Tools of the Trade

[fjones]

Tex, Brian, Jake

I don’t know where to start. I thought it would be informative and perhaps interesting for the Colloquy
‘tribe’ (anybody got a better collective noun) generally to know about, and have a little information on, the Drag Knife. I certainly did not want to start a “mine is better than yours” argument/discussion.

Having read all the postings concerned again, I now realise that I might be responsible to getting this approach started. In my posting of 24th Feb. I said - “the drag knife is the specialist tradesman’s tool.” and “The Stanley knife is OK for the guy fitting vinyl flooring who cannot sharpen the blade. When working on footwear, the slightly cranked and curved blade on a drag knife is the professional’s tool”

Ladies and Gentlemen, a formal apology. All I can say is I will try my very best to be a little more humble in future. It would have been much better to have called the drag knife “a” professional tool rather than “the”. If I stray from the straight and narrow again, please do pull me up very sharply (no whips PLEASE). If it is very bad, perhaps it would be less uncomfortable for me if you emailed me privately (great big smile).

To move on, it is interesting that I have only ever seen the lip knife used in the USA. When I first saw one in use, the similarity with the drag knife concept was staggering to me. I think the main difference is partly as described by DW - a drag knife tends to pull in towards the work. This is partly to do with the sharpening - but also see the very interesting comment made by Tex. The other reason is the drag knife blade is also cranked a little towards the work.

So speaking as a foreigner, as I see it you have a superb, professional, all-American tool in the lip knife and I do not in any way want to even suggest otherwise. Now just watch somebody come back and tell me all German/Croatian/Brazilian/etc. shoemakers use them! (grin)

I will stop there before I dig myself into an even bigger hole. A repentant but still smiling -

Frank Jones
frank.jones@shoemaking.com

[D.A. Saguto--HCC]

Tex,

The new green handle lip knives are bad steel, compared to the older USMC brand. I like a lip-knife too for certain things, just the current crop of green handled ones, made in China I suspect, aren't fit for much. I think my old favorite is a narrow, straight bladed Harrington brand...? Anyway, great steel and it holds an edge for days.

[gcunning]

I'm probably going to get nailed for this buuut:
The 'ol Stanley knife works well for skiving and other things. If it starts to get a little sticky I hit it a few times with the stone and it's ready to go again. A pair of regular leather scissors works great for cutting my uppers too. I understand its not very traditional but works for me. Yet, Jake I LOVE Danny Marlin and Rons tools!! I used to skive and still do heavy leather with a "Danny" round knive (not light leather). Then I found Stanley for the light stuff. You can bend the Stanley blade and I can filet a piece of leather easily. I can push the blade or pull it. Good 'ol Stanley does have its uses, "for me". Just my two bit "Green bootmaker" info.

[jake]

Frank,

Sir, no apologies needed! I really don't believe anyone took offense. Even though I didn't comment on the drag knife, I believe most of us tend to stick to what we are comfortable with or stay with the tools we were taught to use. Personally, I tend to follow D.W.'s rationale. I'll try anything once or twice just to further my knowledge in this challenging trade. If I get a chance to try a drag knife, I'll jump right in there. There's probably a good reason the "dead" guys had it on their bench. Anyway, please don't be timid with your opinions. Got any more neat tools lying around?

Gary,

To each their own! Hell, I'm sure some of us could pull out our pocket knife and perform some of the tasks required of a sharp blade in this trade. Personally, I like hearing what people like to use to get the job done. I respect everyone's opinion on what they believe is best.

I've got to admit something here though. For the life of me, I don't know what you guys are calling a Stanley knife. Can you post a pic of it? Thanks in advance.

Adios

[Tex Robin]

Gary,
I started using the Stanley cutting knives years ago. The ones with the two pointed blade. My Father even used them. We would even sharpen them down to the nub. I still use them some but don't sharpen them much anymore, maybe hit them on my ceramic a couple of times and then save them in a coffee can for hard times.
I now use the break off knives and they can be had from wal-mart for next to nothing. I now use the smaller break off knife for all of my skiving and I do not push skive but pull my skiving knife slightly bent. The small break off knives are excellent and can be sharpened. Of course I never break them off. Some are made in ugh, (China) but they have excellent steel for their cost. Hey! THEY WORK and GOOD. However, Gary I do not use scissors for any cutting except for my heel pads. Most bootmakers consider it to be a beginner's tool for cutting. Sorry..Use your knife!
Very nice shop pics. Hang in there and pretty soon you will need another building. I am still waiting for your visit...TR

[Tex Robin]

Al,
I am sorry, but I don't see any difference in the steel of the lip knives dating all the way back to the 50s. I do like the "Hyde" brand better than "Dexter", but it is mostly the shape of the Dexter I don't like. Never heard of "Harrington", but straight bladed are not my choice...TR

[Tex Robin]

Frank,
Hey, no offense taken with your drag knife. You guys do a lot of things different than we do. Look at the way you speak English. What can I say. Just kidding . Still looking forward to your visit. Hey, I have a student from Brighton and he is coming back this year for another dose of our Texas hospitality. He and his wife are both really a lot of fun, and they both talk funny! They are both actually from Northern England. And it is a small world, as he has a best friend who is probably related to me on my maternal side.

