The Crispin Colloquy

Another quick question...

I did a little experiment to get familiar with using topline tape. I noticed that if you sew only one line around the topline, the tape doesn't get caught by the stitching. So what good does it do?

I'm going to use it, but maybe there's something I'm missing? All I know is I don't want it to be so close to the edge that when I trim the liner I'm exposing tape at the same time--that's a recipe for "fuzzies," if you ask me.

Cut out my uppers this morning. Skived all parts and turned the vamp and toe cap and stitched them together. Already thinking about Derbys.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

DW,

Thanks for the support or was that just so we don't go away and leave you with half finished shoes.

I always put my topline tape under the fold so it is in place and never gets seen, but if you put it just below the topline it should be fine. You should realistically catch it in so maybe it was put a bit too low. Try placing it 2mm down, once the sewing has been done and you have trimmed the lining, hammer the topline which will help to cover any tape that may show.

Of course you realise that we only do oxfords don't you?

Tim

Tim,

Thanks.

Why do you think I'm asking so many questions? If you guys decide to go on vacation I might have to do some real work.

So...here's another one...I've turned my quarters and am closing them,. I decided to put a little tab on the back--you know what I mean...it comes out of the middle of the backseam and lays off to the inside and, at the same time, is turned over the topline of the inside quarter.

Well, I think I went about this backwards...I closed the backseam and am now trying to position the tab and close it. But wouldn't it work better if I positioned, closed and stitched the tab and then closed the backseam? Seems like it would be less likely to spring open just under the tab.

This is just my proof shoe so I can make a mistake or two...that's what it's for--to iron out these little problems but I'd appreciate you guys' thoughts on this.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

DW,

Are you doing a dog tail tab? If you can post a picture or diagram it would help. I would close the backseam and then lay the tab across and stitch it. Don't do any folding near the seam until after you have stitched the tab so your stitching can run over the topline and out of sight. Well, that is if I am answering the right question.

Tim

Tim,

Aw, heck! Now you've done it!

OK...I'll post a photo (just for the camera practice) but you have to promise not to think too badly of this...remember, this is a practice shoe. I know (now) that I should have skived the lower edge of the dog tail. I think the dog tail should be a little shorter and maybe a hair narrower. And I rubbed off a little of the colour when turning the backseam.

I don't think I will stitch on either side of the backseam on the actual pair. I put in a backseam tape after closing and thought I ought to stitch it in. But I'm not sure it's not a little too busy. What do you think? What's the expectation on a dress oxford?

I did it the way you described above, but stitching the tab on a flatbed is a little aawkward. That's how I did it and it came out OK but I just thought that it would stitch better before the back was closed.


Anyway, I'm learning...and that's the very best part!!


And it's not the derbys I'm really worried about...it's where in the world do you find a gimping machine or attachment or tool?


Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

DW,

I don't mind the two rows of stitching but if you don't want them there don't put them in. Really I think it is what you want to do. If you put backseam tape in and glue it, it will probably be ok. There should be no pressure on it once you have finished lasting.

You are right about the dog tail, it appears to dip down a bit and needs to be a bit more upright as it goes up to the lasting edge but there is no rule about that, it comes under design. I would not normally bother skiving that bottom edge. I don't think it matters. It is facing down and will not be noticeable. Once you have glued the tab in place you just invert the quarters.

I once saw a gimping tool in a flea market in London but didn't know what it was and it wasn't there when I went back. Just use pinking shears, cut with the point of the inverted v on the raw edge and make sure you have allowed an extra 3mm for the gimping. You can of course cut it from a nett line but you lose roughly 3mm that way. Check on scrap.

Tim

Hmmm, was that meant to be an invitation to list all the things I don't like?
The Internet may not be large enough a place to hold that list


The country club idea where folks have to pay their respects to the current (or oldest) poobah sounds interesting. I still have a ways to go to get on top so I think we should wait a while but I like the thinking behind it.....


Now on a slightly more serious note:
I take off about 1/3 rd of the thickness from the edge of the tail and run it past a lighter to eliminate any fuss and give it a firmer appearance. Small detail, don't sweat it.
I do close the back seam and than the tail and like Tim, I sew the dog tail down and than fold the edge. In fact I fold the edges up to 1 inch from the back, both quarters, attach the quarters, sew the tail and fold the rest of the edge. I do not lay may tape in the fold as I hand skive. With a machine skive I can see how you can create a nice “channel” to lay the tape in but hand skived I would be afraid the fold will not be tight enough.

