One "Last" Question

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Re: One "Last" Question

#1501 Post by dw »

Marlietta,

Finally, I am not asking these questions to simply shyly nudge you a different way, in a know it all way, but to understand what you guys are doing to add and subtract from lasts and create aethetically pleasing and good fitting footwear.


No worries...I understood that. I just wish I had the foundation of knowledge that you have. then I could more reasonably evaluate your observations. As it is all I have to go on is years of trial and error.

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Re: One "Last" Question

#1502 Post by janne_melkersson »

Lance,

"When we think about last shapes, as I see it, there are mainly three things we end up worrying about (leaving the 'girth measurements out of it, as well as the heel profile): insole shape; last 'border' shape, and location of the cone/mass of the last above the border"

Since I am a consistent follower of the tracing and the imprint of the foot I don't think much about the thing you mentioned above. The starting point in last making as I see it should be that we look at our clients as unique persons. That is why DW could clip his great toe as he did, he know it will work. But the next client who could have the same imprint can not stand the pressure. What I try to say is that I believe you can not make doctrines when it is about bespoke lasts.

I have never used the centerline and the LOMA for making lasts but on the other hand I have never made lasts out of a block of wood.

"At the end of the day, are we really just using the shape of the plantar surface and the tracing to select a last that as closely as possible corresponds, then do additional modification to fine tune this?"

This is what I have been doing since 1979 and it is an understandable way of making lasts. I must admit that I did not understand much of the interesting discussion beeing held here.

However, as long as the knife get sharp it doesn't matter how you do it and the same thing here because in the end of the day it is all about if it fits or not.
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Re: One "Last" Question

#1503 Post by lancepryor »

Dw:

Thanks; your reply is very helpful.

I hope a few follow-up questions won't be taken as pedantic or annoying.

First, I notice on your imprint, etc. you have the LOMA starting at the center point in the middle of your heel; in your previous reply, you indicated that the LOMA starts at the rear of the heel where the center line intersects the heel. I would have thought it would be the former, but what is the correct answer? (not sure it really matters, but still....)

Second, I now understand how you define the centerline of the foot. How do you determine the centerline of the last? Do you do the same thing as with the foot (and, if so, with the insole shape or the last border shape?), or do you draw a line from the heel center to the center of the toe, or something else?

Third, you write that when the last is correctly aligned over the LOMA, the LOMA will nearly bisect the toe. But, how do you determine it is 'correctly aligned?'

Fourth, do I understand it correctly that your 'correct alignment' of the last may indicate significant medial buildup may be necessary; when you replied to Nick about his situation, you suggested aligning the last more to the medial side, and cite a 2/3 & 1/3 'rule of thumb'. I know this was without any real data on his feet, but how does that correlate with the 'correct alignment' of the last over the imprint?

Finally, given that you've measured and fit alot of feet over the years, in your experience how much does the centerline of the foot vary across different feet, relative to the middle toe? In your case, it is pretty close to the center of the middle toe, but have you seen others for whom this is not nearly the case? What is the furthest medially and laterally that you can remember seeing?

Thanks for indulging my curiosity.

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Re: One "Last" Question

#1504 Post by dw »

Lance,

No worries.
First, I notice on your imprint, etc. you have the LOMA starting at the center point in the middle of your heel; in your previous reply, you indicated that the LOMA starts at the rear of the heel where the center line intersects the heel. I would have thought it would be the former, but what is the correct answer? (not sure it really matters, but still....)


My first pedograph was a little hasty. There are lines and measurements that I use which are not on there...simply because it would have made it too confusing.

So let me confuse you a little more--what I ordinarily do is start LOMA from where the centerline intersects a perpendicular to a line drawn along the side of the foot and as close to the heel to ball measurement as I can get as measured from the medial ball joint. Does that make sense? That perpendicular is also where I locate the featherline at the back of the last.
Second, I now understand how you define the centerline of the foot. How do you determine the centerline of the last? Do you do the same thing as with the foot (and, if so, with the insole shape or the last border shape?), or do you draw a line from the heel center to the center of the toe, or something else?


