The Crispin Colloquy

Jesse,

Jones and Vining can scan your last but it costs about $200. Then to make another pair.. add another $80 plus shipping.

I have used Smooth-on 300Q to make lasts and it can be nailed hammered sanded and sawed.

http://www.smooth-on.com/Urethane-Plastic-a/c5_1120_1209/index.html

This question is for all you boot makers out there. I am planning on making a pull on boot. I have begun following directions on pattern making. And once again, my innocence in footwear making as aposed to last making is glaringly obvious when I ask the following question:

For some reason i am all turned around. Now that I am trying to delve into making instead of last shaping, i am a bit conflicted as to how the last should be. Previously, I just made the last according to the customer's measurements, and relied on the maker to build out the areas necessary. However, now that I am trying to be the maker of my own boots, I am stumped.

I have four books I am looking at. One that is DW's. a second one, written by hockenberry, another named western boot making, I forget by whom, and finally, George Koleff's book on pattern making.

After reading and comparing them all, and looking at the section on pattern making, I am confused with the measurement added for the short heel.

In george's book he says for a western boot to add in the pattern something like 25mm to 36 mm over the actual measurment of the foot.

So here is where the Dah, question comes in, does this added measuremnt mean that I also need to add to the last over the cone area the amount needed in the pattern?

-Marlietta

This is an absolutely fascinating thread. I've been lurking here on and off ever since I knew of it (via DWF on another forum), but I finally decided to get an account.

I came across these insole photos of alden shoes on two of their lasts ("barrie" and "modified&#34 from their blog a while ago. The "modified" last occupies a huge following in Japan for its comfort and I think I am beginning to understand why, as related to the discussion earlier about swing and outflare/inflare. (Note that the insoles are for different sized shoes.)


I have no background or experience in boot/shoe/last making or foot anatomy (am a reasearch scientist in EE), but I find this a fascinating topic to read about. This forum is a treasurehouse of information and I thank all of you for sharing, participating and educating.

Also, DW -- I cannot wait to move in Portland later this year. I will definitely come visit and if you are interested in taking on a (possibly dumb) student with absolutely no background whatsoever, I would consider myself extremely fortunate.

Sure looks like a pidgeon toe typeshape to me. Doubt if it could be worn cept by someone pidgeon-toed.

Cheers,

jesseLee

<lol> Hey! I resemble that remark!

Nori

Noting wrong with the modified insole, as a matter of fact, shoes made with narrow waist give a better fit,mind you it makes lasting harder and out-soling uneasy,The shoe should fit somewhere near how a sock fit the foot in the inside waist of the foot,try pushing your shoe from inside arch,an inch above the feather/sole against your foot and see how much extra room in there, the middle of the foot has very little bearing/contact on the ground,less on the inside of the foot.

Nasser

Sri,

Nice to see you here. Hope you'll be a regular.

Al Saguto is a big fan of that swung forepart...as in your "modified" last bottom. I have a naturally straight medial configuration all the way to the toe, but I'm not as big a big fan as he is.

That said, I suspect it is closer to the way most feet are actually shaped than many modern lasts. Especially lasts made for the RTW market. But to the untrained (or unconcerned) eye, shoes made on such a last can look a little strange. Fashion conscious people don't want to look down at their feet and see that toeing-in.

Of course they will complain if their feet hurt too. That's the eternal conundrum for the shoemaker.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[center]Little Jack Dandiprat in a white petticoat,
The longer he lives, the shorter he grows.[/center]

Thank you DW -- I hope to learn a lot from this forum and its participants. The archives are really a treasurehouse of information. I really applaud the admin policy of having all the images stored on the forum.

Just to add on to the conversation, here is a scan from the 1920 book "A manual on foot care and shoe fitting for officers of the U.S. Navy and U. S. Marine corps" by W. L. Mann and S. A. Folsom.



The army last noted here is the famous Munson last and the other two are the modifications proposed for the navy/marine shoes (which are pretty similar). It is interesting to see the similiarities and discrepancies between these scans and the photo of the "modified" last that I posted above.

I am commissioning a (RTW, from what I undestand) ankle boot made on the Munson last from one of the forum members (who I found independently on google) to whom I have sent in copies of my socked foot scans with some girth measurements (no foot imprint though) to satisfy my curiosities about the swung lasts in general and Munson last in particular. This ankle boot will be a replica of the WW2 GI boot (an original photo below), a personal favourite of mine. There are several companies that provide *similar* looking specimens to the reenactor market, but none of them (in my opinion) do a good job.