It is important to have your top line tape sewn somewhere to secure it. If you are making a saddle shoe you will have a cross seam at the top of your facings. Make sure that seam catches the tape and lay it close to the top of the closing line so that most of your stitches will just catch the tape. Don't worry to much about the few stitches that may miss the tape.

Tim, how much do you add for your folding allowance? I add 4 mm for most leather except some very heavy work boot leathers and than I usually do not fold.

Rob

Rob,

With regard to top line tape...I am not sure about putting the tape under the fold. I think to do that you need AP cement and I have had trouble with the sewing machine skipping when I use AP on a seam line.

When I look at top shelf footwear I usually see one line only around the topline esp. on oxfords. If the tape is not very nearly to the folded edge, it will not be causght. And if it is in a position where it can get caught, then trimming the lining either reveals the tape or the lining stands so proud of the folded edge that it can be seen from the highway.

One way you're in trouble and the other way you're skewered.

What's the solution?

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

DW,

Little trick I learned doing repair. If you have to stitch through AP cement, take a rag and spray with WD40, rub along the needle and repeat as needed to keep the needle free from cement gumming up. Make sure your rag does not touch the leather or it will leave a stain!

When machine skiving you can create a channel of consistent thickness to lay the tape in,
when hand skiving you create a slant that you can not put a tape in and make it disapear
(blue would be the tape)
In a machine skived channel you can lay the self adhesive tape in and close with rubber cement. That will hold just fine till you stitch it down. It creates a very clean look that you can not achieve when you hand skive.
The next best thing is laying it close to where you stitch and know a couple of stitches will be hits, a couple misses, just enough of each not to get in trouble or get skewered.
That's the best I have to offer. Tim, do you have any better options?

Rob

DW:

The gimping attachment or tool is a challenge to find, to say the least! The closers I know in the UK have little gimping 'needles' that they use in a flatbed machine -- I believe Janne Melkersson posted a pic a few years ago. It goes into the machine in lieu of a needle and essentially cuts one 'v' at a time -- sort of like you use a needle to cut the inserts for your uppers, but instead of a broken needle this needs to be specially made. Alas, the guy who used to make them at the company Janne referenced has retired, so we're out of luck there. Perhaps Dick Anderson could make one, though it may not be entirely within his range of skills -- seems one would have to quite accurately grind a bladed notch (if that makes sense) into the tip. I have seen gimping machines from a shoe factory, but I've certainly never seen one for sale on e-bay or anywhere else. There are occasionally the cranked leather gimping machines (akin to the Singer ones for fabric) on e-bay, but I don't know how fine/small the pattern of the cut is, nor also whether they can be maneuvered around curves very well -- however, if you figure this out, please do let me know!

Regarding the sewing of the tongue, the closer I observed sewed it in last, after mounting and sewing the lining. He sewed it in by sewing through the upper and lining right next to/virtually under the seam where the vamp meets the facings (/quarters?). Then he did the handstitch that Rob talks about -- I believe this is to prevent the leather from ripping where the facings meet, rather than to attach the tongue.

For an oxford, he sews the entire upper, then the lining, and mounts and sews these two completed pieces together along the top-line. As with Rob's pic, the vamp/quarter line in the liner is advanced about 1/3" toward the toe to eliminate overlap of the seams between the upper and the lining. Also, for the back seam, the seam in the lining is moved about 1/3" off-center (medially, if I remember correctly), so that the back seams on the upper and the lining are not at the same exact location.

Lance

DW and Rob,

Can't we skip all the work and just go to the party?

Rob I always hand skived but had a roll of machine skive tape that I used for topline tape. It was very thin and strong, one lot looked just like dental floss.

I think your last paragraph "The next best thing is laying it close to where you stitch and know a couple of stitches will be hits, a couple misses, just enough of each not to get in trouble or get skewered. " is pretty much as I suggested too.

What is AP cement? With any cement you should leave it to dry before folding. You should only get problems if you do it wet, and then you will get "needle clog" (new term).

I always use 5mm for folding allowance. 4mm was for machine folding because of the way the machine was set. I don't think it matters too much but the extra 1mm may help with a newbie. I always used 20mm/3/4" lasting allowance too. I found that sometimes 15mm was just a bit too little.

Tim

DW,

When you mentioned “double seam, one in top of the other” in the lasting post, do you mean the backseam of the lining quarters and the backseam of the upper quarters? If so, not to worry as the counter will “absorb” the unevenness that the seam may cause.
The backstrap from Golding, do you place it on the lining in between lining and counter or in between lining and foot? If it goes on the foot side, turning it flesh side out will give you a little more grip on the foot. It will add extra bulk and could take away from a sleek, refined look of the shoe. It'll be up to you to find the correct balance.