If I trust my last, I don't concern myself with the centerline of the last. As a matter of fact, aside from finding the center/start for LOMA at the back of the heel, I don't think about or use the centerline of the foot again. That said, if I wanted to find the centerline of the last I would do it exactly as I described for the foot.
Third, you write that when the last is correctly aligned over the LOMA, the LOMA will nearly bisect the toe. But, how do you determine it is 'correctly aligned?'


Aye, there's the rub, laddie. But again it comes down to knowing your last. For normal feet and for my boot lasts, LOMA always bisects the toe of the last...or near-as-nevermind. I have to be very aware of the shape of the foot as well. But then, that's part of my job when I measure up.
Fourth, do I understand it correctly that your 'correct alignment' of the last may indicate significant medial buildup may be necessary;


Sometimes. I can usually see if there are bunions or if the foot is "flared". Such anomalies make LOMA a bit harder to find, but for instance, if LOMA and the last are properly aligned, the feather edge of the last will fall short of the footprint when there is a bunion. Thus I see the need for a medial build-up. Sometimes this is real evident without even knowing the LOMA and at other times it can be real subtle.

That said, on a "perfect" foot...such as mine Image...the featherline on the last will almost automatically line up with the edge of the foot print at the medial joint and the toe with the LOMA.

Understand...I avoid positioning the last "inside" the footprint if I can possibly help it. In other words, on a "normal" foot I will always align the medial ball featherline on the last with the medial ball print. Again, this goes back to my belief...arrived at independently but concurring with Swaysland...that the foot will not settle much, if at all, to the medial side. As Swaysland says, the arch and the tarsal bone structure is simply too strong. So, I kind of regard the medial side of the last as a "wall" or delimition from whence the foot settles or spreads laterally. And interestingly enough, that's consistent with the very concept of LOMA at its roots--as an average of vectors or weight distribution during gait. And I am very fond of consistency.

I think what I said was that my teacher always preferred 2/3 & 1/3 but that generally I don't subscribe to that rule (except when widening a toe).
Finally, given that you've measured and fit alot of feet over the years, in your experience how much does the centerline of the foot vary across different feet, relative to the middle toe? In your case, it is pretty close to the center of the middle toe, but have you seen others for whom this is not nearly the case? What is the furthest medially and laterally that you can remember seeing?


Again, I am far more interested in LOMA than the centerline. The foot takes on all kinds of configurations. The centreline is just that--the center of mass. All kinds of things can affect the centerline without affecting fit or gait or anything else. For example--two feet, both size seven, both ostensibly a D width. But one has a narrow heel (a configuration bespoke makers see a lot). I don't know for certain that the forward end of the centerline would would come out at a different place relative to the middle toe on these two feet but I do know for certain that the angle I measure between the two tangent lines described above will be different.

Frankly, now that you mention it, I am interested in comparing the relative placement of the centerline...just for curiosity's sake. I still don't know what I would do with it, however.

Take all this with a grain of salt...my approach has evolved over nearly 40 years but I don't claim it's the "given word."

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(Message edited by dw on December 05, 2010)
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Re: One "Last" Question

#1505 Post by das »

DW & All,

First, for clarification, Lance, I may well have corn-fused issues misspeaking "in" versus "out" flare in haste. Correct me if wrong but inflare ("in" being medially) swung, or outflare ("out" being laterally) un-swung or to some degree "bunionized".

As to matching customer's foot shape to last shape, yes, I have a digital "library" of last models that range from max. swing (U.S. NAVY) last 1930s and others that match that degree of swing, lots of "neutrals" like my 1930s West Ender, and the all too common toe biting "outflare" shapes. First stop for me is seeing if I have a last model already that will fit the customer's foot shape re swing--I usually do.

When I saw into wood it's only to make a master turning model to have scanned, and I do this very infrequently, but Marlietta asked "how?", so I said. Let's say I get a really sexy old vintage last that I like in every respect for my "library", except it's obviously going to be a toe-biter (toe centered too laterally), I saw into it, swing it to match a known bottom paper ("neutral"-ize it, or inflare it), and send (or used to) it off to Tippit to scan, then order from that. In fact it was Bill who taught me the sawing and wedging technique. This swinging with saw cuts is used on the *model*--not the actual last.

