Lasting

[chuck_deats]

Jenny,
The fabric store will have seam binding tape or gros grain ribbon which do not stretch. Do not get bias tape which will stretch. I would guess about 1/2" wide would be plenty. Don't know what to do with an unlined shoe, except maybe, some sort of cap bead.

Chuck

[frank_jones]

Jenny Fleishman

You ask how do you keep it from stretching? As you have discovered this is a particular problem in women’s shoes, especially pumps. This is partly because pumps are usually made from lightweight leathers but also because the topline can to stretch a a little when you take them on and off.

You need a specially produced product that is called, surprise - surprise, topline tape. It is very narrow indeed (less than a millimeter) and so thin you can put it inside a folded topline of very fine leathers without any noticeable extra thickness.

As you imply, your local finder did not know what you are talking about. Shoe repairers never use it, so the finders don’t stock it. Also, most hand shoemakers make men’s footwear, or at least the less delicate styles and they can be made without using topline tape.

Avon tape (the major supplier) was bought out a few years ago by Biltrite.

The Biltrite Corporation
51 Sawyer Road
P.O. Box 9045
Waltham, MA 02454-9045
Phone: 781-647-1700

There is no mention of Avon on the Biltrite web site but somebody at the address above can probably give you a number to call. You may have to buy a 50 meter roll but it is not too expensive, so perhaps you can sell it on to other people on the Colloquy a meter as a time.

One point to watch when fitting the tape. It must go right around the topline of a pump, so that it forms a continuous band. Where you join the ends, overlap them for about half an inch and make sure the topline stitching goes through both layers.

Frank Jones
frank.jones@shoemaking.com

[relferink]

Jenny, on the skiving of the lasting margin. I rough more than I skive. Cut off the excess material that bulges up so much that you would have to skive it. At that point it serves no purpose in holding the shoe together since it's all bulged up. If you decide to use the wiping strip (and I think you should since it seems to work very well) you will have enough material to hold the shoe together.
Often the area with overlay is glued down anyway by the to box or heel counter so don't worry to much about it coming loose. If there is nothing that glues it down be a little more careful. Skive the overlay areas starting about an eight to a quarter in from the side. It should be fairly smooth there anyway since you can skive the upper that is going to be part of the lasting margin a little more aggressive and have less of a bulge in the transition.
On a cemented construction I do rough the grain up all the way to the edge. If you do not glue the edge very well it will start coming loose there. Once it starts pealing you will loose your sole (no pun intended ), it's just a matter of time. Are you using some type of welt on the shoe? Sometimes with a cemented construction it's easier to use one and not have to worry to much about the line you rough up to.

Frank,

Thanks for the tip on Biltrite Corp. They are in my neck of the woods and I did not even know they existed. It'll be some time before I need some more tape but I'll keep them in mind.

Rob

[jenny_fleishman]

re top line tape...Since my last post on that, I've found out that shoedo.com has it available in 3 widths in reasonably sized rolls.

Rob, I don't know how to welt, or understand too much about it. I am under the impression that if you use a welt, it sticks out a little past the shoe upper, and is stitched onto a sole or midsole, and is visible. For dance shoes, I don't want this kind of appearance. Also don't know how to do it! I have gotten no instruction in it, just in the stitchdown method, and, from the Wilson Gracey tape, the cement down method.

If I am wrong about how a welted shoe looks, please clarify. Thanks!

Jenny

[relferink]

Jenny,

The welt adds to the width of the shoe but it gives you a “safety margin”. Other than stitching it on you can also glue it in place. You can certainly go without but do rough the grain all the way to where your sole stops to keep it from separating. I'm not familiar with Wilson Gracey's tape but based on the posts her I'm sure you'll figure it out.

Rob

[jenny_fleishman]

I am going to attempt to make a lap jack. Is there a recommended height you want the last at in relationship to your lap? For instance, do you want the ankle side of the last nestled into your lap, or do you want it a foot above your lap, or is it strictly personal preference?

Also, is it usual to have the last be able to swivel on the jack stand, or does this make it less stable when you are working? Would making it not be able to turn, but instead turn the whole stand when needed, be better?

Jenny

[dw]

Jenny,

The forepart of the last should rest upon your knee. The base of the lap jack is gripped between your feet at all times. A 3/8" to 1/2" rubber pad is put on the bottom of the jack (usually a piece of neoprene soling).

