The Crispin Colloquy

Rob, to get back to your questions, I would rely on luck, and lots of revisions to match the transition from 1/4" to 1/8" areas,...so maybe I'll try the 1/8" the whole length as I'm kind of tired of revising things! The other issue is shock absorption, but if you think 1/8" is thick enough for that, it's worth a try.

I'm a little concerned about stability, in that I have wobbly ankles (if I wear high heels I walk like Jack Lemmon in "Some Like It Hot"!), in spite of the fact that my feet are not super flexible. My lasts are going to have a much narrower heel than any commercially made shoes I've ever had, because my heels are quite narrow, so it will be interesting to see how it all works out...

Jenny

Jenny and Erick

What he was talking about(I think) with the firm/soft bottom is the stiff plantar(bottom of foot) muscles being worked to much if the bottom is too soft. What Erick wrote is correct but not quite what Rob was talking about. If you think about how walking in the sand can make your feet sore because the whole foot is stretched and worked in another extreme than what we are used to with shoes on. A shoe that was very soft(bottom) could easily make your foot more sore. What Jenny has desribed as her problem would be worsened by this. Part of the heel spur pain can! come from the stiff/short plantar muscle

About the shank, that is a must. even a wedge heel needs one to avoid the bottom rounding with use. What we both were thinking about was a soft wedge under the heel. That could be bad for you. A traditional heel in a soft material could be even worse.

Rob
It's good to see you back on the sight, I hope you slept well.

CW

Chris, when you say "a soft wedge under the heel" would be bad, are you refering to the material the sole of the shoe would be made of, or the molded insole? If the former, is a stacked leather heel OK?

Jenny

Jenny

Sorry for the confusion. A soft(firmness) wedge (part of the sole) COULD be bad, if it was too soft and worse in the form of a normal heel. That depends again on factors like your wieght. I am pushing 100 kg and would destroy a soft(appr. firmness) wedge. I have done it again and again when I ran to keep in shape for fights. Then there is how you walk. I am an elefant

Overhere we use soft (type of material) alot in orth. shoes. It's the stuff you find in running shoes. I comes in a large range of hardnesses/firmness for lack of words. There are alot of colors to. You can get it rock hard but it will still soften when hot making it easy to mold to the bottom of a shoe and the hard stuff is still some what light in wieght.

The orthotic or insert for the shoe is something else completely. As I wrote earlier, let Rob continue helping with this because too many bosses will confuse the soldiers and he has been doing it longer than I have.


My cake calls
CW

I have a vague understanding of what Littleway construction is. If you are making a cement-down shoe, and want to do Littleway stitching, can you take the shoe off the last and do the Littleway stitching by hand? Then put the last back in the shoe to do the soling?

Is Littleway the way to go if you don't want to use a welt, but want to be able to resole the shoe at some point, without it falling apart when you remove the original sole?

Jenny

Jenny Fleishman

You ask is the Littleway construction the way to go if you want a repairable shoe but not welted. At least that is what I think you asked.

I would suggest you stick to a straightforward cement-lasted construction. See diagram.


Modern adhesives have made cemented shoes perfectly serviceable for even hard wear. I have not followed this thread in great detail but if you are looking at a ladies “pump” shoe, a cement construction with the rear section of the insole stiffened to provide adequate support for a high heel would be perfectly OK.

Frank Jones
frank.jones@shoemaking.com

OK,

Now I'd like to ask Whatzit & Howzit, Littleway construction?

It's new term for me.

PK

Frank,

I am concerned about using heat to peel off the outsole also releasing the cemented bond between the upper lasting margin and the insole at the same time. Is this not a concern?

I will be making low-heeled shoes...about 1/2 inch high, but just out of curiousity, what material would you use on on a ladies' pump to stiffen the rear section of the insole? Thanks!

Paul, I'll leave it to someone else to explain Littleway construction in detail. My understanding is that it is running a line of stitching around the edge of the insole (maybe 1/4" in from the outer edge???), going through the insole and the lasting margin of the upper.