What I omitted describing was how to find the tread-line on the last bottom for the saw cuts: take a piece of paper, make a heavy black area with a China-marking grease pencil; prop the last up to heel-height on a pre-built loafer heel or what-have-you; then rub the last's tread-line area side to side over the blackened paper, rocking the last to get a rub-line across the bottom feather-line to feather-line--voila, there's the last's tread-line to saw into from either side.

If you're going to charge "Mr. Smith" for a truly personal pair of custom lasts, why not swing an old "orphan" last that's close, to make a model (adjust girths and profiles), have that scanned then have a new pair turned for him and charge him "full freight"? *CHA-CHING* (U.S. slang for making money) IMO those custom lasts might still require fitting up for the larger girth foot, or a "blister" of leather here or there, but they shouldn't be some monstrosity--no matter how beautifully executed--created out of layer upon layer of leather shelling some poor little butchered last inside, especially seeing how fittings refuse to stay stuck to plastic lasts. Weigh this: what's better, spending hours gluing, skiving, sculpting and sanding leather scraps on a pair of lasts to sell (once), or fitting-up one single orphan last to the smaller foot, paying to have it scanned, and a fresh pair turned 1:1 ?

Since I won't be able to see all the pix you're discussing until I get into the office, I have no comments there except, I'm stumped--"strick point"? Please 'splain it to me Lucy'. In feet with depressed transverse met. arches, how do you locate this "V" point? Where it ought to be in nature? How?

DW, for one-offs, custom bespoke jobs, you're fine leathering-up your forepart/toe medially to increase swing; however, if you have a favorite last that ALWAYS requires a medial forepart fitting to not clip most any "neutral" foot (avoiding toe-biting), I'd say that last needs to be swung and a new model made. Thirty minutes with a saw, wedge and glue once, then have it scanned and future lasts made off of that improved model would save you a lot time and effort, as it will reduce the medial build-ups you'll need to do to it in future. Bear in mind, all of these tweaks are just like vol, bass, treble, mid-range adjustments on a hi-fi, just dial to suit your taste and acoustics so to speak.

Like you, I "follow the foot", and plop successive lasts/bottom papers on a customer's tracing/imprint to select either: 1) a last that already fits in bottom profile shape (swing), to build up to girth, or 2) to pick one to drastically modify in those rare cases when a scratch-made pair of custom lasts are indeed required. I'll copy off the ink imprint and tape it to serve as a template to the last bottom while rasping/grinding. While I enjoy fiddling with lasts, sculpting, re-modeling, etc., I admit I hate doing leather fittings, especially on these non-stick plastic lasts.

And I think Dan "El Jefe" Freeman was perhaps quoting John Henry Thornton with the three-legged stool analogy he gives in the intro to 'Textbook of Footwear Manufacture' --the 3 legs for him were: materials, methods, and intended purpose/function. When the forth leg, "fashion" is introduced, the stool can get mighty wobbly on uneven surfaces, and I tend to agree.

Finally, I'm sorry if any of my posts have sounded "preachy". You've been making boots successfully as long or longer as I have, and have developed your own method of fitting feet that works for you. I'm not suggesting you alter a thing. I have noticed over the decades we've known each other, you are very Teutonic! You like to reduce things neatly to "rules", systems, and formulas with lots of analytical math. I'm more "by eye" when it comes to things. As long as it slices, indeed, who cares how the knife's sharpened Image

That said, of course there is a need for precision on our work, and when communicating amongst ourselves some basic vocabulary. But let's not lose sight of the vastly divergent backgrounds here, nor the idiosyncrasies of the people, as far flung as we and those who trained us are, right round the world.
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Re: One "Last" Question

#1506 Post by dw »

Al,

Good post.

Where to begin? First off, I don't think you sound "preachy." Lasts are your Grail. I'd be a fool to be so cynical as to think your generous sharing of knowledge was preachy. Some things I just have a hard time getting my head around...not, I hope, because I am skeptical by nature but because I was trained and have proceeded differently.

For instance, on another forum I encounter a great deal of reservation about modeling a foot--last making--by build up with leather fittings as opposed to carving the last from a solid block of wood. The "add-on approach" versus the "take-off technique".

Leaving aside that all the old books speak about and give advice about how to apply "fitting's" to the last...in one sense, the add-on approach is essentially a "take off technique"...with a shortcut.

