One "Last" Question

[gshoes]

Marlietta,

Thank you for all of your insight into last making. Your comments are very helpful. I just ordered that Caliper gauge center finder from Rockler. I think that it will help in many situations. The lasts that I just made measure 2.75" long and are created to make novelty Boot keychains. So this is good practice for the real thing but I obviously have no issue with making it fit. I have the perfect customer. I just want the boot to look realistic and like a matched set.

Geri

[last_maker]

Well, from the picture size I would not have guessed that you were making tiny elf size lasts. How cute is that! Perhaps you just invented a new industry of doll shoes made on custom lasts???

the center finder may not help you as much if you do not have calipers as a tool match. do you have spring or regualar calipers? for this tool to make a diiference to you? The center finder is to help you record the measurement you just took from one caliper and transfer it to the other last.

Also the Shoe sizing stick
http://www.shoestuffandshoes.com/browse.cfm/ritz-shoe-size-stick/4,1101.html still might help you to insure that they are the same length at least.

all in all though, they look good.

-marlietta
Lastmakingschool.com

[kemosabi]

From Al;


I think you'd do better looking at classic bespoke lasts for hand-sewn, Golding, et al. My two cents is:

1) Start with the person's foot (yours)
2) Respect the bottom shape, inflare, outflare, neutral
3) Crest of instep cone follows the first met group right down to the joint ("inside cone"]
4) Radiused feather-line around heel-seat and waist (convex bottom under heel--not flat)
5) A natural amount of "twist" in the heel-seat, higher medially than laterally
6) Thin, concave cuboid area of last to clip close
--------------------------------------------


Al,
Thank you for taking the time to explain. Your list is a good method to help me understand.

Item 5); I remember reading about last twist in one of Golding’s volumes, but was left with the question of “how much twist is correct”? Is there a rule of thumb for this? Seems like it was based on heel height if I remember correctly. (probably need to go back and re-read Golding’s section on this).

----------------------------------------------------------
The more wildly anatomical you make the last, however, the more difficulties you'll have making a satisfactory boot or shoe on it. And nobody wants their shoes to look just like there feet, so some compromises are necessary.
------------------------------------------

Agreed. I tend not to mind if my boots look more like feet, but I understand your point. An example of one of my favorite pair of boots, and something that’s on the project list for attempting someday in leather. Traditionally I don’t think these are made on lasts, but a leather one would probably require a special last… and interesting soling techniques especially around the big toe.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jika-tabi

13704.jpg

-Nat

[elfn]

I don't mind my shoes looking like my feet either. Fit and comfort, first prerequisite.

Nori

[rosesj]

I just purchased a pair of shoe lasts off eBay and have a couple questions.

First, the joint is EXTREMELY stiff. I can pop it back and forth using a solid surface and half my weight, but I don't believe I could pop it with a hook while in a shoe without completely ripping the shoe apart. What it needs, in my estimation, is to have the pins knocked out and the metal cleaned up. However, to be honest... I don't know what is actually inside and don't want to ruin it as a learning experience.

Second, could I just add some penetrating oil (WD-40) or would this ruin the last around the wood and/or come off onto the shoe. If I am judicious, would that be OK to do?

Third, the last has a finish on it, kind of like a shellac or some sort of old clear finish. I was under the impression that they were supposed to be left natural.

Forth, what is the purpose of the metallic heel plate? I have a book on back-order that should answer this one. But if you would be so kind, I would appreciate it.

Thanks,
Shane

[artzend]

Shane

The joint is supposed to be stiff, you need a lasting pin to break it for removal. If it was more flexible it would break while you were lasting and that is most annoying.

You can tighten up a last, but not make it more flexible and oil probably won't do the job.

Most lasts were varnished so that is probably ok. You can sand it back to wood if you want but it won't achieve anything.

The heel plate is for factory tack lasted seats. You can remove this by inserting a flat screw driver in from the front flat surface and twisting the screw driver slightly to loosen the nails or screws after you have taken out any obvious screws that are sometimes there.

Don't insert the screwdriver from the outside edge or you will damage the feather edge of the last. Work your way towards the back going from one side to the other until the nails are loose enough to get pincers on, when you can remove them one by one.

Tim

[das]

Tim,

I have some old used hinged lasts that are too loose. How does one tighten the hinge?

[dw]

Al,

If it's the standard spring last that breaks the backpart upward from the mid waist, you have to drive the pins out and bend them.

They have a slight bend in them already and that bend has to be located in a certain direction. (It's too early in the morning for my slow moving brain to remember or figure it out.

