One "Last" Question

[btippit]

Erick,

I had to delay my "photo shoot" at JV for a day but here are 3 pictures of one of their vices, which pretty much relates to the diagram Marc posted. There is also another method for holding models/lasts when working on them. It is basically a box with the top concave so the last will lay in it. The top is padded so as not to scar the last and it is held in place by a leather strap that you put pressure on with your foot. I've never particularly like this method which is probably why I forgot all about it while I was at JV. I'll get a picture of one and post it next week. In my travels around the world, the only last makers I've encountered who use the vice are Americans or ones who were trained by Americans. Everyone else uses a various of the "box and strap". One last company in Italy doesn't even use the strap. The model makers hold the last on the box with one hand and file away with the rasp with the other. Here's a tip....don't arm wrestle with one of these guys.

OK. Here's the first picture. I'll do them one at a time.

3306.jpg

Bill

[btippit]

OK, my wife is the photo expert and she's going to show me how to make this much more viewable. Sorry.

[btippit]

Vice-1....take 2.

3308.jpg

[btippit]

AIN'T SHE GREAT!!!!

3310.jpg

[btippit]

and finally....

3312.jpg

[erickgeer]

Bill,
Thank you, after seeing yours and JP's pictures, it is the same beast as a blacksmiths post vise. Most of the one's I ran accross in my searches were either small versions or lacking any scale/measurements.

I thought this was another case of same-name, diferent tool, that I see a lot of.

Thank you much!

Erick

[das]

Bill,

Nice photos Mrs. Tippit! The lastmaker at John Lobb's, London uses a similar stand-up vice, and I think Tebbutt shows one in his book on English lastmaking. The "box and strap" you describe rig puts me to mind of just the way I do most last-work: I work seated, strap the last to my left thigh, like a shoe, with the stirrup, leaving both hands free to rasp. You can move, tilt, or angle the last just about any old way, and a stirrup and your thigh are easier come by that the fancy vise

[btippit]

Al,

Yeah, she's a keeper! The picture I'll get of the "box and strap" at JV will be a little different. In Europe they use a box which sometimes is overed with a thick rubber top that has holes throughout and the bottom of the box is attached to a vacumn system to remove the sawdust. All we ever used at JV when I was there was a contraption that looked sort of like a boot mounted upside down on a bench with the "shaft" attached to the bench. The last was placed on what would have been the "sole" of the boot which was actually just a sort of canoe shaped frame padded with leather and hollowed out in the center. Then, like you say, you could angle the last any way you wanted and secure it with the strap. Despite the fact that sitting down was probably more productive, these were always mounted so that you had to stand up and work. I guess from a management standpoint, standing looked more productive. I don't actually remember seeing one when I was there yesterday but I'm sure they've got one somewhere. It would be a lot easier to make than the vice.

Bill

[btippit]

Erick,

My buddies at JV sent me these 2 pictures of the other type of last "vice" I was talking about. As you can see from the images, this would be much easier to make.

First the "bed" that the last sits in:

3336.jpg

[btippit]

OK, I grabbed the wrong one. That's what happens when I try to deal with pictures when my wife's not home. The previous shot shows the entire jack....nothing more than a padded "bed" to hold the last, and a leather strap attached to a wooden pedal that's anchored to the floor.

Now HERE is the closeup of the "bed".

3338.jpg

Let me know if you have any questions.

Bill

[plugnickle]

Bill,
Do you have any idea what type of padding is under the duct tape?

Steve

[btippit]

Steve,

It's just a wooden frame padded with leather. Frankly, I've never seen duct tape on one before but it is the substance that holds the whole planet together so, why not?

Bill

[btippit]

Oh, and the thick felt pad at the other end...a key ingredient.

Bill

[plugnickle]

A person can go far with a roll of duct tape and a tube of super glue.
Thanks,
Steve

[jake]

Gang,

While we're talking about Jones & Vining, thought you might want to know that the "Custom Last Division" has a new rep. His name is Allen Smith. April Allison is gone now. You can reach Mr. Smith @ 1.800.341.2266. He seems very eager to help in any way he can.

Just for the record, I received extremely fine service from April. I wish her the very best!

[erickgeer]

Bill,
Thanks for the pictures of the last bed. Makes sense.

I've been hanging around the wood shop at my school, talking to the other instructors and shop managers. One of them suggested a versa-vice, it mounts to the top of a bench, and the jaws-assembly can be attached so they are laying on top of the bench, the work can then be suported by the table while being held in the jaws. Seems like an interesting solution.

