretty fair, but I'd still be worried about the pipes having set so firmly in the break area that any further progress eliminating them will be difficult. I would probably even re-block inside out.

I would note that one thing Tom Mattimore mentioned and which I find handy in such circumstances is the "beaded" long stick. I believe you could have bumped most of this out with such a tool. But even without it, if you can move those heavy pipes down and off the edge of the board, particularly in the break area, you'll be in a much better position to move to the cruel board. I would also try to draft more in the forepart before you really bear down on the irons. In other words don't try to move the iron out so quickly. That tends to set the wrinkles. Chase and draft the pipes forward and off the board.

What leather is this and what weight is it?

Tom Mickel...Hey! I'm not the engineer... Besides, it's my birthday and I'm gonna sit back and sip a single malt, myself. (anyone who want to join me is welcome...even virtually.)


Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

DW, Tom,
I'll join you. It must be five o'clock somewhere. DW, Happy Birthday!

Chuck

Thanks Deedub. I'll have some later.

So re-position it is exactly what I did, to this 4 1/2 to 5 oz. Beaumont.


Seems much improved, however it looks like a little more is left. Maybe it'll come out in the wash.

PK

Paul,

In the absence of a beaded long stick, use the handle of your lasting pincers and rub, and press hard, to flatten the pipes and chase them off the board. You might even try tapping the pipes with a polished face hammer. If we're ready to accept that compression is inevitable, if not exactly desirable, then compress those pipes. Once you get them flat from the flesh side, you'll not only be able to move them more easily but when you turn the blockers they will be much diminished--maybe to the point of near invisibility.

That last photo looks much better, however. And turning it will make a whole lot of difference. Let me take a second to reiterate the book and your classes to say that when you do mount these on the cruel boards, mount the irons first, re-wet the blocker...thoroughly even if you have to flood it with warm water in the bathtub...then clear the break area with your hands and a bone smoother, and maybe some R.M. Williams. Now tighten the iron until the blocker is within half an inch of seating itself on the blade of the board...still keeping the break area clear of pipes--and I mean clear. Then and only then tack the toe and the top and begin reblocking to the steeper angle.

Given what you've got this is the way I would proceed if it we me. Of course, I'm not there seeing it and feeling it but I think you'll be alright.

Having said all this...I note that there are a lot of subtle nuances and adjustments you learn to make, not only right from the beginning of a blocking operation but as you proceed. Just remember, you have done it before, you know it can be done. And with every experience, you'll get better and better at knowing what is necessary when.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

Paul what I would do is before you use the screw tack them on the board and just work the wrinkles in the turn first. I ocasionaly use a fitters hammer, that I keep the face clean, or a good size boneing tool will work too. By working them out before pulling you may see what not to pull.
I recall one of my early ones that was so frustrating that while still on the board I smashed the entire assembly to pieces on the concrete in the parking lot outside with my employees cheering me on.
I will try to take some pics this weekend as I have a pair of 10" high to crimp.
Tom

I've been following this thread with interest and was wondering, don't you run the risk of burnishing the leather excessively at the break, with all the rubbing or does this disappear. It would worry me on a light coloured leather and It would be worse on a veg tan too.

TM your story about smashing the boards made me laugh, a local mechanic here was trying to catch up with the leak in a gas tank and he couldn't so the tank got the odd kick with his boot, eventually it ended up over by the door, and the guy still couldn't fix it - this was like after 4 hours of trying, so he ended up by nutting off in the middle of the street, and dealing to the tank with a sledge hammer

More power to y'awl
Tom O'Sullivan

(Message edited by Tomo on February 02, 2007)

Tom Mickel,

Missed your photo above.

I agree one hundred percent. The break area must be cleared before taking any drafts or any tightening of the iron.

Of course we strive to maintain that state of affairs throughout the whole process, but although it is sometimes unavoidable that pipes work themselves into the break area, any pipe that is present and on top of the blade edge when the leather begins to contact the edge of the board will be extremely difficult to eliminate further on down the line...if at all.

It bears repeating, this area must be kept clear. That concept, right there, is, in a nutshell, the whole key to sucessfully blocking a set of full wellingtons.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

Tom, Sullivan,

Yes, some burnishing will occur. That's why we crimp inside out. But not only is the problem less severe with veg tan leathers than with chrome leathers with a finish, it can be mitigated by a judicious use of R.M Williams Leather Dressing or Lexol--something acting as a bit of a lubricant.

As for using talc, as someone else suggested, it is a good idea...once you've turned the blocker right side out. Prior to that, I believe that you would run the risk of impregnating the grainside of the leather with talc--which is, after all a mineral and slightly abrasive (despite its lubricating properties)--and that slight "hazing" might not be able to be removed. Now, it could be that I'm being paranoid here...and if anyone has any contradictory experience please, please jump in and correct me--but I would be cautious.


Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

Hi All, I'm sure not familiar with all the fancy leathers and inlay techniques ya been gettin me drooling over. My experience is in 40+ years of Oak/veg tanned, flesh waxed leathers. Primarily I make 1860-1890's military and cowboy boots. Of which used that type of leather in from a 2oz. to 4/5 oz.

I noticed in the block pattern above the 'half moon' cut out bits at the sides are not very steep ie. circulat/elongated. In my 1860's patters they are quite steep at the throat of the pattern. I find that this is where you need to cut for the stretch. I have one crimping board from the 1860's (the ones I made I gave away along the years. Am collecting a few more old ones.

In using a newer chrome tanned leather I have to either crimp in stages as was talked about above, or go from an shallow angle board to my final board. It's wood and I just paste wax it.