I would like to have one of the drag knives and may try one just for the experience. Does "Barnsleys" have them. I may have my friend bring one from England, if he can board with it. TR

[Tex Robin]

Jake,

Stanley is the brand of the knife. It is a utility knife that has replacable blades with a point on both ends for reversing when the other is dull..They are great for cutting and razor sharp when you have a new blade. There is a storage compartment in the handle for the old blades. The Stanley brand may have been replaced with some other brand but they are the same. Try one. Your local Wal-Mart has them if your bootmakers haven't already bought all of them... TR

[jake]

Tex,

Ok.....Thanks! I know which one you all are talking about.

Ain't nobody here but us chickens (Bo Riddle and me). I am worried that the carpenters have scooped them all up though.


Mucho Gracious!

[Lisa Sorrell]

OK, I have to jump in here on the subject of scissors. My first job in a bootshop was with Jay Griffith, and his opinion was that scissors were only for cutting paper. I couldn't even cut threads with nippers--I had to use a knife. However, I started sewing clothing professionally when I was 14, and in that trade, scissors are as valued as knives are to bootmakers. THIS IS JUST MY OPINION, but I think that one reason some bootmakers look down on using scissors is because they don't buy a quality pair and learn to use them properly. I would never recommend them for cutting inlay. But...used properly, they work great for cutting out tops, vamps, counter covers, and all the pieces that go behind the knife-cut inlay on the tops.

In defense of scissors....
Lisa

[Tex Robin]

Lisa,
I am sorry but I agree with Jay on the scissors. I still regard the use of scissors as an amateurs alternative to learning the skills of the cutting knife, which I believe to be required in bootmaking. My students don't use scissors. And I do have a good pair I have had for 30 yrs, that I use for trimming sheep wool and cutting heel pads. Sorry but that is my opinion about the use of scissors. However, it is a free country and no one is stopping you from using them!...TR

[gcunning]

Well I use leather scissors. They are very sharp and I can cut out most uppers or vamps easily. If any of you come to Wichita for the Roundup we can go to my shop and play a little. When I was learning with Carl I picked up a round knife and he told me if scissors worked well get after it. Then I saw him cutting with them as well. Again to each his own.
Tex that's what I use, the knife that you can break off parts. I like it because you can bend it like you described. It is a lot easier than with a knife that will not bend.
Thanks for the shop comment. It seems to have been a long road getting it going.
Tex I'm off in the summer I'll try to come down and see if I can irritate you a little. But I can promise I will not spit on your stone. The only thing is you are going to have to come to my place during the round up.
BTW Brian is trying to get me to put something on during the roundup after the trades day Friday evening. Anyone interested?

[Tex Robin]

Gary,

Yeah, if you are cooking I will be there. TR

[fletch]

Gary,

Brian mentioned it to me too. Count me in and let us know how we can help. I think it is a great idea!

Mark

[dw]

All,

I guess I'm just too persnickety. When I cut out patterns...of any kind...I want to be pinpoint accurate...with no undercut on the edge. Sometimes I'm working to tolerances of one-sixteenth of an inch or less. Any miscut or deviation from my patterns is a failure of the pattern.

Occasionally, I'll use a pair of scissors to rough cut a block of leather...only to cut the final pattern with a knife. I have good scissors, but I lack the skill to use them with the precision of a knife. And depending on the temper of the leather (soft or firm) I find it hard to control whether or not the edge is undercut.

As for Stanley knives...I started with them. I still own several. I find the blades too wobbly (undercutting, again) and I've never met a Stanley blade that I didn't feel needed to be sharpened right out of the package.

I don't doubt that either...scissors or Stanley knives...can be effective tools in determinedly skilled hands, I just don't have those particular skills.

Below you'll see several different kinds of "clicker knife." These are what I use to cut out patterns such as vamps, tops, etc.. I *do* have some skill with them.

2080.jpg

Tight Stitches...
DWFII--Member HCC

[gcunning]

I know in time a might change my mind but this is the way I learned to skive and I'm used to it. I like to bend the blade and you can feel where you are. I have tried to show that in these photos:

2081.jpg

[gcunning]

Lets hope I have this picture the right size.
I'm trying to show how I bend the blade and it gives me a feel:

2082.jpg

[gcunning]

Tex, I don't know how good "I" cook but if I come see ya it would be nice to visit Joe Allen's?
Mark, good we have 3 to show up. You understand around here you have to work for your food
Now, I have met a few here on the CC, Lisa, Brian, Tex and others. There are a few that have been on here from the begainning that I would like to meet. DW, someday I would hope you would come back to the round up. Al its a long way away but it would be nice to meet ya. Lee and Michael I know you both come I just haven't run into you. Now Marc you and Jake are close enough to have a run at Wichita Falls. If Kathy and Eddie do not do anything Friday night I would love to have as many here as possible. It would be nice to know if anyone else is interested. EVERYONE is welcome

[RileyCraig]

Gary,

You can count on me...and I'll help wherever needed.