If I lay a last on a footprint and see that I need a build up, I add sufficient fittings to overcompensate both for the girth and the shape. Then I take off sufficient material from that fitting to blend it into the lines of the last and achieve the intended girth.

What if I started with a 2"x2"x4" block of beech or hornbeam instead of a last? What if I built up layer upon layer of Rendenbach outsoling until I had a lump that was 5"x5"x12"? What if I then ground/cut it into a shoe last? Is that the "add-on approach "or the "take off technique"? Does it matter? In either case it is not the material the last is made of that is important. It is the intelligence that is brought to bear shaping the material that determines the efficacy of the method and the suitability of the end product. that's the critical element/technique.

Yes, you're correct in asserting that a plastic last is kind of a monstrosity and that the build-ups don't stick very well, etc.. And those are just a few of the problems that plastic and leather present.

However, that's the way I was taught and that's what I've been working with for nearly 40 years. These problems are not insurmountable in the short term...and that is, IMO, usually sufficient for our purposes. But I think we have to face it, the the days of mass produced hornbeam lasts are gone forever. Like long staple linen or 8" boars bristles. We make do, we adapt...that or buy a Goodyear inseaming machine and a big roll of canvas gemming. Image

I admire your approach and I covet your library. But you ask which approach is better...I suspect it comes down to something like personal preference and whether lasts or shoes are your Grail quest.

I put a lot of money and time into modifying two lasts and sending them to Tippitt to scan. Probably over $1k before I/we ever got a turned last and bottom papers (another expense). Time I could have been making boots or shoes. I learned a lot. And I ended up with something I am pretty happy with--a last that I trust and which is, objectively, pretty neutral. A last that I can cut or build-up on to twist or swing or bunionize without doing any great or irreversible damage to the last--a last I will use again and again.

When I make a pair of shoes for a customer, I choose the last and I have the price of the pair. Period. The initial cost of modeling and scanning to prototype is old history although I suppose you could make a case that it ought to be depreciated or amortized into the price of each pair.

Lasts are tools...the most basic and critical tool it's true. But what if we had to make a new pair of lasting pincers every time we wanted to make a pair of shoes? or modify the handle shape of an old pair of generic whitchters and send them off to the foundry for duplication? The point is that, really...it doesn't cost me much to acquire the tools to make a pair of shoes for a new customer. And where the last falls short of expectations, I compensate...not with more money but with intelligence (hopefully).

And that, I think is a good thing. It is reason enough to not dismiss the value of fittings...even "extreme" fittings and even on a plastic last. If only because it frees me up to pursue my Grail quest--making beautiful(hopefully) shoes and boots.

As for "Teutonic" ...I prefer "Victorian." I feel like I am among friends when I crack open Swayland or Golding. I understand almost intuitively where they are coming from. I even speak/write in a more Victorian(formal) manner (especially when compared to the pidgeon English that the younger generations seem to prefer). How in the world did Sabbage come up with his Sectionizer?! Genius! But also math, formulas and...observation over a lifetime, I suspect. There are so many people in this Trade who too easily, in my opinion, miss or dismiss the value of the Victorian masters and all their gee-gaws, devices and insights.

All that said we have to play the cards we are dealt--too bad about long staple linen and 8" boars bristles and Swedish pitch.

Tight Stitches
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(Message edited by dw on December 06, 2010)

(Message edited by dw on December 06, 2010)

(Message edited by dw on December 06, 2010)
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Re: One "Last" Question

#1507 Post by das »

DW,

Glad I was taken as sounding "preachy".

"Add-On" vs. "Take-Off"--Indeed things have changed, no more long-staple hemp, etc. But when it comes to current lasts I'd cast this as more of "build-up" vs. "grind-down". If, as many of us, you have a run of lasts, plastic, all the same model/style in sequential sizes/widths, if you pull out the 9D and touch it to a sander, you've just spoiled your run. In my mind this is the incentive for "build-up", never "grind-down" for temporary customization. But that's for temporary customization. For full customization we can go further.

You've got your trusted lasts, I have mine. But don't be too envious of my "library", as it's not currently 100% accessible until I get another source to turn GFS/TLW files.