I was thinking about “crimping” both quarter lining out of one piece of leather. I know now that that's not what you were doing but wouldn't that be a neat look, I should try that some time. Thanks for the idea.

BTW, this is out of place and out of sequence but Jenny if your reading here, turning the back part of the lining flesh side to the foot will give you a little more grip on the shoe. I know that's a question you had a week or so ago and I didn't think of it than as we were discussing changes to the last.


Tim, Party time? Count me in
The amount you take in the back lining is somewhat different from what I do, the diagram is in this post. I take off 3 mm off the top of each of the quarters, 4 half way down and 5 at the heel seat.
I take it you take in each of the quarters by the amount you indicated?

The topline tape I've gotten my hands on lately is thicker than I like it but still the best I can find and strong. It's just shy of 1mm thick and it does have a tendency to show.
AP cement: All Purpose cement. The stuff that unlike rubber cement has a way of interfering with your sewing. If it is really dry you probably won't have a problem but you will have to let it dry for at least 24 hrs. That's just not practical the way I assemble my uppers.

Fully agree that the 15 mm lasting allowance at times is a little shy. When working in the industry the 5 mm on each shoe adds up but for hand work it's better to have it than to waste an upper because you don't have enough lasting allowance.

Lance,
The closer you observed and put the hand stitch last, do you mean that he included the tong in that hand stitch? The seam is indeed meant to prevent the ripping of the leather. I never attached that stitch through the tong as well but it does make sense to do as it has more material to distribute the pressure over.


OK, it's Saturday, beautifully weather out and the “Honey Do” list is waiting impatiently. Got to go now (and hide)

Rob

Rob,

The amount I take in is not too far from what you do, I am not sure what you mean by "I take it you take in each of the quarters by the amount you indicated? ". Looking at your patterns it looks like we do the same.

With a laceup shoe It is probably not that important to have a reverse counter lining but it certainly wouldn't hurt.

You shouldn't need to crimp the lining as the stretch in the lining is used to take the wrinkles out when you last up and you force the last into the back of the upper.

I reckon you need to get rid of the AP cement. Use neoprene or rubber cement.

Tim

Lance,

That's the situation as I see it, too. I've been toying with the idea of having some sort of attachment made for my 31-20. But I wish I didn't have to do all the R&D from scratch.


Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

Rob, Tim, all...

This is in no way a tutorial. It may be that someone will be able to use it or parts of it as a tutorial. But I provide these images simply to illustrate an experiment I carried out and in response to a request for images.

The first photo is of my quarter lining pattern. You can see the original line of the heel curve (in red) superimposed over the lining pattern, and the amount of reduction. This is just to establish that we are on the same page


The second is a rough cut piece of lining stretched over the back of the last. I did not know if I would use this, and made no attempt to hit a given size. As it turned out, I ended up using it although I regretted not making it a little taller so that I would have a tab above the heel to tack into during lasting.


The third image is another angle showing the centerline drawn in at the back and the heelseat line.


Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

This fourth image is that same piece of lining, taken off the last and folded--showing that the curve remains in the folded leather.


The fifth photo shows the uncut backstrap superimposed over the quarter lining patter and aligned with the curve of the pattern.


The sixth photo is of the quarter lining pattern with the proposed backstrap pattern drawn on and a lap allowance added as well.


Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

The seventh and eighth photos are of the finished backstrap, cut and sewn into the quarter lining. As you can see, I did turn the backstrap fleshside out. I might cut for a tighter fiber structure on the final go-round.



If y'all see anything that might pose problems or is just too uncouth to tolerate let me know.


Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

Also another question...back to closing the linings...

I would like to mount the quarter lining over the vamp lining but obviously I can't do that in the area of the tongue. Can anyone provide me with a work-around (hopefully elegant) or a solution to what I see as the last major conundrum?

I know how to do this with derbys but with the curved vampline on the oxford I don't know where (or if) the same technique is applied.


Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

BTW,

I appreciate the plans for a celebration of my "coming out" . I'm always up for a party especially if it involves a liberal amount of malt whiskey...preferably Lagavulin.

But it may be a bit premature...I haven't even gotten a pair of shoes on the last yet.

Beside, I think it would be much more appropriate if we had the celebration when you fellers finished a pair of boots! Don'tcha think?


Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

DW,

A couple of things, one is that you don't need to pre form lining leather normally, it is stretchy and will normally accomodate the back curve if pushed into place and lasted.