This is what I was told by Mac or Bill T., or somebody. The advice was given regarding a plastic last that I had that was terribly loose.

I tried it. The pins were difficult to bend and putting the last back together was a bear. The improvement was minimal but real. Whether it was because I did something wrong or because the last was just too loose, I don't know.

I generally create a wedged shape block of wood and nail it into the "v" cut hinge opening and then shape it to the lines of the last, rather than go to all the trouble of taking the last apart.

Voila! No problems at all with the last breaking open during lasting.


Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[dearbone]

Al,

Hammering in the two pins toward the center of the last should tighten the hinge.

Nasser

[artzend]

DA

I was told that the pins were bent and had to be straightened. You can only knock them out one way because of some grooving on one end. Use a philips head screw driver the same width as the pins.

Knock the pin out and then hammer it straight and then knock it back in following the screwdriver. DW is right, it is difficult to get back in, but if you follow the screwdriver you have a chance.

Tim

[das]

Thanks all. I'll give it a crack.

[dw]

Tim, Al,

Well, it's been a long time ago. I could have gotten it wrong. But I will say this...I don't know how the last and breaking it open could possibly bend that pin.

It is stout. It is a quarter inch in diameter of hard steel. It cannot be so soft that breaking open the last, even a thousand times, will bend it. It was very difficult to bend it even more when I pulled it from the last. I had to use a sledge hammer.

I can't describe how all this works together--the pins and the crescent shaped plates inside the body of the last--but, at the time, it made sense to the engineer in me that the plates were not tight when the pins were in place. That bending the pins would tighten things up.

Again, take this with a grain of salt. I did this once and with only marginal results. Having done it once I would always go back to the block of wood rather than try to tighten the spring.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[artzend]

DW

The reason I found out about the pins etc was buying a set of sloppy lasts, they all dropped open. I found that when removed, the pins were all bent, and straightening them sorted the problem.

Al, use a screwdriver the same size as the pins, it's difficult to get them back in if you get the plates missaligned. Remember they only come out one way and should be relatively easy to knock out.

Tim

[rosesj]

Here is a question that confuses me greatly.

The last is basically the 'soul' or " mother" of the boot/shoe. It forms the basis of what the shoe will look like. HOWEVER, I see people treat them as if they were a 5 gallon bucket, with one purpose and little variation. What I mean by this is that people post they are "looking for a last" as if it were white bread, or all the same. People advertise used lasts for sale as if there was no variation other than the need to take a hammer toe into account with an addon. Now... Everyone here talks about FITTING the last to the customer. I understand that. But little is talked about concerning the shape and style of the last in relation to the finished shape and style of the shoe. And perhaps this is where my thinking is off.

I understand that in western boots there is not a lot of "style/shape" variation other than the shape of the toe. Otherwise, the main differences appear to simply be the way, design, and color of the leather as it is placed on the last.

Do you use different lasts for each different toe style? If I came to you and said I want 3 pairs of boots. One with a needle point toe, one with a round toe, and one with a wide chisel toe. (all with the same heel height) are there 3 lasts involved or do you build up each toe differently on the same last or is this all variations in applying the toe box? I have read about making boots, but all the steps are related to the 'last in hand' and I assume it's because it matches what was ordered in the first place.

I am missing something I believe.

The next question I have is when buying a last, especially for shoes. How do you see the final shape of the shoe? Now I suspect this is a huge amount of experience, however upon purchasing a new last... Do the companies "mockup" a plain shoe to show the basic outcome of the last". Basically I see shoe shapes I like, but have no idea how to find the style of last it would have come from. All the sewing and closing... I basically understand. But this one crucial aspect is still lost to me.

[dw]

Shane,

Well, there are several flaws in your basic assumptions...

First, whether it be western boot lasts or shoe lasts, they are not all the same nor, in some cases, even significantly similar.

Every production last is turned from a model. Models embody all sorts of topography and relationships that are not evident to the neophyte or the casual eye.

Toe shapes are more or less independent of these factors and yes, if I had a customer who wanted a pair of boots made in three radically different toes shape, I'd probably use the same last for all three.

I chose my lasts models many years ago. The reasons for choosing those particular models were, and are, complex but at bottom I wanted a last that did not crowd the toe; that respected foot anatomy and had little or no degree in the heel and had an inside cone. As well as a pronounced "root of the fifth"

Some aspects (which I like and am grateful for, today) I inherited from my mentor with little or no thought or understanding. The relation of the heel seat width to the tread width. The relation of the instep and short heel girths. The bottom radius's, toe spring, etc..