Jenny

While I would not disagree with's Frank's comments nor even his recommendation that a cement sole construction is a good option for the purpose, I feel compelled to offer up another perspective:

To say that "Modern adhesives have made cemented shoes perfectly serviceable for even hard wear" is, at best, a little like saying that a glue and brad construction on a wood joint is equivalent to a dovetailed joint. Or that epoxy and steel stringers are adequate to hold multi-ton slabs of concrete off the heads of motorists in Boston tunnels.

For me...and this is my opinion only...it is a poor solution for a problem that cries out for a structural approach rather than one that is incidental. Here's my thinking and some of my experiences:

First, cement sole construction tends to be limited to women's shoes...I guess on the assumption is that women are so fickle the sole will never be replaced, anyway. And add to that, a good percentage of women's shoes are made of kidskin (which is a fragile leather at best) in the latest fashion colours. Again, fashions change so quickly and colours go out of style so quickly that the shoes will never be re-soled, so it doesn't matter if it is a good method or not. You seldom see "manly" footwear made with a cement construction.

Second, from my own experiences making boots and shoes...in the absence of a press, cement sole construction can vary wildly in strength of adhesion and durability. And a sole that is not firmly and tightly adhered all the way around is worse than none at all, in my opinion.

Third, from my experiences repairing shoes and boots for twenty some years....cement sole construction is always a crap shoot to repair. If the shoes are kidskin (as mentioned above) the chances of ripping a portion of the lasting margin off with the old worn-out sole is extremely high. This is especially true with commercially made shoes where the lasting margin may be extremely thin from having been leveled and prepared (grain scuffed) by machine. And since most pumps and cement soles are trimmed close to the vamp, there is a further chance that the trimmer shield (or even the trimmer blade itself) will have damaged the vamp...thus increasing the probability of losing the shoe altogether on a re-sole job.

I cite these problems as much to provide a set of markers of what to avoid doing if a cement sole is wanted, as to express my distaste for the whole concept. I am not a big fan of expediency even in the service of fashion.

That said, if good quality leathers are used, and care is taken, due diligence applied (sometimes as much or more than is required for a welted shoe), cement sole construction can probably provide as much service as any other method, if only for a limited number of resoles. And cement sole construction is a sleeker, trimmer...different...look. One that many people like.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

Paul Krause

Jenny described perfectly adequately what is commonly called in the USA - the Littleway Construction. The traditional name that is still used by really old shoemakers like me, is Machine Sewn.

The machine used to do the sewing was the chain stitch McKay machine. A really massive beast of a machine with the horn which goes inside the shoe and turns to enable stitching around the toe.

The term Littleway used now usually refers to the modern lockstitch version of the McKay. Perhaps the first lockstitch model of the this type made in the USA was called Littleway, but I am guessing.

Frank Jones
frank.jones@shoemaking.com

What about the issue of the heat used to release the sole also releasing the upper's lasting margin from the insole? Thanks.

Jenny

Jenny Fleishman

You raise two points.

1. What material would I use on a ladies' pump to stiffen the rear section of the insole?

On the shoes you describe with a heel only about 1/2 inch high, I would not bother. The leather insoles discussed before would be perfectly adequate. If you are thinking of a pump with say a two-inch heel, the insole needs two extra elements. A carbon steel shank and a stiffening material to reinforce the leather from just behind the metarsal heads covering all the back section of the insole. This could be an extra layer of leather but to make it sufficiently stiff, would mean it would have to be very thick. This would add too much weight to the shoe.

I would use backerboard which is made specifically for this purpose and is used in mass-produced shoes. It is made from wood-fibre but is very heavily compressed and a layer say 1 to 1.5mm thick is very stiff indeed. It needs to be molded to conform to the curvature of your last. This is usually done by the suppliers using specialist machinery. I do not know if you can buy small quantities in the USA.