Hey, Victorian's fine--nobody's more a fan of the "dead guys" from centuries past than me, but like you said, these (methods, elaborate or simple) are merely tools to do a job. Sabbage was a "genius" perhaps, and all these systems have valuable insights embedded within them if we can understand the underlying principles behind them, but in the end it's a matter of which "tool" works for you, in your hand, etc. There're "Swedish" (Berg) pincers, Timmons pinchers, Whitcher pinchers, and so on, just to pull the uppers down and knock in a tack with. Then there're "London" hammers, "French" hammers, "Swiss" hammers, and "Crispin" hammers, just to beat down soles/heels and drive pegs/tacks with and pane up sole edges. Why so much variety? First, tool-makers saw a market ("Merchandizing! Merchandizing!&#34Image, but some workers prefer one to another out of habit or tradition (like regional tool styles). I fear there's no one-size-fits-all "tool" here, or any need for one-size-fits-all approach.

My hat's off to ya if you want to build-up a pointed 6AA toe-biter into a "swing king" 8 D with a chisel toe, sticking leather onto a plastic last, but if "Mr. Smith" will stand the price, why not just tweak one 8 D orphan, send it off to ____, have it scanned and get a pair back that will need minimal fiddling with to fit him?
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Re: One "Last" Question

#1508 Post by das »

Opps, that should have been NOT "taken as sounding...." Al
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Re: One "Last" Question

#1509 Post by dw »

Al,

It's a quandary, Al...because on one hand you do have the library...and that combined with the knowledge, time, and experience that went into it, makes it very enviable.

On the other hand:
but if "Mr. Smith" will stand the price, why not just tweak one 8 D orphan, send it off to ____, have it scanned and get a pair back that will need minimal fiddling with to fit him?


What do I have into a pair of lasts for a customer doing it my way as opposed to doing it your way? Money-wise, and even time-wise, I mean?

I suspect my current outlay for any particular customer is 25% or even less than if I were to it the way you propose.

Again, I am in no way dismissing your approach. I admire it immensely. But having said that I think that there is a very specific and very useful set of insights and methods that arise from having a run of "neutral" lasts and fitting the foot from that base. A set that in many instances can "pass" for the more rigorous approach.

One of the things I wanted to bring into my thoughts above was that when I start with a last and build it up, I am forced to respect curves and radii and proportions that are not all that obvious when cutting from a block of wood and, additionally, I have a reasonable chance of ending up with the similar cross-sections in the forepart, instep, and backpart.

I think it all comes down to knowing your last...

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Re: One "Last" Question

#1510 Post by luckyduck »

On a little less theoritical note...Don't get all caught up in this and forget to put the little hole in the last heel so you can pull it from the boot.

Luckily I was doing 3 pair at a time and when picking up the 2nd pair of lasts noticed that none of them had holed drilled. [img]http://www.thehcc.org/forum/images/old_smilies/sad.gif"%20ALT="sad[/img]

Ok, back to re-lasting that first pair.

Paul
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Re: One "Last" Question

#1511 Post by chuck_deats »

Paul,
Been there, Done that. One of those short wood screw eye-bolts from the hardware store worked for me. Get one as large as you think you can get away with. Fact of the business, it is now my standard procedure. Easier than trying to work a hook into the hole.
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Re: One "Last" Question

#1512 Post by romango »

I'm embarking on the making of hiking boots (since I seem to get a lot of request for this here in the Pacific Northwest).

Assuming I am using my own last which fits purrrrfectly, should I add a shover to the cone and/or straighten the heel line at the top? These will be an ankle boot something like this:

http://www.zappos.com/allen-edmonds-cascade-brown
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Re: One "Last" Question

#1513 Post by ccs »

I'm thinking about trying to make some ballroom shoes - split-sole weltless oxfords that fit like a glove and are about as substantial - to correct a variety of toe shape and workmanship problems in commercial offerings. Tearing down a few old pairs reveals what looks to be a simplified version of traditional construction (last and then glue on the suede sole), so they seem a reasonable starting project once I come up with an appropriate last.

In my searches of previous messages, I noticed someone had contemplated filling a shoe with expanding spray can foam, probably sprayed into a plastic bag liner. Has anyone actually tried this? I'm thinking the expansion might help the shoes achieve the shape they normally have on my feet, vs. the slightly collapsed shape they have when removed. I'd probably do it in two stages or with some kind of block to permit removal. It almost shouldn't matter if the volumetric shape deforms a little as long as the circumference is captured, since the end product isn't that much more than a leather sock with a heel on it.