Now, almost none of this is critical for fitting a foot properly--everything can be changed on a last if the foot itself indicates it. But starting with a good model--one that you understand...and understand the consequences of using...provides a springboard from which to make modifications and, just as importantly, from which to learn.

Many styles of footwear require different lasts simply because that style of shoe has certain limitations or constraints that necessitate alteration.

For example, you cannot make a pull on boot on a shoe last (or vice versa) without extensive modification. It took me a number of failures to realize how extensive such modifications needed to be--to the extent that a boot last, remodeled for making an oxford, was no longer even close to looking or functioning as a boot last.

Lasts must respect and embody the foot but they are not models of the foot. Which is why a plaster cast of the foot so seldom works as a last. Granted, a shoe can be made over an extensively modified plaster cast...and successfully, at least in terms of fit...but to the extent that the resulting "last" tries to emulate the foot, something will always be missing, style-wise if nothing else.

Finally, lasts, and patterns, and making techniques are all critically interdependent. You cannot take a set of patterns for making boots the way I make them, for instance, and make them work with lasts that deviate significantly from the parameters and configurations of the last models that I use. Not and expect the same results. Sometimes not even without major failure.

Anymore than you can take my lasts, my patterns and someone else's making techniques and be successful.

The assumptions and philosophies that inform my bootmaking making are not universally shared. The patterns, despite being as close to the standards of the old literature as any I've seen, are not universal. The making/assembly techniques are widely variable. Yet they are all basic, all critical to the way I do things.

And each maker...shoemaker, bootmaker, whatever...has his own unique "system" that cannot, ought not, be mixed with some other system without an expectation of mixed results.

In an ideal world, every maker will choose his/her last models because they embody certain functional as well as aesthetic attributes that the maker wishes to see.

In the real world, most makers just use the lasts their teachers passed down to them. Perhaps the most understandable reason for this is simply that it takes years of experience to see and understand feet and lasts such that you can look at a strange pair of lasts and evaluate them in accordance with what you wish to achieve.

This is a deep and complex subject. With many different ways of approaching something like an understanding. Lasts are a too easily dismissed and much under-rated aspect of making shoes or boots. But they are the most important tool that a maker has at his disposal.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

(Message edited by dw on July 24, 2011)

[rosesj]

Thanks DW,

My assumption wasn't that all lasts were the same. In fact I understand the exact opposite, just as you said. I understand explicitly the critical nature of them in the final product which is why the way some people seemed to simply "want a last" or buy "200 lasts sight unseen" boggled my mind. I simply couldn't understand how you knew what you were getting and what they would be like. It's like buying a "horse" and not knowing whether a Percheron or a Shetland was going to show up on your doorstep.

I bought a shoe last on eBay which appears to be a relatively standard Oxford basis. So I'm going to use it for practice if nothing else. But I must learn more about actual last styles. I will order a catelog from J&V and hopefully be able to make a good purposeful purchase. I understand the measuring of the foot so I can give them good measurements I believe. However, I'm not sure how to "choose" a last which will translate into the boot or shoe I envision.

I understand the build-up modification etc in theory. I understand the process of pattern design (in theory), I even have a pretty good "theoretical understanding" of the actual making of the boot. All of these things I am relatively confident in doing. However the point where I have no confidence in, is making the initial choice that the last I choose will result in the shape I want in the end.

I've read your book, Vaas and Moolar, Leno, and another which I can't remember and I still don't have a good grasp on this point. I guess it's the doc in me, but I like to understand or at least have a good idea of understanding before I begin. And knowing how critical this point is, I want to make good decisions. As Lisa said in a previous post " When starting out things WILL go wrong and sometimes it's hard to know whether it is the machine or operator error." if I have the right last... Then i know it's all me.

DW, I'm on vacation and don't have access to your book. But I don't remember you talking about changing the toe very much in your book. As I remember it, you were showing the basics of lasting but in my recollection, the toe style/box fit the last you had without modification. Do you have a recommendation for reading to learn how I would modify a last in this way? Is it simply building up the toe with leather and reshaping it? (I say simply only because of the simplicity not difficulty in execution.)

This point is important to me because for the most part... My work will simply be my own, and therefore I want to experiment a lot on styles. I had thought I would need a different set of lasts for each style, and it still might be beneficial given that and decisions to make something new would simply be to take that last off the shelf and be ready to go. But I still want to know how to change a last in the manner you stated.