Erick

[btippit]

Erick,

I don't remember where but I think I've seen a vice like the one you describe. As long as you pad the jaws I suppose anything would work but the more ability you have to position the last at different angles so that your file/sandpaper is free to go the distance and direction you need, the better off you'll be. Having the last supported by the table might make for some difficult filing angles as well as causing you to bend over a lot, which my lower back would object loudly to.

Bill

[dw]

Lisa,

I confess to being a bit jealous of your Gilman...not that I'd have room for it in my shop. But just to offer up some food for thought I'd caution you about thinking that the last cutting lathe will make a significant difference in how well you fit up a customer.

Knowing what I know (or think I know... ) I'd be reluctant to enter into lastmaking without a solid background in fitting. And while it's true that very few of the commercial lastmakers themselves have any in-depth understanding about the intricacies of fitting an individual foot, for the most part, they are all cutting lasts to standard sizes and from already standardized templates/prototypes. They don't need to understand the foot like the bespoke shoemaker does. But Jim Bowman was a pretty good lastmaker if only because he was also a solid shoemaker.

And having said all that...I would pass on a little piece of accidental wisdom that I was offered many years ago: A lastmaker told me (in the midst of a disagreement I was having with him) that a good bootmaker/shoemaker ought to be able to take virtually any size last and make it fit virtually any size foot. Naturally, there must be limits--it's hard to imagine making a size 3 last fit a size 10 foot--but within the bounds of reason it was one of the most valuable lessons I ever learned.

It is a very intricate and complex business designing or making models of lasts. Probably as involved and demanding as bootmaking itself. I wish you all the best of luck getting going with this.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[relferink]

DW,

Would you care to expand on what you learned from the statement:

a good bootmaker/shoemaker ought to be able to take virtually any size last and make it fit virtually any size foot.

Do you mean to modify the last by adding or taking away from the last?
I agree that a boot/shoemaker should know what kind of last “tweaking” can improve the fit for a specific foot type but it would be nice to start with a last that has a basic fit to the customers foot. Why else would the last maker make all the half sizes and widths they do?
In a distant past I have ventured to take a chunk of fire wood and cave a last out of it. A very educational experience but not one I would like to undertake for every pair of lasts I make.

The question: other than modifying the last by adding or subtracting is there other advice you have and may want to share with the forum?

Thanks Rob

[dw]

Robert,

I think the heart of the matter is simply that a good shoemaker ought to have a deep enough understanding of the foot, and the last, and their relationship to each other that almost anything is possible. For instance, I do not run half sizes and never have. My teacher didn't use half sizes, either and I regard it as an unnecessary expense--and as a sidebar, one that very often contributes to the discouragement of beginners, as well. Over a lifetime of making boots it has never hampered me, although if I need a last for a specific customer and he is very definitely a half size, I will order a half size. .

What's more I do not always have a 10AAAA (as an example) on hand in a given heel height for a given customer. But I have taken a 7A and built it up to a 10AAAA very successfully.

But take a less extreme example...many of the customers that we get as bespoke bootmakers have feet that do not conform to the standard shape and size. One of the most common feet we see is the narrow heel/wide forepart foot. A great many bootmakers simply ignore this problem and fit the front of the foot. But if you have a foot that specs out as a B heel and an EEE forepart this is not a good approach, in my opinion. It distorts the patterns and the way that they lay on the last and it creates fit and foot problems. So what do to do? I start with the B heel last and build the forepart up to EEE---this is a substantial build-up, believe me...and it requires some understanding of the shape of the last and the shape of the foot and how the foot will fill the cavity created by the last. Do you follow?

I seldom cut a last but sometimes you are simply forced to do so...and if it is on a last that will be dedicated to that particular customer and not re-used, this can be a very good solution. But again it requires some understanding of the last and the way patterns fit on the last as well as the way the foot utilizes the space inside the boot.

As for advice...I try to teach my students to...first, be very careful and deliberate about measurements. Second, be very careful and deliberate about choosing a model of last and then choosing the initial size for the customer. Then...study the last. Study it, and study it, and memorize each curve, and each "vector" created by those curves. Study the relationship of each topographical feature to the other--ie. how high is the cone in relation to the overall size of the last? There is a definite limit to how much of a build-up you can place on top of the cone before you start distorting the patterns and the way in which they settle over the cone of the last--with all the attendant complications that serves up. The list is almost endless. After 30 years of making boots I still find myself taking note of relationships that I had previously missed or ignored.


Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[dw]

Rob,

PS...in case it was not clear...I make it a rule to always, always start with a last that is as clsoe to the actual foot measurement and shape as I can possibly muster.