Yes, the last will swivel. Not a big problem unless you are inseaming. Then I use an inseaming jack...available from Thornapple Rive Machine Works--ie. Dick Anderson.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[jenny_fleishman]

DW, the materials I have purchased to make the stand will result in being able to lift the last straight up off the stand, which looks like this is the case in the one you posted a picture of (as opposed to having threads and having to screw the last on and off the stand). The stand will be considerably different in construction than probably anything you've seen, but will NOT involve one of my favorites, duct tape

Is it advisable to be able to tilt the stand as opposed to attaching it to a wide base that would keep it perpendicular to the floor?

Jenny

[dw]

Jenny,

Is it advisable to be able to tilt the stand as opposed to attaching it to a wide base that would keep it perpendicular to the floor?

I think it is, but I've seen lots of them made of pipe and mounted on tire rims, etc.. I like to be able to tilt the whole lap jack and swivel the last--I don't know what the point of a lap jack would be...at least for me, since I also own three inseaming jacks... if I didn't have that flexibility.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[gordy]

Jenny wrote: "Is it advisable to be able to tilt the stand as opposed to attaching it to a wide base that would keep it perpendicular to the floor? "

If you want to tilt it it sounds like a good use for an old car prop/drive shaft.

Gordon

[jenny_fleishman]

I am watching a DVD of an orthopedic shoemaker. Instead of soaking the upper before lasting, he sprays only the outer leather with "shoe stretch." He says not to spray the lining because it is already very flexible and might tear. Any opinions on this? Also, what do you think he is using for "shoe stretch"? Thanks.

Jenny

[dw]

There is very definitely a school of thought out there that thinks that a mere spritzing or even dry lasting is the way to go. But I'm not one of those. The older technique...the one most tried and true...is to thoroughly wet the leather before lasting. This is because leather is a "plastic" medium. Wetting makes it malleable. It will take and hold a shape if it is wet and then dries to that shape. It will also want to return to its original state if it is stretched without being allowed to dry out from a malleable state.

You'll hear arguments both ways. Some of them good on both sides. You have to make your own decision on this one...I tend to think it's personal preference...and maybe a little bit of impatience.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[ttex]

Jenny

As DW says it's a matter of taste for many people.

I do both. If the uppers are thick! then I wet them completly other wise I use water on the bottom side of the uppers and not the liner. If the last has been adjusted so much that that the uppers needs to be stretched farther then we use the shoe stretch. It loosens the fibers so the skin can stretch more.

If you let the uppers stay on the last for 3-4 days then they will be dry. (in most cases. Is the last varnished or not!)

You'll find that alot of the thinner skins will develop water spot and the hirch klæber will bleed through on some if they are to wet. This is one of the reasons I use just a little bit.

The reason for not using anything on the liner is that type of skin could easily break or the dark color of the upper could come through to the liner and you end up with a light colored liner with black spots.

I would think that the norm for the boot maker is what I call thick skin. The liner for boots is different to. The liner on my boots is a thicker veg tan.


I hope this helps
CW

[jenny_fleishman]

Coming down the home stretch on making my lasts, I hope. When I get to the actual shoemaking, I want to add depth to the shoe so there is room for a custom molded insole. I am thinking I want to add 1/8 inch in the forefoot and 1/4" at the heel. I know it would be easier to do 1/4" all the way, but I fear the vamp area would look too bulky.

So, my plan is to use one layer of 6-7 oz veg tan from the treadline back to the heel, skived so it blends toward the treadline, and a second layer for the whole length of the sole. Perhaps cement the two pieces together and tack them onto the last with a few tacks.

Any other suggestions, or are there any pitfalls in doing this I might not be aware of? Thanks.

Jenny

[ttex]

Jenny

What you are talking about is more or less what we do over here when the need arises. Sometimes we use and extra insole that is taken out when the shoe is finished and pulled off the last. If you have pegged the shoes you'll have to pull the extra off the pegs. I just finished a pair like this before we went on vacation. It was because the person swells alot and needs room to adjust.

the extra insole can be a way to make the sole seam more narrow. BTW you cut both insoles to the shape of the last and tweak it to give it the shape that you want. I normally tack both on and cut them at once. Because you are working with two layer you will have to give them more time to dry on the last and maybe some longer staples to staple both layers on to retain the shape of the last.

You will have to talk to Rob now that he is helping you with the inserts, but 0.25 inches on the back seams like alot. It all depends on how round you have made the last on the bottom, how deep the heel cup is etc. A flat factory last/shoe needs more thickness in the insert so the heel or other bone have room.

If you do it the way you are talking about then cement the two together so you can create a smooth flowing shape on the bottom.

I am posting a picture so you see what common ladies heel looks like. it is 3/16 inch.

4232.jpg

[jenny_fleishman]

Thanks, Chris. I guess I'm deviating quite a bit from the tried and true methods. I am not pegging (never done it or even seen it done!). I'll be using cement-down construction. My lasts are flat across the heel bottom, since I am planning to make a cupped heel in the molded insert.