PS. I would do a course, but there is no chance either my partners or patients would give me 3 weeks in a row. :-)

Thanks,
Shane

[sorrell]

Shane,
I just had a student who spent three years on his own learning from a book before he came and took a class with me. It was nice because he had some basic hand skills and the understanding of what he needed to learn. But, like him, if you continue with this you WILL reach the point where if you're serious you'll want to spend time with a teacher. There are many, many things that it's impossible to learn from a book or an online forum. Just a little heads-up so you'll know to start thinking about scheduling that class with DW at some point in the future...

[dw]

Shane,

Well, I apologize if I misunderstood/misunderstand the question.

It is very hard to answer your questions, however, because the answers are both simple and complex.

For instance, there probably is no book in the world, including mine that can give you the skills and knowledge you're looking for regarding toe shapes or even build-ups.

The thing I tell students is that they need to take a last that they admire, rotate it in front of a bright light like a window, while squinting at it.

This will present an infinite series of "profiles" or "horizons."

You need to examine and study the last--these profiles--over and over again. Until you know it like your own body. Until you know where every curve changes course. Until you could do a pencil sketch of every line and every angle.


From there it is dead simple--no matter what type of build-up you are putting on the last you want to respect those lines.

You want to blend any build-up into the curves of the last such that when you squint at it in a bright light the build-up is indistinguishable from the essential shape of the last--from any and all angles.

This means, for instance, that a build-up which modifies the toe shape must blend into the last at the featherline, at one millimeter above the featherline, at two millimeters above, at three millimeters above, etc.. Every degree of rotation in all ten dimensions.

And then when you've done all that, you still have to bring your own sense of proportion and balance into the mix.

But wait!! Even then, especially when building up to fit a foot, you have to respect the foot and its demands--girth measurements, treadline or heel seat widths,etc..

And on lasts themselves everything is interdependent...again. For example, if you increase the instep girths by building up on top of the cone, you will increase the long heel or short heel (or both) as well. Are you sure you want to do that?

If you build up over the forepart to accommodate a larger joint girth without taking treadwidth into consideration, you risk damaging the foot or shortening the life of the boot...or both.

Can you increase the low instep girth without increasing the long heel? The answer is yes, the details are in the foot.

Having said that, every maker has his own opinions about every single aspect of this...even some of my students eventually deviate from my approach.

Bottom line is that no one can give you a definitive answer on any of this. You have to develop your own eye and your own sensibilities.

A master lastmaker once told me that a good shoemaker should be able to take any size last and turn it into any other size last. I'd hate to have to,( although I have gone from a 7 to a 10, and from a 9 to a 7) but I suspect there is a kernel of truth in that statement. What, after all, is carving a last from a block of wood but converting a near infinite range of possible last sizes to one specific size?

I don't know if that helps...all I can do is pass on another old saw: "if it was easy everybody would be doing it."

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[romango]

Well put DW

[last_maker]

The last represets the foot insided of the intended footwear and is designed according to the function of the footwear. Thus if the function of the foot wear needs a wide entry such as in pull on boots, than you are going to see a wide cone and a wide heel area as well as a straighter back behind the heel and and a hollowing along the sides that is thicker than say a last intended for a pump. Boot makers are very familiar with these intricasis and each maker has a preferance to a last based on how they want the footwear to function , how the foot will get into the boot and look aethetically. Where as in a pump last you are going to see a lot of hollowing out along the sides where you see it /|\ look like this. This hollowing is called the last clip. also too you are going to have a rounder heel and many more features. all these features are to keep the pump on the foot. Whereas, if you are making an oxford with say a ½" heel, you are going to need to have the toes turned up more in what is called the toe spring but a softer "vamp angle" ( the angle from the ball break of the sole to the top of the vamp) than say in a pump last especially if you are planning on utilizing a leather welted sole.

George kelloff has a popular book regarding last design. I think another helpful book is golding's book volume 1 in the crispen library that DW so generously provided all of us.

I do belive the last is the heart and sole of the footwear, but it is to the degree of the footwear's function on the foot.

If you look at the above entry that Lance had in february of this year, you can almost see from the lateral side the the foot ( the outer margin of the foot) inside of the footwear intended.

So when you think of a last, think of it as a tool to help you make your footwear holding the positions of design, you as the maker, have intended. It is sculpted to hold the "spring" in the toe for rocking action of the footwear while you are making the footwear. It is designed to hold the heel height of the intended footwear in position of that heel hight, it is designed to hold the measurements of the intended foot, it is designed to hold the intended toe shape, sole shape, and fitting in order for the footwear to fit.

The last is purposful shape is used to hold the features you want your footwear to look and function with out it's purposful shape it would be hard to control the shape and design intended for the footwear in being made..