I also thought about filling the bag with plaster, but I'm worried the heat of curing might damage the shoes - have to use a fairly new pair as the old ones are too deformed to use as a starting point for reshaping.

My other thought is to do a plaster bandage foot cast blocked on the heel piece I ripped off an old pair, but if I do that I'm going to have figure out the foot-to-last transformation from scratch.

(Message edited by ccs on January 07, 2011)
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Re: One "Last" Question

#1514 Post by romango »

Chris,

I got my start making dance shoes and, as you did, tore apart several pairs of my old shoes. I have not filled old shoes with plaster but I have done foot casts and even made my own wood lasts.

My advise is that you skip all this stuff and buy yourself a pair of lasts and sand or leather them out to fit your feet. This will be way faster in the end. There are several places you can get used lasts for ~ $20.

The glove-like character of the dance shoe is strictly a function of the weight leathers you use for the upper, insole and sole. Also, thin or absent toe puff.

You can check out the dance shoes I make now on my web site www.romangoshoes.com. Although I started with very glove-like shoes, I found I preferred a little more robust shoe. I will speculate that people tend to like the glove -like shoes because they wil deform to fit their feet better. Once you have good fitting shoes, this is not so important. Others may just like the "floor feel".
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Re: One "Last" Question

#1515 Post by gshoes »

Chris,

Can you post pictures of the shoes that you are trying to duplicate?

I poured a fiberglass resin mixture inside a pair of shoes that I was trying to duplicate and that did not work well at all. And that doesn't really expand like foam. I think that you need something rigid to pour your positive casting material into. .

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Re: One "Last" Question

#1516 Post by gshoes »

Chris,

I just saw Rick's advice. I would have to agree with Rick also having made the casts and made the wooden lasts. It was a learning experience but if you want to get down to making shoes, just get a last. I wish that I would have taken others advice years before and just altered a ready made last.

Geri
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Re: One "Last" Question

#1517 Post by ccs »

I'm not really understanding why reshaping a last designed for somewhat different movement goals and which probably doesn't match the size or shape of my foot is going to be preferable to starting with a duplicate of my foot or a plug cast in a shoe that's tolerable (if not durable), but I'd like to learn.

Six years ago when I first contemplated this I picked up a couple of roles of plaster bandage, which I just used to make trial casts - of course the second one turned out better than the first.

I've had shoes of varying stiffness, but find the softest ones are the best for extended competitively-athletic ballroom practice as they permit more precise focusing of the weight onto a specific part of the foot. It's important that the transition from sole to upper be quite smooth at least on the inner edge of the toe, and split sole designs seem to hold together a lot better than those with even the stiffness of the suede sole material running across the arch.
12651.jpg
A variety of commercially made ballroom shoes

(Message edited by ccs on January 07, 2011)

(Message edited by ccs on January 07, 2011)
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Re: One "Last" Question

#1518 Post by ccs »

Rick,

Your tango shoes are beautiful! Tango people seem to really invest in making statements with footwear... in ballroom we view them more as simply functional, and often of necessity disposable.

I think if you line up a quality street shoe, a tango shoe, a ballroom shoe and a jazz shoe, they'd be an equally spaced gradient of decreasing stiffness and weight. The grain leather shoe in the picture will easily fold in half at the arch.
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Re: One "Last" Question

#1519 Post by dw »

Perhaps counter-intuitively, you cannot duplicate the shape or the size of your foot by pouring plaster into a shoe that fits.

What you're actually duplicating is the foot size, shape and movement through the entire range a footstep. This includes, for instance, when the weight of the body is concentrated on the lateral side and perhaps distorting/stretching the leather laterally as well as when the foot is pushing off the first toe and weight and volume are reduced everywhere else within the shoe.

Etc..

Beyond that, for a truly good fit the a shoe ought to be slightly snug initially, especially around the heel seat and allowed to open up and settle with the weight of the body and movement of the foot. The foot will stretch the leather just slightly to accommodate itself and in the process, it will hit, and be constrained by, the natural limits of residual stretch in the leather.

And although dance shoes typically have a fiberboard insole, a good shoe will have a leather insole that will take an impression of the foot such that a footbed will be created--one that is dependent upon heel height as well as the initial fit of the shoe itself.