2. You are concerned about using heat to peel off the outsole also releasing the cemented bond between the upper lasting margin and the insole at the same time.

The answer is not to get the sole too hot and to peel the sole away carefully. If the lasting margin does come away in one or two places, it can easily be re-stuck again before the new sole is attached. Shoes that have been worn enough to need re-soling have taken up much of the shape of the wearer’s foot and you can replace the lasting margin accurately without the shoe loosing its look or shape, even if you do not have the original last. As long as you do not over-heat I do not see any problem.

Frank Jones
frank.jones@shoemaking.com

Jenny

Alot of shoes are Littleway or McKay stitched. It is a standard way of making some expensive sailor/deck shoes over here. I have also seen some well made shoes(eastern european) that have a thin sole sewn on by the same method and then an outsole. No welt! They hold up to alot of abuse. There are many of the military boots here in Dk that have the sole/bottom replaced this way and hold for many a bottom(vibram).

About the cement, it should not be a problem doing repairs if the person doing it knows how to do it. The finisher/grinder can really eat a shoe and it can do some very fine things. An easy way to do it if you are afrain of the hole shoe lossening from heat is to grind the bottom edge of the sole down to a thin (1 mm) layer. Then a little bit of heat and slowly pull the sole off. Some times the cork filler or felt or ppt has to be added to before the new bottom is put on. I have put a new sole on many a shoe that fell apart in the uppers before we said stop. Sewn shoes last longer if they are treated right, but a cemented shoe can easly last many yrs.

The easy way to explain it is if the edge of the sole is thin then it is weak and not stronger than the rest of the shoe.

Using heat is just like the grinder. you have to learn how to use it. There are also chemicals that loosen the sole. Mind you, you need to talk to someone about them before use. They work their way straight into your body.


I hope this helps
CW

I thought you could see some of what Frank was talking about.
left to right
1 a basic shank cover in leather before shived
2 roughly shived
3 shank -Soft
4 reinforced type
5 medium stiffness

You can also get some like Frank is talking about. It should be possible to buy a shank cover with a shank on it. We use them on some shoes when there is a wedge heel. they come in some hard versions and some softer versions. The hard ones are a dark color.

some british shoes do not have shank covers, stay away from this idea.


pegged shank and heel area makes the shank stiffer


CW

Chris, I finally have some understanding of welting, but I know nothing about pegging a shank or heel...I'm guessing the holes in the shank have something to do with it!

Speaking of shanks, I used what I believe (from your photo) is a reinforced shank in my fitter shoe (ridge down the middle of it). I pounded the heck out of it to change the curve to match my last bottom...put it on a 2 X 4 board and went at it with a regular hammer. I got it pretty close to what I wanted--just hope my downstairs neighbor doesn't try to get me evicted

The reinforced shanks are the only ones my local shoe finder has, and they are maybe a little longer than ideal for my size shoes. I see that Atlas Ortho sells 3 different sizes of shanks, but I am under the impression they only sell to commercial customers. (I've found not having a business license is a hindrance for purchasing some supplies.) If anyone knows of a Web site where a non-pro can order various shanks, please post. Thanks!

Jenny

Jenny

Most standard shoes have the reinforced shank which has a ridge down the middel. You can just break one to length. Put it in a vise and bend both ways ( 1 time in each direction should be enough). If you are strong enough two pliers work just fine.

I am still looking for what I like to use as an anvil. It's an antik iron for clothing. The type you put on the oven top until it is hot. Once you find one for a good price! Break the handle off and use dip in the middel to bend the shank. A pcs of natural rubber under the iron takes the shock of the hammer hitting the iron. I learned to do it that way to avoid standing up and because shoemakers here traditionally don't have much room to work. Other wise open the vise to the appr. distance and hit the shank to shape it.

The shank cover needs to be cut to length and shape .
The process of putting them on is different depending on factors like:
Welt?
Type sole?
Type heel?
The tools you have to work with?
the type combo. of shank and cover.