I have had problems in the past with professionally made orthotics changing their fit when put inside shoes because of the contours of the shoe's insole tilting or distorting them. So I figure if the inside of the shoe's heel area itself is flat, and I make the bottom surface of the insert flat, and the top surface cupped for my heel, there is less room for distortion of the insert. Do you think this method is guaranteed to fail--or perhaps I should ask, do you think there's any chance this method may work ? I'm inclined to give it a try, just because it seems logical to me....

I am leaning towards 1/4" thickness in the molded insole under my heels because I want to have good padding and shock absorption there. I have high arches, not very flexible feet, planter fasciatis, and on one foot, a heel spur....I'm also afraid of quickly wearing through, or wearing out, the heel area of the inserts if they are too thin. But I'm interested in hearing about other options and techniques. I plan to keep trying different things until I get it "right"!

Jenny

[ttex]

Jenny

To start with, you could add some to the bottom of the last but then you migh have to take it off for the next pair. That is why we use an extra insole sometimes. If the person always uses PPT then the last has a thin layer put on the bottom. If you are working with Rob on this, stick with what he has said.

To be honest the inserts should be made for the shoe they are used in. An insert made for a flat factory heel would not work best on the above shown last. I don't look in on the CC too often when I am at work, but I think Rob talked a little about how the (ONe) insert's effect changes according to the heel hieght of the shoe

We use alot of cork and PPT because it gives but retains it's structor. It doesn't collaps like some materials. I know others use a combo of other materials in the inserts. You can buy sides with two material cemented together. Another way to help is make the bottom of a softer material or at least part of it.

We used alot of gel heel cups or wedges when I was working as a cobbler. They do not break down without alot of abuse. and a real heel spur goes away (usually)and the insert can be taken out. Otherwise ultrasound can break it down sometimes.

Alot of people think they have heel spurs when it is the plantaris attachment that hurts.

All of the above is part of a plan with different parts that is why i say stick with one thought or plan. What I said about Rob.

Try what you are working with, We are all different and we find different things help. I would reccomend stretching your legs and feet. I can help my varus foot by stretching the plantaris muscles and the achilles It works best when the muscles are warm.

Sometimes there are not any tried and TRUE methods. It's a case of finding what works best for that customer. Facts are facts but how much something hurts or doesn't can swing alot from person to person.

The shoes we made at my master's were hard and the shoes we make where I am now are much softer. I am learning new methods and and new materials at my present job. The cork inserts are more flat where my master makes cork that rounds on the bottom so it looks like the bottom of the last and the shoe is built on this.

In short, you are in a fix, because you are still finding what you think best. The disc-groups are good for learning new methods when you have a certain amount experience. Sometimes I am not in aggreement with what is written here, but that doesn't change the fact that sticking with one method or person for the most part is easiest. You should stick with Rob and if I have written something that he thinks is right , then use it. Otherwise take it as food for thought.

By the way, when I peg i cement the shoe also. An allergic person might demand something else but it hasn't happened yet.

I'll check the CC when we get back later today

I hope this helps
CW

[paul_k]

Jenny,

I feel like I'm really only a few pair ahead of you in boot making, but I wanted to jump in here. Afterall, my previous 25 years of shoe repair experience are worth somethin'.

What you're thinking, is what I did successfully a few years ago. I made a pair of extra depth boots for a fitted insert just as you're describing. (In fact I still have the fittings on the last.)

And just as Chris said, I kept the contour of the heel seat, just as the last had to begin with.

It sounds like your instincts are good.

Plung ahead confidently.

PK

[jenny_fleishman]

Thanks. Because I'm making my own lasts, I'm making the heels flat as it seems like it will be easier to fit the inserts.

A DVD I'm watching of an orthopedic shoemaker shows a technique of making a cork insert, and tacking it onto the last bottom, and lasting right over it, which I think might be the way Rob does it (am I right, Rob?). I would think that all the tacking into it when lasting the upper would break down the cork and make it prone to fall apart. In my own case, I expect to use Cloud or something similar instead of cork, and I'm assuming (again) that it would damage the insert to tack into that type of material repeatedly. Correct me if I'm wrong, anybody!

Jenny

[ttex]

Jenny

The method of making the cork or basis of the orth. is what we do here. There are various versions, but the idea is the same.

