Hand Wax / Coad

[gotgrit]

One more comment from a person whom I hold great respect for:

Yes, I have used bee's wax to soften pitch, and it worked fine. I have also used castor oil (NOT linseed oil), and it worked fine... but one drop is all it takes! (You can drink the rest of the bottle if you want to experience being a self-propelled rocket). I have tried turpentine, and it did NOT work for me. I speak from personal experience, not from what I read in books. If I do not have personal experience, I always say so. The scripture-believers do not
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Now is the time for your experts to figure it out

Again I will say that I'm talking softening Gugolz pitch all alone. Your mix already uses bees wax which was *one* method of softening pitch...

tom

[das]

Tom,

In defense of the "scripture-believers", the past 400 years, or so, of texts that mention making shoemakers' wax list "oil" (not specified) and "tallow" to soften this wax, and I only stumbled upon beeswax as an experiment, reinventing the wheel as we all love to do. Oils and tallow are fugitive, and leech out if the wax if stored for a long time, so it goes brittle over time, they also can ruin the wax if to much is used--beeswax is much more forgiving IMO

The "scriptures" are merely a place to start--the accumulated wisdom of the ages one might say--but the ultimate authority is whatever works for you, just like religion. "Fundamentalism" in shoemaking can be just as dangerous as "fundamentalism" in religion. We ought not be bound by it, but it's kind of foolish to ignore it completely. That would make us "savage" wild children, abandoned all alone in the jungle, raised by wolves, with no one to point out the poisonous berries, or safe drinking water, or teach us how to eat with a knife and fork.

[gotgrit]

OMG - NO

That quote was *not* referring to any shoemakers!

It was referring to some of the Telescope Makers on the list.

So sorry that was misunderstood.

[das]

Tom,

So sorry, I misread that posting. My bad. I had gotten my reply bass-ackwards anyhoo: "Fundamentalism" is dangerous, for sure, but my point was really trying to say that a total rejection of anything/everything that passes for received orthodoxy (history) is perhaps more dangerous. To cop the trendy term, history (and the "scriptures" of old shoemaking texts) are our "Decision Tree", and just because someone can't get some historical technique or formula to work just right after a few tries doesn't mean it's up the chute or doesn't/didn't work. The human factor is involved, plus when some guy in 1688 say "pitch", we can't be sure whether it's #55, or #64, Rausch's, or Swedish, or something entirely different. Some folks do just love to re-invent the wheel, and don't want to bother investigating what came before, or how those people might have solved problems to save us, today, some time and effort.

[gotgrit]

I think Richard's point (person I was quoting)

Consider the source!

This is more true than ever (on the Internet)
some see something online and take it as fact

You guys understand the scientific method better
than most, but the average person takes very
little time considering if something they read is
possible or not...

lol - I think I have almost $10Billion waiting for me to collect from someone who died they need to transfer it to the USA so they can spend it...

[das]

Tom,

I'm with ya there buddy...the Internet is a "weird place"

[romango]

I just finished inseaming a shoe using hand wax made from Gugolz #73 pitch, rosin, beeswax 1:1:1 and a few drops of fish oil.

It works very well. It stays on the thread nicely and locks up nice and tight.

It behaves very much like the stuff I used at DW's boot school.

[dw]

Rick,

That's pretty encouraging. I am glad to see folks experimenting with this. Hand wax...and the ingrediants to make it...were getting a little worrisome there. With this Gugolz, I think we may be able to breathe a little easier.

I trust that folks know that there is "synthetic" beeswax out there and that you don't want that. It is derived from petroleum product and may rot your linen thread.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[fred_coencped]

DW,Rick et al, Ross Waaxes in New Jersey is a prime source for pure beeswax and the synthetic stuff too.They cater their products to the cosmetic and food industries .I have gotten flakes and chunks from them.Their # is 732/669-0814.My brother the chemist provided me with the source when I needed carnauba wax. I found the company to be exceptionally obliging .Hope someone is interested !OK,theres my 2 cents,Fred

[fred_coencped]

Woops ,that should be Ross Wax,sorry Fred

[amuckart]

My 3kg of #55 Gugolz pitch arrived a couple of days ago, thanks Tom. I got 3kg because the expense of shipping to NZ made it sensible to get as much as I could. I did notice when I stood all three cylinders up that they had all flowed a little bit in transit, so this stuff will flow given enough time. I've got a small lump on paper on my shelf to see what happens.

I've only had a brief play with it so far, I can say that a 1:1 pitch/rosin mix is way, way too hard, and a 1:1:1 #55 pitch/rosin beeswax mix is disgustingly sticky to tafy pull, and very difficult to clean off fingers, but seems promising once it's cooled.

I expect it's going to take some experimentation to find a mix that works but doesn't involve beeswax. Beeswax makes a fine wax but was a seriously expensive luxury item in medieval times so I think it somewhat unlikely to have been used.