Thanks for the invite!

Riley Craig

[fjones]

c:crispin colloquy\drag knife photos\temp

2083.jpg

stanley knife.jpg

[fjones]

Jake

Thanks for the comments. Tex was right about it being the brand name for the knife. I have heard it called a “Packing Knife” by supermarket staff in the US. Apparently because they use them for opening big cardboard boxes. Below is a photo in case there is still an confusion. You can clearly see the word “Stanley” on the handle in my original jpg file.

I could not agree more that tools are things you learn to use and with extensive use, come to feel comfortable with. The modern parallel is computer software. Many of us have a favourite word processor, spreadsheet, etc.


Tex

I have not forgotten the invitation. It is just a matter of getting some work in your part of the USA to pay my airfare, and I will be descending on you. Hopefully later this year, but I will give you plenty of warning.

You ask about getting a drag knife. It seems you may not entirely be wedded to that lip knife of yours (just kidding). Seriously, your contact should be able to get one exactly like the third photo in the Proxy posting of Feb 25. It should be a little over $30 and can be ordered through any Leather and Grindery Merchants (Finder in US English ?). I suggest your contact allows two or three weeks because they may have to get a special order from Barnsley. Do get your Brighton contact to give me a ring (call in US English - just teazing) and say Hello. I am on 01706 211181. Or if you have a number, I will gladly call him/her.


Lisa

I would like to pick up your point about shoe/bootmakers having a ‘thing’ about scissors. Speaking personally, I think some of this is snobbery. We like to feel different and skilful. The general public use scissors. We are a bit special because we are generally good at sharpening knives, so there is a tendency to want to use them for cutting everything.

Certainly scissors are a much better tool for cutting upper sewing thread. I also sincerely believe that a clicking knife, like those DW posted, is a better tool for cutting out upper sections. Mainly because we normally cut around card patterns and with the right skills, it is quicker and more accurate to use a knife. Having said that with very thin and flimsy leathers, scissors can be better.

You are absolutely right about having good quality scissors and using them correctly. But that is true for all tools. At the risk of making a sexist comment, I find there is a gender element here. Many more women shoemakers use quality scissors extensively, as compared to the menfolk. Do you find that to be so?

Frank Jones
frank.jones@shoemaking.com

[shoestring]

Has any of you tried the knives by "Don Carlos" he has one with the blade turned up slightly for skiving and one that can be used for cutting or skiving pulling and pushing this one has an angle blade and they hold there edge very well and a good lip knife is a valuable tool.Just my 2cents worth.

[bct]

Frank, I think the Formal Apology is from me to you. I found you post very informative As Always! I was merely adding a little American Humor, such as "Life is a Drag" "What a Drag." A phase from the 70's I think? Once again Communication lies with the sender getting their intended message across. I ready do speak better in person.
"Riding For The Brand"
Brian C. Thomas

[bct]

Gary, Lisa, I started out in a shoe shop with a very good pair of scissors. We had them sharpened monthly. They were use exclusive for trimming Ladies shoe sock lining leathers. It takes a bit of skill to trim this paper thin leather and not leave any points (meaning cutting one continuos smooth line). I must admit I had never seen boot tops drawn with a ball point pen and cut out with scissors until I visited some shops in North Texas. Even when attending Okmulgee I think we all used a knife, if my memory serves me right? I find that cutting tops with a knife, I don't have any points in my cuts and the leather is cut straight up and down all the way through. Try it you might like it!
Brian C. Thomas

[rosynay]

Frank:

Walter and I are still waiting for your visit the same as Tex!

Gary:

Contact me and I will contribute something. I am a whiz bang at making cheese straws and some other things.

Lisa:

I side with you on the use of a good pair of sissors. It is hard to miss with a good pair of sissors.

If you have have sewed commercially you are an expert seamstress. I have been
an expert seamstress myself for almpost 50 years and I went to college to learn something about sewing. Yes, I have sewed on leather and a have a whole lot of miles behind me in cutting all kinds of fabric with sissors. I believe cutting the pattern properly is half the battle in quality construction. I have wondered why sissors are not used more in cutting boot patterns and as far as I am concerned there is nothing which cuts so well as a pair of sharp Gingher sissors or Weiss shears.I think cutting with accuracy must be according to which tool one is accustomed to
using and I feel I can cut with more
accuracy using sissors.

I am finding in bootmaking there are
tools in the sewing box which work
very well if some of you knew of them.
Shown here was a tool for pulling cords through a channel. I have owned such a tool all my sewing life and my mother had such a tool when I was a little girl. These tools have been available for years and years at the sewing store. Lisa I also expect you have an Olfa round cutter also from the sewing
store and is similiar to the round leather cutter,

My two cents worth is if some of you who are in the constrution of boots and shoes who have not done so, it may be worth your while to visit a good quilt shop or other sewing store and look at their tools. Don't leave out visiting a shop which sell upholstery supplies. You can find a lot of useful tools in one of those places like needles, thread, Osborne fabric pullers, hammers
or any Osborne tool you need and more.


Rosemary