I'm not trying to make exreme modifications.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[shoestring]

Question,
How is it determined if a heel is a B,C, or what ever the size.
Ed

[relferink]

DW,

Your answer is very clear, thank you. From your original post I did not understand that you will actually work to modify the last. It is my understanding that a good number of makers out there take a last the way it is and use it. Needless to say, if you opt not to make adjustments to the last the sizing of the stock last becomes a lot more critical. In my opinion adjusting the last requires less knowledge of fit and shoe-foot interaction than trying to match up a foot shape with a last. Like you said DW,

it requires some understanding of the shape of the last and the shape of the foot and how the foot will fill the cavity created by the last

How do you build up your lasts with leather or do you use a synthetic compound that you can grind into shape? If you work with leather how do you ensure a good hold on plastic lasts without using nails (they do a job on knifes and if there is a nail in the last my knife will find it)

Most of my last stock I don’t buy in half sizes either. The reason is twofold. Firs of all they are just not available. The mostly orthopedic lasts that I use are sized European, therefore one size difference European is less than one size difference US. Secondly the last I buy are very rough cut and they need to be finished to the customers sizes. What size I end up with is the customers, not a number so I would not even know if I am closer to full or half sizes when done.

The advice to study the lasts is excellent and I can do nothing but agree. The funny thing is that what works for one customer does not always work for another, the better your insight in the last and foot/shoe interaction the less problems you will run into. A good way to learn is to make yourself a pair of lasts and keep adjusting them. You can actually feel what it is you are doing.

DW you mentioned that you keep in mind how the pattern lays on the last and what kind of forces you run into when you make it. Do you ever, mostly for cosmetic reasons make a boot by pulling the lining over the last, build up the shape in top of the lining and than pull the upper over the lining so that you sandwich a modeling layer in the boot. I’ve done it in shoes for customers with partial amputations or if there is a need for a reinforced ankle in stead of an AFO (ankle foot orthosis) Not sure if it is ever done in boots.


Ed,

Great question, wish I could tell you the official answer but I can’t. All I can say that over time you develop an eye for it and just call it. Obviously this is not how it is done in last factories and I would also like you love to know what the official way is. There is such a thing as the American Standard Last Sizing Schedule. I’ve spend some time looking for it but without success. This schedule should list the widths with their respective measurements. Nobody I’ve spoken to seems to have it or know where to find it.

[dw]

Rob, Ed,

Good point about building a last for yourself. I have a pair that I have used for myself for many years and I keep tweaking it almost every time I make a pair of boots. Funny thing is, I've never been satisfied with the fit that has resulted. I am pretty sure that it's just a syndrome that's peculiar to boot/shoemakers. I mean, when I put on a brand new pair of boots, I am so focused on what my feet are feeling that I could walk into a tree and not really notice.

I do use leather to build up the last. I scratch up the last--they're plastic--pretty good and use all purpose. I don't worry about the build up coming loose anywhere but along the featherline. There I will put in tiny nails--blued toplift attaching nails or something like that--at about one inch intervals....but only after the build-up has reached its final shape.

One issue that may be important--I don't have enough experience with shoes to say for sure--is the fact that boots and shoes seem to require very different approaches with regard to fit. I am scanning in another volume of Golding, as you may know, and one of the things he talks about is an additional fitting placed on the last where a tabbed facing is part of the design...such as in the "Derby" style. This fitting goes on the last, over the joint, where the tabs will be, to make the last a bit bigger than the foot actually measures. This is to ensure that the tabs (each of which may consist of up to six layers of leather) do not press down on the foot during the flexing of the shoe. That, and numerous other references, seems to suggest that the fit for a shoe is not quite...I emphasize "not quite"--meaning maybe only a trivial amount...as critical as it is with a boot. I don't want any slack inside the boot...period.If only because there are no laces to tighten the boot onto the foot and thus it is entirely the fit that holds the boot on... and just as importantly, in place.

As for determining the heel....first, I take a pedographic imprint of the foot. This is an ink imprint that is very like a fingerprint but of course the customer is wearing a sock while the imprint is taken. The width of the imprint at the heel determines the width of the last in the heel area. It's a little more complicated than that but not much, really. Consider this... the imprint, taken weight on, indicates where the foot is touching the ground and it also indicates the extent to which the foot will spread. The insole is, inarguably, intended as a pretty accurate base for the foot and really, there is no need nor any good reason for the insole to be bigger or even smaller (although you have to be careful here) than the footprint itself. What determines the size and shape of the insole? The bottom of the last. So, if the width of the last in the heel area...between the featherlines...is say, an inch and a half, and the footprint in the heel area is inch and a half, you can bet it's a pretty good match.

So...I start fitting all customers by choosing a last that matches the heel of the foot. Then, and only then, I start looking at the forepart of both the foot and the last.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[admin]

All,

I have moved the discussion on choosing and fitting up lasts over here.

Emmett