Things I've discovered so far:

- Breaking up the kilo cylinders is messy (they shatter and the little pieces quickly go soft at room temperature and stick to everything) and melting a kilo of this at once is tricky. I used a catering-sized coffee can looted from my office.

- Finding things to cast manageable size lumps of pitch into that the lumps can be extracted from after cooling is difficult. I want to do this so I can have handy weighable 1oz or so lumps so I can control quantities as I'm working out recipies.

Tom, if you have any ideas on this I'd love to hear them.

I've used paper cup cake cups in a muffin pan for now but something about 1/2 to 1/4 the size would be better. Plastic ice cube trays don't work. It sticks and shatters when you try and get it out.

- It's easier to get the cupcake cups off if you freeze the pitch first.

- Frozen pitch shatters when dropped

- When you pour mixes of this stuff into water it forms a skin with a searingly hot napalmy centre in a way that rosin/beeswax mixtures don't. I came awfully close to burning myself finding this out.

Rees' "best soft pitch" this isn't (no criticism, I knew that already) so the 4:1 rosin/pitch mix he talks about obviously isn't going to work. That got me thinking on things that I could use to soften it.

If it's the lighter volatiles and solvents that make the pitch soft, would it work to take something too hard - like #55 pitch - and something much too runny - like stockholm tar, and mix them up to get something that's still basically purely pine pitch but is now softer?

I'll try this when I find some stockholm tar. I haven't found the horsey shops in this town yet.

[romango]

I used 1:1:1 pitch:rosin:beeswax with Gugolz #73 plus a few drops fish oil. I found the pulling satisfactory and the end product seems pretty good. Locking is excellent but I think it could adhere to the thread just a little better.

I'm thinking of increasing the fish oil slightly, rather than more beeswax. There doesn't seem to be much concern/controversy about rosin but I have read that this product can come in many varieties, in some cases chemically modified.

[das]

Mack,

Thermowax is out? I always kept some of that for emergencies--I'll guard my last 3 boxes with care. Maybe the US supplier Jared Holt Co. still makes theirs? In all events you're probably better off making it yourself--better wax and known ingredients are a plus. What do you use for pine pitch, now that old-fashioned distilling turps process has been replaced with some new method, and all has mostly gone to China?

[dw]

I think Goetz still carries Swartzbeck... (that's the Swedish pitch that is used for hand sewing). Comes in black and a amber colour.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[dw]

Oops..When I said the Swartzbech was Swedish pitch I mis-spoke. I meant it is Swedish handwax. Pitch is probably an ingrediant but it is not the same.

Sorry.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[mack]

Al,
Yes thermowax is not made in the UK anymore. Most people I know are living off there remaining stock. I spoke with a company rep and asked him if I could have the recipe but of course he said no!
So I then started researching to make my own.I had some pitch and I bought resin and tallow and I have made quite a lot of wax with varying success, it always seems to turn out slightly different.I am now very short of pitch and will have to source some more,is the Gugolz stuff good?. I find the various pitches and resins a bit confusing as to which is best I need to read the whole discussion on wax again to get the favoured mix.
Regards Mack.

[das]

Mack,

Thanks for the reply. Ach weel, Thermowax wax is gone...

Best pitch I ever used came from White Sea & Baltic Co. in Leeds, but they no longer get it from Sweden *sigh*. My lads have tried the Gugolz for wax, and found even the softest type was more brittle than our old stocks. It tends to make a jet black wax as well--not that nice amber/bronze color after pulling it to bleach it. It seems to behave alright on the threads though, but hasn't got that nice strong aroma we're used to.

Pine rosin seems the easiest ingredient to find, as close as your local music store to rosin violin bows. It's the soft, genuine pine pitch that's the rub. Pretty soon we'll all be forced to say good bye to our hemp thread, and with the Dacron polyester threads, the wax is mostly cosmetic anyway, sad to say.

With the pitch formerly available, I used the base mix of 2 parts pitch, to 1 part rosin, then yellow beeswax to temper it to the season/ambient temperature, but with the erratic quality of pitch available these days, I may be back to square-one on a formula.

[wsbailey]

I'm new to The Crispin Colloquy but I have been following the hand wax discussion with great interest. From what I have learned from surfing the net is that the astromony pitch is manufactured using petroleum products. Another group that uses pitch is silversmiths. The seem to use the vegetable based product (ie. pine trees). I'm not sure what all the ingredients they use are but here is a link to one source.

