The Crispin Colloquy

Jenny,

If you've read any of my comments above, or elsewhere for that matter, I make it up as I go along.

So in this case I'd say, if you trimmed your allowance close to 1/16", as directed, dampened the edge some and rubbed it with a fitters hammer, or iron of some sort, you'd get a pretty smooth seam. I'll be using that same approach in the area of my counters on a couple of pair of zipper boots I'm working on currently. That is, unless we receive better advise from any of the other old hands.

A skant skive first would probably help some too. It depends on the thickness of your uppers.

And, of course, never forget the value of adding to the practice pile.

PK

Paul, right on. Moisten the edge slightly and smooth it down with pressure. I have an nice backseam press, comes in handy but you can do the same with a hammer.
Before I stitch I “break the edge”. Skive no more than 1/3rd the thickness of the flesh side of the leather, lining as well, than I stitch, cut the access with a nice and sharp knife and smooth the seam. Apply some nylon tape over the seam for extra strength.

Rob

Looks kind of like a rolling pin!

What type of nylon tape are you referring to (something you'd buy at a shoe finder?), how wide, and do you leave it in the shoe permanently or just while you are flattening the seam?

Another sewing question. I have already sewn the one pair of quarters together twice, taking the stitching out inbetween. Dare I take the stitching out AGAIN so I can skive the leather, and then sew it a third time, or am I likely to have so many needle holes in the leather the seam will tear?

Does trimming the seam to about 1/16" sound about right? Thanks.

Jenny

Jenny,

The tape is a woven nylon tape, nice and thin so it does not show through the leather, even thin leather but very strong, it's available in different widths. For the back seam ½ inch should be fine. I've had trouble finding it through my regular finder. Don't have the address where I did get it from handy. Let me know if you need it. I believe there is an address for this type of tape posted on the board.

I would not take your sewing apart again. You would run the risk that the leather gets to perforated and will not hold. If there is a mild bump behind your heel it will be on the outside of your shoe so it will cause no functional problems and you can “hide” some of it in the heel counter, the moist leather of the counter will form to the unevenness in the leather.
Trimming the seam is based on what seems right, not what the ruler tells you, with softer leather I leave a little more material cause it will stretch some and I do not want the stitching holes to rip out. The test will be when you last. That's when you get the highest stress on the seam, once the counter is glued to the leather it gives the seam more strength.

Rob

Getting ready to sew the kidskin quarters to the lining (tomorrow). Any suggestions on how to hold the lining quarters to the kidskin quarters while sewing so they don't get out of position during the process?

Jenny

Jenny,
If you don't want to cement them or use adhesive, then you can use tacks.
The ones I use are the little coloured ones that they use in carpet - pink 'cause they were in the second hand shop and plus they're easy to see.

Put your leather over a piece of steel eg the anvil or block of steel as in the picture, or a vise and tap the tack gently through the work a couple of times so that the little point on the end clinches over on the steel. Don't hit it too hard, if you do you'll roll the point of the tack and it'll be hard to remove. You just want to form a little rivet

Always tack on your stitch line and you wont see where the tacks have been. As you sew up to a tack remove it with the side cutters by griping the tack lightly and rolling your hand over so that one edge of the pliers contacts the leather and levers the tack out. Sometimes you lever it against the presser foot of the machine 'cause your so close. Make sure you leave the work onder the presser foot as you leaver the tack out and it'll help hold the work steady.
More power to y'awl.
T.

Tom,

That's a great alternative to rubber cement. I can see myself use that when adhesives are not usable.
I usually rubber cement the lining but do not stick it together "flat" but in the shape of the heel rounding. This way you won't get wrinkles in the lining later on when you start lasting. This is more important with a heavier leathers.

Rob

DW,

I have been working on a pair of boots for my webmistress- a variation on a Tank Boot.

This is the first time I've tried installing a full bellows tongue since before I bought your Packers book a few years ago. Maybe this is common practice, but it was not intuitive for me to sew the tongue to the vamp prior to mounting the quarters.