All those factors and constraints and potentials have already undergone a "phase-change," if you will; already reached their limits and already been maxed out. When you try to plaster cast the inside of the shoe, you incorporate all the "excesses" as well. The resulting shoe will not fit--it is already too big and can only get bigger and sloppier.

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Re: One "Last" Question

#1520 Post by dw »

Short addendum...casting the inside of a shoe is not the same as casting the foot and especially with dance shoes (which are thin and light) you might as well cast the inside of a sock.

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Re: One "Last" Question

#1521 Post by ccs »

While a ballroom shoe is almost as un-opinionated about shape as a sock, it's doesn't have the "fits size 8 to 13" stretchiness of one. That's why I was thinking an expanding foam, essentially to capture the dimensions of the lasted pattern piece.

I agree that a plug cast in a shoe that has been broken in would probably be slightly over size in most areas - but then that might be a reasonable starting point for subtractive shaping. One cast from a foot wrapping would probably be under sized and need build up. Given the thinness of them, I even gave some consideration to doing a slipper cast of the shoe with a foot in it (particularly if I was making something stiff enough that getting exactly the right balance of twist in the last would matter more)

In effect, there are four classes of problems in commercially made shoes I'm trying to deal with (a brand that's okay in one area fails in another): unsuitable outline of the sole piece in the toes (which constrains the adaptability of the upper), tightness across the joints which leads to the uppers tearing, misshapen and/or brittle heel counters, and finally just having something where I can choose materials for durability or cost and make any of the parts I need for ongoing maintenance.

(Message edited by ccs on January 08, 2011)
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Re: One "Last" Question

#1522 Post by romango »

Chris,

You can totally make a last by pouring plaster in a shoe or casting a foot. If you have a foot cast, you will need to make it more of a shoe shape. This is harder than taking the shoe-shaped last and adjusting it to the dimensions of your feet.

In the case of pouring something into a shoe, you can use plaster or a product like Smoothcast 300 from Smooth-on.com. You cannot use expanding foam. This stuff gets way to hot when curing and produces a substantial outward pressure. Also, I've not found one in the US that is dense enough when cured.

In any case, you'll probably destroy the shoe in the process and end up with a less than nice shaped last made out of difficult to handle, messy and /or expensive materials.

Been there, done that. Never again!
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Re: One "Last" Question

#1523 Post by dearbone »

Pouring plaster into a shoe will copy the shape of the last used to make that shoe but not completely,The back and the cone on the last are make higher,if the cast shoe is a worn one some distortions will appear under the big and the small toes and some uneven surface on the top of the cast which can be sanded/corrected,Making shoes this way is the last resort when one has no last,but it is doable for light cement work,A cast taken from a shoe with heel on is already inclined with known heel height which is that of the shoe cast.

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Re: One "Last" Question

#1524 Post by ccs »

Rick,

I was thinking home supply store spray foam would produce less heat than solid urethane plastic (a lot less mass of reactants anyway) - someone was commenting that the urethane plastic was close to melting stx socks. I hadn't been thinking of using the foam plug as a last, but only as an intermediate positive model.
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Re: One "Last" Question

#1525 Post by dw »

We all start with pouring plaster. Forty years ago I worked with an orthopedic shoemaker for a short period of time...short enough that I really didn't take much away from the experience except how to cast the foot and make a "last" from the result.

But the thing I remember from my early days is that the shoemaker I worked with had skills and experience in the extensive shaping and sizing of the resultant cast needed to produce a workable last. And that's no small thing.

I might add that my wife and I have taken lessons and been dancing for near onto 20 years...mostly social ballroom and latin. I know what a dance shoe looks like and, more importantly, what they feel like. And to tell the truth I will take a decent, well made man's dress shoe over a commercially made dance shoe in a NY second. And yes, I recognize that I won't get the "leg lines" and so forth that are achievable in a dance shoe but I will be comfortable...even if a passing couple accidentally steps on the side of my foot.

To bring it back around, however...it might be worth noting that most of us who start with plaster, eventually go to turned lasts. And never go back.

It begs the question doesn't it: Why do you suppose none of us go back?

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(Message edited by dw on January 08, 2011)
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