Bill

http://www.northwestpitchworks.com/home_main.html

[wsbailey]

Here is a book on Naval Stores that might be of interest:

http://books.google.com/books?id=9HEDAAAAYAAJ&dq=turpentine+distillation+pitch

Here is another that has wax recipes:

http://books.google.com/books?id=6PMHAAAAQAAJ&dq=shoemaking&as_brr=1

Sperm whale oil is mentioned as an ingredient. Today it is hard to find but jojoba oil is similar in compostion and can be used as a substitute. There is also a jojoba wax available which might stand in for spermaceti.

http://www.oilsbynature.com/products/jojoba-oil-platinum-refined.htm

http://www.oilsbynature.com/products/jojoba-wax.htm

Good information on ingredients:

http://books.google.com/books?id=roNKAAAAMAAJ&dq=leather&lr=&as_brr=1

Bill

[lancepryor]

I contacted Northwest Pitch Works. They do state that their product has "a pine resin base and contains no petroleum products." Beyond that information, the seller would not say where the product comes from or how it is made, so your guess is as good as mine -- any thoughts Al or DW? Their minimum order is 3 pounds -- I might be willing to 'take one for the team' and order some. If so, I'd be happy to send some on to others for your opinions/review, so I'll keep you posted.

Here is another source I came up with by googling various silvermaking and jewellry making links. Perhaps it looks more like rosin? pitch
and this one, which they say they make themselves: see mountain gems' jewellers' pitch

Lance

ps Do I have too much time on my hands, or what?

[wsbailey]

In his article on code Marc Carlson writes:
"Pine Tar Pitch: I recently purchased this "Pine Tar Pitch" from J. Townsend and Co., which is a pale green and smells only vaguely of pine. After asking, they told me that it was made from some industrial process dealing in mass amounts of wood. My suspicion is that their source has extruded the "tar" without actually carbonizing the wood, and so not causing the dark colors and the burnt wood smell. If this is the case, it can be used for pitch in making shoemaker's wax - just not for doing historical shoes".
I see that Auson Genuine Pine Tar is available from noxudol on eBay in liter cans. They also have it in 5 and 20 liter cans plus 55 gallon drums. Would boiling this down make pitch?

Bill

[dw]

Lance,

I am not sure that the prices or quantities represented by these various sources are a better deal than the Gugolz. Nor, without actually seeing it, am I convinced that the hardness will be significantly different than the Gugloz--all of these products, including the Gugolz, are intended for the same purpose.

But thinking about it, I wonder if the ingredient that makes pitch soft, or softer, is really critical to making handwax?

It seems that no degree of softness has ever been "just right" for hand wax. Shoemakers have been adding a softening agent (or two) to their handwax since time out of mind.

As I recall...and anyone is free to correct me...from talking to the owner of Rausch Naval yards years ago, the difference in the various pitches comes down to residual turpentine. But shoemakers, for whatever reason, have never added extra turp to soften their wax.

The point I'm trying to make is that maybe it doesn't make any difference how hard or soft the pitch is. By the time we mix with rosin and/or beeswax, cod oil, or jojoba oil...all of which we can vary to one degree or another as regards quantity added...and all over a heat source, if we haven't driven the residual turpentine off we have certainly overwhelmed it with these other ingredients.

I've made acceptable...or at least I think it's acceptable...hand wax from rosin and beeswax and a bit of oil alone--no pitch. It's a nice ivory colour, and there are places in my making that I prefer it to the black wax--when welt stitching white thread, for instance.

I think the Townsend source is rosin...why it would be called "Brewer's pitch" is not clear to me.


Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[hydeandheddle]

Complete lurking ignoramus here working on my first shoe but, I can answer why it's called brewers pitch. It was used many years ago to line/waterproof barrels and other vessels in the brewing trade and sometimes to seal spigots and bungs.

[lancepryor]

DW:

You are probably right, but perhaps it is human nature to try to find the 'magic bullet' that would yield the perfect handwax. Given the challenges I seem to face in keeping bristles on the thread, plus wanting a good lock, I guess I'm interested in seeing if I can find anything better --As they say in golf, 'it's always the arrow and never the Indian!' As did Al's folks, I have found the Gugolz yields a handwax that is pretty brittle, so something better would be desirable. Of course, as you note, likely all pitch needs a softening agent, but I would like something less brittle.

William:

Meller Optics states on its website that Gugolz is plant-based (made from wood resin) and contains no petroleum by-products.

Al:

Here is a UK-based company that apparently is again importing Swedish pitch -- 25 kg is probably a bit more than I feel like trying to buy and get shipped to the USA:

wood boat supplies

They also sell 'genuine pine tar,' so perhaps they have the real deal.

Lance

[wsbailey]

Thanks Lance. The shipping on 25 kg to the US would be prohibitive. Boiling pine tar(even with the fumes) would be a lot easier for me to take. Everything I have read so far says that pitch is tar boiled to a solid. While not for everyone of course I think it would be interesting to boil down some pine tar and make a product with that old time smell and color. On the other hand, DWFII makes a good point that for all practical purposes Gugolz is sufficient and the price is certainly a point in its favor.
I looked up brewer's pitch on Google Books and here is what I found:

http://books.google.com/books?q=brewer%27s+pitch&btnG=Search+Books

Bill