-Marlietta Schock
Lastmakingschool.com

[btippit]

Hey! Look who decided to jump in the water for a swim.

I don't think there's any need for me to add to what DW has said regarding Shane's questions about last shapes and selection. Insightful and well put as usual DW. I will admit to the fact that when I was supplying lasts for the custom and bespoke makers I had to fight VERY hard not to get angry when someone talked about buying used lasts sight unseen to be used for custom footwear. The first thought that would pop in my head is, "Seriously? You're embarking upon a journey where you someday hope to create a product that will fit someone and be of such quality that you can charge hundreds or even thousands of dollars for it and you want to save a few bucks on the foundation of the product?" Even if it were for learning on your own feet on your first pair of boots I felt it was important to purchase a last that was actually made for the type of footwear you were going to make.

Eventually I realized that there were two very diverse groups that would make such a crippling (pun fully intended) business decision. The first were the folks who suddenly got a hair up.....OK, let me rephrase....suddenly decided they were going to become shoemakers on a whim and sooner rather than later they would be moving on to the next "cool thing to do". So frankly, I didn't care to spend any time on them as customers anyway. The second group, and far less likely to put themselves in this position, was a true craftsman who had the experience and knowledge to take the rough shape they were given and create a last for whatever unusual project that had fallen into their lap. They just needed a certain basic length or even heel height and could take it from there. Those orders I didn't mind filling at all.

Regarding the earlier subject, I think I can add a little bit of insight on the hinge issue. Any hinge pins that were bent would have definitely caused a problem with the hinge tightness. The pins should be straight. As DW said, it is terribly difficult to bend one of these pins as they are quite hard. However, with the strength of production shoe machinery and repetitive use over years, it can happen. Another more common issue is that the pins work themselves into one of the hidden air pockets inside the last caused by inferior molding. This will very quickly disable a hinge to the point of being too weak to perform its duties. The solution for this is to get a longer pin (that still remains totally inside the last of course) and therefore bridge the void.

As for removing and replacing the pins, it's relatively easy. First you need somewhere you can lay the last and hammer the pins out without damaging the last surface. It would be quite easy to build a hollow box with a leather top and a hole in the top plenty big for the pin being removed to fall into. Then get a 1/4" or slightly smaller punch and drive the pin out.

To replace the pin you will need a "guide pin" to lead the new pin into place. Get a 1/4" HARD steel rod and taper it to a sharp point. Using your punch, drive this guide pin into place where the original pin was. Then place the new pin into the hole and hammer it into place, pushing the guide pin out. Be sure the new pin is seated about evenly and not falling into any holes.

Our friends at JV will most likely sell you some pins. They come in different lengths so specify what you need. They might even be willing to sell you some guide pins. Many, MANY years ago when I worked at JV we had something called "short" hinges which were exactly that...slightly shorter than normal. These could be used to tighten up a last that had worn down and loosened up. However, that was back in the good old days of two piece hinges. I'm not sure if these cheesy one piece hinges that are in use today offer such a solution.

Well, time to step back into the mist and disappear for awhile. Enjoyed being here with you folks again....

"The last comes first"
Bill Tippit

[das]

Bill,

Thanks for the Tippit-tips!

[last_maker]

It was great to hear from you Bill!

Although we have never met, It was all your words on this site that has clearified many questions I had regarding lastmaking after my mentor/teacher/boss died. I have been very greatful for your forthcomming knowlege. I love to read your comments, experience and your insights.

My teacher often told me that a good last maker could make a new last from an old one, shaped and rasped to fit. He said it was simply a matter of sculpting. he would drill home that a good last maker could shape a last from a block of plastic, wood, clay or what ever medium the apprentice is given and turn out a last shape that would be functional and would fit the customer.

So in a way, an arbetrary last could be used, but only if one intendes on utilzing it as if it were a blank block of wood and reshaping it for the intended footwear. If not, custom, meaning footwear built to fit and be equisite looking, custom,custom is key to quality footwear.

I hope the master last maker job is working out for you.

-Marlietta

Lastmakingschool.com

[luckyduck]

Hi,

I have a last selection question for making an ankle high dress boot using packer style construction with a low heel.

Should I use a shoe last or a roper last?

It seems I can argue both ways and both are available from 4 square. So far I'm leaning toward a shoe last to keep heel fit more shoe like.

Thanks for your opinions.

Paul

[dearbone]

Paul,

For open front(laced) ankle boots i use shoe last that matches the foot joints and instep.

Nasser