I was taught that when you soak the leather, make sure the water is luke warm, after a half hour or so, when the leather swells, grasp either side by the throat and use your hands in a 'pedal' motion foreward and back, called 'breaking the throat' in my old book (nice terms, right up there with 'whipping the cat'). This makes the leather easy to form.

I center my pattern on the crimping board and tack the tols and sied, bulling with the pincers, doen the shat of the CB. I also use a bone folder or 'Spundt' (a 3-4 inch tool of wood, or horn or metal which is flat on one end and like a circle which veers off like a half moon on the other end. This tool smooths the pipes out with the flat end, on the flat leather and can be used with the oblong round end across the instep to the placement of the crimping iron. it is temporary tacked in the process. Then i pull the toe area tight and tack it.

Now, while still wet the Spundt is used to smooth the leather over the CB (this is done flesh side out. Then pulled with the iron(s) and tacked tightly.

After the leather is in place, use the Spundt and bone folder to smooth the whole front. After the leather is dried it is waxed with an old formula wax, but not on the foot, which needs to be wet for the lasting. Thats only waxed 'after' the boot is dry on the last.

I do not know if this will work for leathers other than Oak/veg tanned. I do know that splits are almost impossible and stretchy leathers easy. It takes me about 15-20 minutes a front to do this with 4/5 oz. Oak/veg.

May as well add 2 cents about whipping the cat.. I found the term in some old books and it refers to a boot stitch and have found that when you hand wax a length of linen cord, and a cat is present, it will try and catch the cord where the cord is 'whipped' vigorously through the wax in your hand, consequently it gets 'whipped'. Teacher taught me that, in a fit of laughter!
JesseLee

Jesse Lee,

Where is the photo of the blocker pattern with the "'half moon' cut out bits" you refer to? I would like to be looking at the same thing you are as I read your post.

I really like the idea of breaking the throat. I have never seen or heard of that but it makes good sense. I'm gonna try that the very next time I crimp a set of blockers. I also have found that luke warm to slightly warmer water just before putting the blockers on the board, helps.

I have to ask...what is "tols and sied?" "Sied" I think is a typo for "side" but I'm not sure what "tols" is. Also what do you mean when you say "doen the shat of the CB?" What does it mean? I would just let it pass but it seems important in your description and I don't know whether it's terminology or rapid typing.

I've never seen nor heard of a Spundt but from your description it sounds a little like a flounder or closer's hammer. I use a metal flounder and a wood flounder (somewhat interchangeably) in the same manner as you describe using a Spundt...along with the beaded long stick, a smooth long stick, and the handle of my lasting pincers depending on circumstances and what comes to hand.

I will extend my offer to you since you are a recent addition to our gang....send me some photos by email and I will post them here for you (while you get up to speed on resampling and posting photos yourself). Disclaimer: This is a limited time offer!!

I think I speak for all of us, in this discussion at any rate, to say that I would like to see some of the tools and techniques you are describing...and of course a photo of your finished product. Most of these guys are probably sick and tired of all my stuff for all these years and would welcome a fresh perspective.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

Hey DW.. Yes, rapid typing. (Tack the) soles' and 'side' it was supposed to be. can't find the photo with the 'half moon bits'. What I was attempting to say/mean is when you cut the full front for crimping, the leg is somewhat tapered, then it 'half moons' out at the ankle/instep area to the vamp area which is below the 'L' of the crimping board (CB) of the instep to toe. If that side area is cut steeper, the crimp is easier I find. next typo, 'then the shaft of the CB (Crimping Board), half blind and my fingers can't keep up to my thoughts... I have also used my hammer and pincers (I call em 'pullers', for that same purpose.
I sent some pics of the works in progress a week or so ago. Can do again. My tools are very simple, can photograph them in action. I have about 5 pair on the go now and will take you up on your offer to send pics.
So much here to learn!!! i only know one area of the Trade, but that area I know very well, hoping to learn some newer and new techniques.

Jesse

Jesse Lee,

OK, now I understand. BTW, I have just extended the edit time to 20 minutes so if you catch your typos too late, you have a little leeway to correct them if you want to. No big deal either way, I just wanted to understand.

With regard to the front blocker patterns, see the drawing below...

I assume your patterns are more like the right-hand side of the drawing than the left-hand side. Is that what you were referring to? That's very interesting!

I have a an old German book on making boots and it details how to do a full wellington . It's mostly well..."German" to me...but the patterns this author was using was more circular--like the right-hand side of the drawing.

Now, it might have been my inexperience (I, like a lot of the fellows here, making this style of boot, more or less taught myself) but, naturally, I couldn't resist. I tried that style of pattern and my conclusion was that it actually made crimping harder. It threw more pipes into the throat. Again, I didn't really know what I was doing at the time (not that I do now) but I suspect that like most of us, your methods work with your patterns. I sure would be interested in seeing how you do this step-by-step. As I said to Tom, I know that's asking a lot so...just take it with a grain of salt.


Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

Since we've been talking about this...and as encouragement to interested paries ...here's a photo of (from top to bottom) the beaded long stick--very traditional; my home-made longstick; a standard steel flounder; a home-made rosewood flounder; and a bone smoother. And, of course, the large Berg style pincers. the ruller is six inches long for scale.


ight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

Hey DW, Them flounder's are neww to me. They look like hammer heads not yet drilled for a haft. I can see the principle though. Very nice tools.

Deffinately more like the right side. I did 28 pics of stuff I am working on here;

http://s162.photobucket.com/albums/t273/JesseLee_bootmaker/?start=all

I just learned to do this today. notice my 1860's crimping board and where the iron fits in, anglewise.

I can do the process when I can afford some 4/5 Oak tanned to make a pair. Out of that now.

Hope the pics help.

Jesse