If you look at the pegged shoe the shank cover is the width of the sole between the lines on the sole.


I'll get back to you, I need to go to the train st.
CW

I know that there are different traditions in this business...different schools of thought, different ways of doing things...and they all more or less end up in the same place.

That said, in over 35 years of building and looking at contemporary footwear as well as studying and collecting historic footwear, I have never seen a shoe...women's or men's, at any heel height that needed a shank cover when it already had a steel shank.

In no way does that make my observations universal, but I would like someone to explain to me how a leather or even fiberboard shank cover/cottage can add any additional stiffness to the shoe...or more specifically the insole when there is a properly installed steel shank already present.

What can a leather or fiberboard shank cover add to the rigidity of a steel shank? What can it add to the rigidity of an insole especially if it sits on top of the steel shank?

In the specific, and narrow, arena of western bootmaking--one of the few (if not only)types of footwear to incorporate a shank cover "in the specs," so to speak--and as a lifetime maker of the same, I can say with some assurance that even at heel heights as high as 2", the shank cover's only purpose is to add shape to the sole. It may function as a filler in some circumstances (depending on the type of shank used) but boots can, and have been made without any shank cover at all and be perfectly functional.

And if the history, and the examples I have (in my collection) and have handled, are to be believed, even women's pumps up to a 3" heel height can be made without a shank cover...or any kind of additional stiffening agent other thatn the shank itself.

So I am obviously missing something here...perhaps a shank cover, or some sort of reinforcing, is needed when a cement sole construction is wanted?

I don't mean to be quarrelsome, but I don't see it. Again, I would appreciate a clarification if possible.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

DW

If you have seen shoes using the wide plastic shank that I have seen on some websites over there, then I understand why you wrote what you did.

The shoes, usually british shoes, that don't have it need one. I have seen too many that have a sole that starts to fall downward RIGHT after the heel. These are the ones that have a shank and a filler that looks like a thick cork paste. These are the ones that can be sent back to the factory for a complete resoling. They need it!

Ecco has a wide plastic plate and a pu-plastic bottom rather than a shankcover -shank combo. I have cut into many of these to add to the hieght or varus or other adjustment. There are some high heeled shoes that have carbon fiber plates to. Alot of safety shoes use carbon fiber in varius parts now.

Her in DK the handmade/custom shoes shoes, which more or less counts every orth. maker in the country use some kind of shank cover. The shoes that have felt are much weaker and are made that way because the shoemaker has to save money to win the orth. contract for the county or city! More and more use the combo shank and shank cover that are riveted together because of the same reason. A person is allowed so many prs every yr and half. The shoemaker makes more money if he makes them to last 2 yrs. All apprentices are taught to use the leather cover and many quality based methods.

http://www.sl-online.dk/default.asp?Action=Details&Item=2446
http://www.sl-online.dk/default.asp?Action=Details&Item=2427


If you had some of the shoes that have shank covers in them in your hand you would understand why it has been the norm here for many many years. A cemented and pegged shoe can last ten yrs.

The combo of a ca. 2.5 mm insole a shank and cover make a strong flexible shoe.

Some are taught to use the flesh side up and others down. Some are taught to beat the cover on with the large end of the hammer and others are taught to use the narrow end to beat it so that the leather becomes harder and fills every possible crevis. The leather covers I showed are a hard! sole leather that are 4-5 mm thick.

The man that was my masters teacher made shoes all his life before he tired. His master did the same. We are going back atleast 100 yrs here. John (retired) has made shoes for many in the royal family. One of the old masters of the shop got mad at the royalty and stopped making shoes for them.

Believe what you want.

I will give you this I have not seen that many shoes from the states over here.

It works for me and all of DK and many other makers. The British are most likely the root of your knowledge and the base you have learned apon.