Oops, images did not post. One more try:

1. The scan from the 1920 textbook:


2. The original munson last boot

DW -- I may have asked you this before, so please pardon me: Do you (or anyone else here) have photos you of what you call a 'inside cone' last and a regular (i.e non-inside-cone) last side by side?

And here are a couple more photos.

The first image is a scan from Edward Munson's 1912 textbook title "The soldier's foot and the military shoe; a handbook for officers and noncommissioned officers of the line" that introduces the Munson last and how it differs from the army shoe last of that time. Very interestingly, the author clearly notes that people consistently choose the wrong size (both in terms of length and width) if they are choosing the shoes themselves -- a fact that is true even today, something that is exacerbated by the lack of knowledge in most RTW shoe store people assisting purchases.

The solid line is the bottom of the Munson last. I believe that the lines B and C are referring to what DW calls LOMA (please correct me if I am wrong).


The second image is the above photo superimposed over the "modified" last. Notice how the older last (dotted line) is already somewhat swung, similar to the forepart of the modified last, and how the munson last further modifies this swing. What is interesting on the modified last is the heel part. That also seems to be somewhat turned medially -- is this common in custom lasts?


As DW rightly noted, many people on other fora have posted that while the modified last is comfortable, the last is "ugly" and that shoes made on this last look like an orthopedic (i.e corrective) shoe and so they would not buy it.

Sri,

I don't have a straight cone last in my possession. Sorry.

In the photo above, I realized you superimposed the outline on the last bottom and the angle may just be hard to see but to get a true comparison, you'll have to (roughly) locate the center of the heel on the last bottom and align it with the center of the heel on the outline. It doesn't look like you've got it quite centered. As for the forepart end of this line, I'm not sure what, exactly, it represents but I'm not sure it matters either.

Hope that makes sense...

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[center]Little Jack Dandiprat in a white petticoat,
The longer he lives, the shorter he grows.[/center]

Sri,

I am a bit late in contributing to this conversation. On a very simplistic level, the line of muscular action is always from the part of the heel bone that stricks the ground ( we call it the heel strick point) to the center of the metatarsal arch and continues forward. (Many will argue my point on this)

The mechanics of the foot strikes the center of the foot, rolls out on the lateral side and then rolls in to toe of on the large toe joint and then the large toe, unless there is a mechanical issue with the pair of feet themselves. For further information on this, I did a speach at the AGM confrance 2011. I don't know if the video is available yet from the crispen colloquy site but if it is, it might help explain further What I mean if you purchase it (Crispen site profits not me- it's a donation to keep the site up and running).

Furthermore, speaking only of the foot and not the ankle joint complex, the only area of the foot that bends significantly is at the metatarsal joints or in laymans terms the joints in-be-tween the large toe joint and the little toe joint. As an exersize, simply place your foot on the ground and flex those joints as if you were in a high heel shoe and down again. did any other joints move as significantly as the metatarsal joints? I doubt it. If it did, you would be in extreme pain!!! Therfore, also in laymens terms ( only as an illustration, but not a scientific method or correct one), a safe way to swing a sole is to take a tracing of a foot or even an existing last, and draw a line at that tracing at the metatarsal joints. Next draw a line down the line of muscular action, I discribed earlier in this message. Lay this on top of another piece of paper. Cut the outline of the tracing and the line at the metatarsal joints leaving a bit of a paper tag on the medial side( for inflare) or a paper tag on the outside (for an outflare) and swing the forpart up. Next tape it into position and trace the outer edge. Remove the cutted tracing, notice now how this "swinging has repositioned the lasts swing.

Now this is a very simplistic mannor in explaining swing, but I belive it illustrates where a lot of mechanized swing comes from when alterting a last. There are other things to concider like twist and microplantar spread where only 1/2 the foot's tarsal joints spread out medially but the other half stay in line. There are many veriables to swing and twist, but I belive for a visual refrance the above exersizes gives a breif discription of how swing can be achieved.

Again these are only visual excersizes not an actual way to do things!

Marlietta Schock
Lastmakingschool.com

Hello,

I am looking for feedback on this shoe last that I designed: link to my blog or check out the set on Flickr.

I didn't want to put too many pictures on the server (hence the links above) as I'm not sure that it's ok to show a virtual model of a last here (a long shot from actual shoes).

However, here is one picture as a sample:

I would really appreciate any feedback as this are my first steps in shoemaking (or lastmaking for that matter)

Joost,

I moved your last post to Open Forum->Techniques...->One lasts question

Which is a better location for this thread.