I started with some skepticism, but I successfully installed all parts of the boots today. That was sooo much easier than what I've tried in the past.

Thank you.

Happy holidays,

Erick

Anyone,

I have a Phaff Double Needle Post Machine. I am trying to sew a gusseted tongue in place. The top thread keeps breaking. I am using a 46 bonded nylon thread. The upper is 7 to 8 oz, with a firm hand and heavy oiled. The lining is 3.5oz cream cow. I sewed the lining and upper together with no problem but when I try and attach the tongue the thread unravels and breaks. Any suggestions how I can fix this problem? Thanks in advance, Joel

Joel
With out being there it is hard to speculate. Asumming it sewed fine on the straight it may be from the difficulty of keeping the work flat while you sew. some questions does it break on a straight stitch or the curve? does it break on the first side or the second? what size needle? I know it is a pain but needle clearence can be adjusted on a double post but not easily. Does it always break on the same needle. Also what is the thickness of the tounge? It sounds like you may be maxed out and possibly getting needle deflection which is most likely to show up on a curve or turn. This is assuming every thing else is fine. I hope I don't send you on a three day snipe hunt.
Tom

Joel, try a bigger needle or even a leather point needle ie this "/" instead of a point like this "."
More power to y'awl
T.
PS another option is that both bottom and top tenshions are so tight that the thread breaks even though it looks OK it is just too tight, back them both off a nats.
T.

(Message edited by Tomo on March 20, 2007)

Tom M.
What do you mean by the word "tounge"?

It sews fine straight or curved on just the upper and lining. It's when I add the third and fourth pieces of leather that the thread breaks. Like the padded collar or gusseted tongue.

I tried turning the needle a little to see if that would help and even replaced the thread but niether worked.

The thread breaks on the 1st needle if I use them together and breaks when I use it alone.

The machine has given me headaches ever since I got it. I think it was setup for thin leather. Say, 2 to 3 ounces.

I think the heavier leather is causing the problem.

Tom S.

The needle is a Groz-Beckert 110/18. I do have 125/20 needles and 130/21 leather point needles, which I will try tomorrow.

My real question is why does it sew through the two layers of leather with no problem but when I add the third or fourth one the thread breaks?

Is it the way the thread is being pulled down throught the hole which is causing it to bind and break? The larger needle would give the thread more room and allow it to travel freely?

Could you explain how lessing the tension would help?

Thanks for all your help, Joel

Joel,
When you sew through thicker leather - or more layers, thers's a greater tendency for heat to be generated and this is exasperated by a needle that is too small.

It's also way easier for the machine to sew leather with a leather point needle than it is with a round point. I know some of the guys use a round point for inlays but a leather point looks much better as it imitates the awl positioning of hand sewing and also it has a slicing action going through the leather as opposed to a piercing one.

Turning the needle is usually a remedy to try and catch missing stitches because you turn the needle in such a way that the loop that forms on the bottom of the needle is presented to the bobbin hook in a better way.

Also too small a needle can also cause missed stitches because the thread doesn't sit in the long groove enough and the drag of the leather stops a big enough loop forming on the end of the needle and so the bobbin hook has nothing to catch.

When I was a boy my dad showed me a way to break even very strong thread by crossing the thread and using the thread to cut itself. this is the same principle that causes the thread to break if both tensions are too tight, something has to give. Now if one thread is not as tight as the other than the thread will pull through to one side and that's what happens when you see the little loop forming in the stitch hole on either the top or bottom.

We keep tightening the top thread and often forget that SOMETIMES the tension on the bobbin case is too tight and then the threads will bust.

More power to y'awl.
T.

Tom,

Thanks!!! That helps a lot. I will change out needles this afternoon and try your ideas. Joel

I changed the needle to a 125/20 with a chisel point. I then tested it on three layers of leather and it worked like a charm. Thanks for all your help, Joel

Joel,

There are literally half a dozen different types of leather needle...the shape of the point is the significant issue. Tom is right that a twist or reverse twist needle will result in a "chained" or ropelike effect in the finished stitching. He is also probably right that sewing thick or stiff leathers is easier with a leather point needle, but only because these types of needles cut rather than pierce the leather.