Second, the reverse counter lining should really reach forward to about half the length of the quarter so the seams are out of the way, you may get some discomfort from the seam at the heel like that.
You will need to slit the quarter linings as on page 113 of my book and page 115 shows the linings fitted and ready for sewing if that is what you want to do. It is probably not essential that you sew, but may be safer. I think that will help. If you are going to make a bag lining and then fit the whole thing to the upper, you just go ahead and close the lining all at once and attach the tongue to it wherever you mark it to go. I don't use that method any more as it is more difficult to close the quarter linings to the quarters than the using the method outlined in the book.

I didn't realise we were having the party for you, I thought that we were having the party and as trainee you have to carry the drinks.

I have made boots but not with a fitted stiffener like you use. I will try to find a photo for you.

Tim

DW,

The tongue just sits on the inside surface of the finished lining but because the foot pushes into the upper this is not a problem. It doesn't look particularly pretty but as it is away from the foot during wear, it doesn't matter.

I used to tack the leading edge of the tongue and then fold it forward out of the way when I closed the lining to the upper and then pull it up into place once the trimming has been done, that is when the stitch along the vamp line holds it securely.

Tim
Tim

Tim,

Good info. Thanks. I need to get a little further and I need to digest this too. But on the final pair the reverse counter lining will be further forward, for sure.

I don't mind carrying drinks...I'll do it all day...long as you fellers are providing the whiskey. At $80.00/litre (that's US $'s) it's a little too rich for a trainee!


Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

DW,

Oh well, there goes the party, I figured that as an induction into the Oxford Hall of Fame (hereafter known as OHF) the trainee would be providing the drinks and not participating. That is where the Grand Poobah comes in. What do you reckon Rob?

Tim

Tim, DW and all those looking forward to DW's “coming out” party...

I'm quite upset by the idea that the party would be off. The way I figure it we should have a party to prepare for the party we'll have once DW has a shoe on the last. A coming out party of sorts where DW would be lucky to be able to serve the drinks once he's through he OHF induction ceremony.....

I do think that DW's would be good place to have the party, kind of in the middle for both Tim and myself, give or take a couple of thousand miles. Besides that, I'm sure his liquor cabinet holds more treasures than we, as humble shoemakers can even dream off.

We'll have subsequent parties for both Tim's and my own boots, again at DW's. Why waste a perfectly good opportunity for a party by combining so many milestones?

This whole thing about mixing up boots and shoes does have me thinking about starting on some boots this winter. Once Bill's new flame, Olga is up and running I was planning on trying it out by ordering myself a pair of boot lasts. Subsequently I would need some serious tutoring to turn those lasts into anything more than doorstops. Hey, if you want another party you'll have to earn it.

Rob

You guys cover a lot of ground quickly as I was working on my Honey Do list.
Tim, what I wanted to know is do you take up to 7mm off each or the quarters, or 7mm total, 3 and a half mm off each. You answered that, 7mm of each quarter it is.
The AP cement is not ideal and should be avoided when possible but sometimes you simply have no choice and than the WD40 or any other lubricating oil on the needle works wonders.

DW, you don't set up a standard pattern to work off, do you? Consider it as you can draw your pattern on heel height and it makes it easier to see any potential hick ups as we can see the pieces in context.

The first picture does establish we're on the same page.

In the second picture, the lasts looks very much like a boot last. Tim, do you have any experience making shoes on a boot last? It's my understanding that the boot last does not turn into the foot as much at the back height and the cone on the instep comes up steeper. Would DW have to leave the facings open more than you would do on a shoe last to get them to close securely on the foot?

If you set out the turned lining on your pattern, size wise you set it up as 1/8th last length at the topline and than either staight down if you draw your standard pattern on heel height, or ¼ last length at the heel seat.

If it were me I would make the curves of the vamp line less sharp. When you are going to last you will pull the lining down in the waist, putting a lot of pressure on the horizontal seam, if that seam was more oriented to the pull direction you lessen the risk of a rip out. You would position the upper line like that for ecstatic reasons.


Clarify for me:

I would like to mount the quarter lining over the vamp lining

When you picture the finished shoe you want the vamp lining to lay in top of the quarter lining to prevent the foot from catching on it when slipping the shoe on. What is your reason for wanting to do it the other way around? Just curiosity.
I think Tim addressed the tong position and placement.
What were you envisioning that made you think you could not figure it out with the lining? Again, just curious on how you were approaching this as a bootmaker.

Rob