BTW it has nothing to do -just cemented shoes-

Ther is a museum here in Copenhagen filled with all sorts of shoes and boots along with tools and methods through the centuries. Maybe you take a trip there one day

CW

DW

I was going back to my wifes lace-ups, but I thought of something that is more and more common here.

Some shoe makers cut the insole, put the shank on and then add the cover to make it even stronger. The problem with this method is the pinned part of the upper is not sandwitched between other layers (and protected). I have used the method to lower the heel on my boots last when I made some shoes on them for kicks. I didn't shive the edge. They are really stiff in the heel to shank area and still very flexible in the front

It is a good way to build up an insole and avoid a cork orthotic.

Work calls
CW

Chris, I am very interested, but lost trying to figure out your last post, due mainly to my inexperience, I am sure!

I can't figure out what you mean by this:
"The problem with this method is the pinned part of the upper is not sandwitched between other layers"

Can you post drawings or diagrams of the different methods to clarify ?

Jenny

I spent some time with a 'maker' who works for a number of the west-end London firms that do bespoke shoes; they/he doesn't use a metal shank at all, just a hard leather shank (from veg tanned, perhaps soling, leather), similar to the leather shank 'covers' shown by you, Chris. Of course, his shoes are on heels of only 3/4" to 1 1/4", so perhaps a metal or other stiffer shank material is not necessary. Also, of course, his shoes are welted from heel to heel, rather than pegged.

Would love to get comments on this approach. Would Jenny need to use a metal shank, or could a good, stiff leather shank suffice?

Hi DW,
I had a pair of boots with a steel shank similar to the one second from the right in CW's pic above, and it rusted and then busted. Well actually it stuffed the sole and poked through before finally breaking.

Would covering the shank in leather stop this or slow it down?

Although I would imagine the 'nails' that you guys use wouldn't break anyway.
Oh! and the filler used was that granulated cork in an adhesive base.

More power to y'awl
T.

PS. Another thought. On those lasts I bought from Carrlyn and Lee Miller, the sole on the last is flat, and I think it was Lee who mentioned (forgive me if I've misquoted here) this was typical of riding boots. The heel height is 1", so where does the shank go, and what type of shank is normally used then?
T.

(Message edited by Tomo on July 22, 2006)

DW and Tom

I have to pack the car so I'll be quick

The cover is used on all shoes, also those sewn Medial Met. to heel -heel to heel- met to met-and completely sewn.

What Tom wrote is one advantage. When the heel is too hight the the shank will work it's way through the sole if there is no cover.


The fact that the cover normally is rounded adds strenght to the shoe alone because it causes the sole to round. This makes it stronger. Take a pc of soft sole leather and bow it. It is stronger

A lot of the british shoes(sewn heel to heel) over here need a new bottom because of the for mentioned. You can't just put a new sole in front. That might be why they like to have a midsole to strengthen the whole structor.

I was tought that the press- board cover rivited to the shank were not that good. My experience as a cobbler made it easy to understand that. They break and talk to you when you walk. It sounds like a mouse in your shoe. I have seen high heeled shoes with a shank hole just behind the met line. the shank is not that strong either. They can break dead center.

About the sandwitch affect. On a sewn shoe or boot the shank cover is cut to cover as much of the gemmin or the sewn part of the insole. You can not cover the stitches with the cover but the
edge can get close to it. On a riding boot ( normally)sewn heel to heel) the cover fits between the gemmen after it is trimmed and beaten down. On a traditional insole the rand doesn't stick down as much, leaving more room(appr. 1" riding boot) BTW we measue the heel on the lat. side under the maliol. The heel is not 1" dead center of the heel.

With a cemment construction without a cement rand/welt the cover normally covers part of the pinned upper. Which protects it when putting a new sole on (from toe to heel). With a cemented welt/rand the cover is put on last to cover parts of the welt.