- Rick (admin)

Oops, sorry about that Rick and thanks for taking care of it

joost

Joost,
My opinion, FWIW. Excellent modeling job, but you have a ways to go. What you are showing would look like a clog and probably not be that comfortable. Would suggest you aquire a second hand last, somewhat in the style you are looking for. The last is not to make shoes but to get a feel for the shape. Koleff's book on last making might be helpful. Keep at it, you will get there.
Chuck

Hmm, I am aiming for a chelsea boot type of shoe, not for a clog so your feedback is much appreciated.
I guess I'll have to find a way to make it less bulky. Agreed, a second hand last would be a godsend

Thanks again for your feedback. I'm a complete noob at modelling, I've never done it before, so at least I already learned something

Thanks to Srivatsan's pictures. Now I see why Munson-last boots are very comfortable, especially for the foot with inflare toe. I would like to ask if someone can post picutures of the Munson last. It would be interesting to see what the bottom looks like, which is claimed to be the most comfortable one by Al.

Joost,
I'm glad to see someone is interested in making last. That's how I started. It's true that making shoe and last are very demanding skill set. By making last, I've learned a lot. Some shoemaking classes would be a big help to get you started. Last making class is very rare in here. Maybe you have better luck over there. With some wood working tools and skills, lots knowledge/document in this site, it's achievable.
To me, it's chicken and egg. You need to know both to be good at this trade.
Joe

Joseph,

hand modeled LAST MAKING classes ARE available in the US and ARE NOT RARE. Infact they are taught every spring and fall here in snohomish wa. There is also shoe school.com which is owned by allan. Taught in Port angeles Wa. He teaches shoe making classes and I think has a few videos out too.

Then there is Wilson Gracey videos which give step by step shoe making.

but you are right, learning both is a demanding skill set. What is so cool about this crispen collquy site though is if one reads all the archives it is the most educational book ever written about shoe, boot, and last making from experts who know and those wanting to know asking the questions.

Thus, if there is a term one doesn't know, it is searchable by doing a key word search to find it's definition.

-Marlietta
Lastmakingschool.com
Instructor.

I have been trying to shape the medial side of the last to better fit the inflare toe without much satisfaction. I'm considering the following options:
1. a minor bulge in the toe area, like Muson last.
2. make the forepart more inflare shape.
3. tighter waist area, but I haven't found it to be effective to prevent foot from slipping side way.
Any suggestion would be appreciated.
Here is a picture of the last:
Joe

Does anyone know where I can get a copy of Munson Lasts for personal use? I have a friend who is an expert in some CAD /CAM software tools and I want to get a scanned 3D model of the Munson last made so that I can study it better. I am really intrigued by this last and want to get a pair in my size ideally.

I will be more than happy to share the results of this study (or the software model of the last, as long as it doesn't break any IP rules) with the members here.

Also, if anyone wants an electronic copy of Dr. Edward Munson's 1912 book, please contact me. The book is an excellent read with some great x-ray photos comparing the how a typical foot looks inside a shoe made on commercial dress shoe lasts of the time and inside a shoe made on the Munson Last.

Do you have access to a 3D camera as well as some sort of duplicating machine?

The Munson Last is superior because it is closer to the average foot than more fashionable lasts. However, if you're making the last for a specific person, you can do even better with an average between a model of a fashion last and a model of the wearers foot.

http://cadanda.homestead.com/V2Nos1to4_02.pdf

Srivatsan,

You're on the right track to get closer into the Munson last for comparison. It represents an important phase in our lastmaking history--the "Hygienic" era ushered in by Meyer, and the so-called Meyer shape (versus the straight Camper shape). The Munson last was designed from scratch by an experienced medical doctor in the 1900s, as a generic last for mass-producing soldiers' combat footwear, all outlined in his 1912 book. It is very anatomically correct in its design, though somewhat "compromised" to adapt well to mass production via the Goodyear welted system machines (heel seat is a little flat for ease of machine lasting, and there is little "twist" in the bottom plane). Munson felt his last could/should have been even more inflare in sole shape, but the feet he was working with back then were so deformed by bunions to begin with, he gave up and allowed a little less inflare "swing" than he felt nature intended.

An added benefit here, too, lasts designed by the US government on the publics' time and dime are public domain--free from copyright/patent--so there is nothing proprietary about anybody ever copying it. Same goes for the "US NAVY" last, that came out around the same time as Munson's, but for the US Marine Corps and Navy, one for a 5-6/8" heel height for an open-tab Derby shoe, and another (very rare variant) with a 1" heel height for a laced boot. These "NAVY" lasts have a much tamer toe shape (less bulbous than Munson) more suitable for fashionable footwear, but still loads of swing and anatomically correct. Some Texas bootmakers love the "NAVY" last for making "roper" boots for inflare customers with lots of toe swing.