That said, it is very interesting to look at the effect that various needle points create. Some, like a wedge point will require longer stitches or the stitch line will be weakened. Some, like cross point needles, result in a nice rope effect and short stitches but if the lines of stitching are too close together the seam can be weakened. Twist, reverse twist, spear and reverse spear combine the best of both wedge and cross-point without the drawbacks of either. But depending on the thread you are using, one may result in a stitch that is raised up off the surface higher than another....something that may or may not be desirable.

There are also tri-points, round points, diamond points...etc.. Some of the needle companies produce a pamphlet that describes the various needle point and the result that may be obtained by using them on appropriate materials.

Then too, it should be noted that not all points are available in all sizes.

DWFII
About to go aboard the HMS Surprise...

BTW,

there is a very informative web page at:

http://www.acgnystrom.lt/lt/produktai/siuvimas_sukirpimas/atsargines_dalys/pfaff /pfafff_originalios-atsargines_dalys/5_adatos/desc_5_adatos.pdf

It starts off in German but switiches to English at page five.

It is hard to see the diagrams of stitching that result from various needle points but the text describes the resultant stitching and the suitablitity for each application pretty well. It's worth look.

Maybe when I get back from my ramblin' I'll try to scan and post a better overview of this subject--I think I have some brochures tucked away somewhere.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--member HCC

All,

When you guys do overlays, say a collar on a boot top. Do you skive the edges or do you leave the edges full so the the overlay stands proud?

Thanks,

Mark

Mark,

This is one of my "crusades," so to speak. So take it with a grain of salt.

My theory is that everything should be skived--I skive the tops before I put the bead on; I skive the top edge of the vamp and counter cover; I skive collars and overlays and sometimes if the collar is "pierced" I wil skive the cut-out and put it back in behind the top leather under the collar. Sometimes, I'll even skive (or maybe it would be more properly called "paring" or splitting) the leather behind the collar or overlay so as to augment a feeling of the collar emerging or blending with the surrounding leather.

I don't skive the sideseam edges except very rarely (actually, maybe once or twice in decades).


Tight Stitches
DWFII--member HCC

DW

I skive like crazy. My counters, bootstraps where they are underlayed et. I don't use beads. Thats something new I will try. Old school had the lining and top flush, or the lining top folded to what looks like a bead. Learned my fine skiving as a bookbinder, an art I no longer apply myself to, but one that I integrate in bootmaking, so thats my non-authentic historical own thang. No leather working technique can be overlooked. Somewhwhere you will find a need for it.
jesseLee

Thanks Guys,

It also seems to help to keep from getting that fur looking edge. That really irritates me and it looks terrible.

Thanks,

Mark

Mark,

I'll skive my edges also. And sometimes, when I'm happy with the thickness, or lack thereof, I'll take a lit match along the edge, to burn off the fuzzies. Just be sure to go past points very quickly. They'll curl on ya. I've even used an edge coat acrylic on the back side of a skived edge, to give a clean firm looking layer to an otherwise fiberous edge.

You might even like the look of using your bone to burnish the layers after stitching.

PK

Hey Paul,

Thanks for the tip. I am going to try it. I just hate those fuzzy edges. I did also wonder if some of you burnish the edges of overlays. I like that really clean look and I was wondering what you did to achieve that.

Thanks,

Mark

Hey all,

Just one quick endorsement. I have been speaking with the folks at Texas Leather Trim and they are great folks. They sent me a sample of the standard sidewelt bead that they do. None of them were quite right so they told me that they would makeup side welt beading from any leather that I send them and there is no minimum order.

One question to the experienced. On a boot with a sixteen inch top would 5-6 yards seem reasonable to cover. I think I measured correctly but I am not sure.

Thanks,

Mark

Mark,

Six feet would do for the one pair.

How many pair are you going to make? It sounds like just one. If so, wouldn't you'd save alot of time and trouble to make your own.

Be sure to ask TLT for lead time estimates. I wasn't prepared to wait to so long one time.

Good luck, PK