If i wanted to replace a vibram sole on a military boot. I would warm the sole with an infra-red lamp. Put it on a a stand and pull it off with some plyers. We can say that it doesn't have a midsole for kicks. I might pull the upper loose. Then I have to use time on cementing back in place. It's not protected by the sandwitch effect.

We made shoes for alot of people. Some might and do take the shoes to a repairmen on the local corner. He doesn't care and just baught the store 3-6 months ago without having learned cobbler skills. The shoe lasts longer because he can grind through the sole in the shank area . The cover protects the upper. to a certain degree. I have seen a machine to cut the sole where the new half sole starts but we don't have them here.

Just to round off with the person that needs to understand this is if Jenny makes some high heel shoes and they have the american and factory approach to the heel and upper. The heel doen't lay flat on the ground. It is free in the the back. It is not stiff enough. What can happen? The bottom of the shoe opens and the heel tilts backwards which stretches her foot on the bottom( this is bad for her) After a while the heel keeps moving backwards and the shoe weakens more and her foot is stretched more.

Just lookin at shoe structor alone the shoe will "break" in the middel. That is why cobblers put so many heels on Ladies shoes. They are not made to take the stress of opening for a long time. The factories want to sell more shoes.

The idea of using the heel to tighten the upper is not bad when used in the right situation, But it is purely crazy in others. Heel material, heel hieght, shank strength. all have to fit together. The sailor or deck shoes are good example because they are low and they doen't need to be stiff in the shank area.

This got away from me.

CW

Phew! Well, I am "Dazed and Confused"--even though I never saw that movie! Still don't understand the sandwiching business, and don't know what a rand is, and etc, etc,... Perhaps I'll just post pictures as I make my first pair of shoes and have you guys tell me what I'm doing wrong and right as I go along...(I do realize the posts aren't personally meant for me, and others do understand them, but if anyone wants to post some remedial explanations, I won't complain ...although I do admit, they look good!

DW

Nobody else has picked up your query, so I thought perhaps I should try.

As you know I have no experience whatsoever of working with western boots or similar footwear. As a result I defer to those who do, such as yourself. My comments here are about the need for stiffening of the back section of an insole when fitted in women’s pumps with heels. In particular, heels two inches (50mm) and higher on fashion shoes.

Almost all such shoes are made using the cement lasted construction. Interestingly there are very few shoes of this type made by hand-shoemakers, either bespoke or simply small scale production. I have only ever been in contact with two people who do this. Both used insoles that are widely used in factory shoemaking.

The only factory-made high heel pumps I have ever seen with leather insoles were from Ferragamo and Jimmy Choo but there are probably other brands that do as well. In both of these cases, the back section of the insole was stiffened with backerboard.

Enough background.

Women’s shoes fitted with high heels often have a heel with a very narrow cross-section at the toplift (toppiece) end, sometimes less than half an inch (12mm) across. When walking on such a small toplift there are a number of different stresses on the insole. A carbon steel shank takes good care of the fore and aft stress that is produced when the toplift is pushed backwards and forwards in normal walking and even more so when running. Yes, women do run short distances in high heels when it is they want to catch a taxi or get to a closing elevator door.

The other main stress is a lack of sideways support provided by such a small toplift area. In simple terms unless the back section of the insole is very stiff, the heel will feel wobbly when walked on. On mass-produced women’s high heeled pumps the backerboard reinforcement also carries out one other important role. It provides anchorage for the heads of the heel attaching nails and stops them pulling through the insole in wear.

Some support for sideways movement is provided by the heel stiffener Backless high heeled pumps (mules) always have insoles with the rear section between 50% and 75% thicker to compensate for the lack of stiffener.

I am in no way advocating the widespread use of factory technology or materials by hand shoe/bootmakers. However, I do feel very strongly that factory shoemakers could learn a great deal by being aware of the methods, materials and technology used by hand shoe/bootmakers. I am just as sure that shoe/bootmakers who ignore what factories do, can miss an idea or method which could prove useful, just once in a while.

Frank Jones
frank.jones@shoemaking.com