Wet veg.- tan stretched over the last,
Pinned on the side of the last,
Left to dry in press,
We use staple on the bottom around the edge. I have used nails.
Cement cork onto last to thichness using press
Grind general shape
Remove side tacks
Gring finished shape
Grind the bottom to the desired heel hgt. and toe spring etc
put insole on
Cut
Remove tacks that hold cork to last
Pin shoe

Some times the cork comes loose while grinding and we put a few nails in to hold it and continue to grind. The cork is so compact that you don't have to worry about. You actually have to be careful not to make it to heavy. Some time we use natural cork in part of the process to keep the wieght down. The cork you are talking about is like cork sawdust mixed with glue and left to harden. It can be hard. That is why I mention the PPT.

Do you have a web site on the cloud? Very soft materials demand the extra insole because making a bottom on something so soft is a problem. The finished line are not straight.

The above mentioned process is partly what I wrote about when I mention the different ways to grind the cork.

CW

[jenny_fleishman]

Here's a link:

http://atlasortho.com/sub%20Products/soliong_products/Midsoling/cloud.htm

I actually buy from another company that doesn't have as detailed a Web site.

Jenny

[ttex]

Jenny

From what it says- Medium density- It should be possible to build on it like the cork. We use something called micro cork and a few other products and we build up the insole where needed so you can make the shoe bottom like it should be. You need a grinder to shape the sides and you should not need the veg tan first. This is if you can find a way to hold the warm cloud onto the bottom of the last without a press or vacume press. You'll have to try it to see what happens. In the arch area is easy. you can heat it with the heat gun and pull it up into the arch area and waite until it cools.

I just had an idea. I don't know if it will work, but you could push the last with the warm cloud down into a sand box and waite until it cools down.

I don't know how you will press the insole on with out a press yet.


CW

[relferink]

I've been out of touch for a little while, so much to do, so little time. This mid-summer quite time on the board did do well for me but since my name has come up I'll put in my .
The advice given by Chris is great, definitely agree with it and did not find any objections. Still I will give my view point:

Going back to the comment on the DVD of an orthopedic shoemaker, first of all, what DVD was it you were watching? In some orthopedic shoes a very soft front lining like sheep is called for. Though it is very soft it also pulls apart easy. Wetting this may make it hard once it dries so you would not want to wet last that shoe. In fact if you use such a soft lining you would use a soft skin for the rest of the upper. In that case wet lasting should not be needed and has a high risk of bleeding through the leather. I know of a company that had warm water vapor chambers installed in their shops to soften the uppers before lasting. They would be hung in a very high humidity chamber for a couple of hours. In my (not so) humble opinion this was done to make marginally fitting uppers fall on the last better, it made them more playable. The problem was more the pattern makers than in the lasting department.

I do agree with DW's comment that there are good arguments on both sides and I feel that by knowing the pros and cons of both ways I can choose the best for whatever situation presents itself just like Chris described. Some shapes and leathers simply have to be wet lasted, no if ands or buts.

The typical shoe stretch is a mixture of 50-50 isotope alcohol and water. The alcohol helps soften the leather but also dries quicker. I use it sometimes, the problem I have is that this mixture corrodes the pump in ordinary spray bottles so I go through lots of those and don't always have a backup ready.


Jenny, I think ¼” is a lot (to much?) I would stick with 1/8 all the way, the orthotic will be thicker in some areas but the thickness under the center of the heel and the ball would not be more than 1/8th, even with extra padding for shock absorption. Using more thickness would put you up higher off the ground with the risk of causing extra instability. Depending on the material you use for the orthotic you would not have to be to worried about wearing through it and if you do just replace the orthotic.
I would not use leather for this spacer. Leather has the potential to suck up any spillage of cements etc and may be hard to get out, a synthetic rubber (EVA) or cork works easier in my opinion. Leather is also so much more expensive to use on something you will through out after your done.
One more question on your plan, how are you going to make the orthotic have the same transition point form ¼ to 1/8th? That is going to be very hard and just opens more room for error. It's hard enough so please don't try to make it even harder on yourself.

When you make (made?) the last did you make it to the to the measurements of your feet? If so the shoe is probably going to be to tight, your foot is not flat so the extra material added to make it flat has to be added to the circumference measurement. How much to add is hart to say.
The way I approach this is to keep the last as close to the foot as possible, the bottom profile is often much more rounded that a stock last. I put an insert on that, level it of to a flat bottom and build the shoe around it.

The way you plan to make the bottom of the shoe flat so the orthotic will lay in place better is good but it's a bit of a guess if your good on the volume as you make the shoe. Off course you can adjust that with some spacers after the shoe is ready.

Chris, the advise on stretching is great, it can make a world of difference. It may not be the sole answer to a condition like plantar fasciitis but it sure helps in combinations with orthotics, supportive shoes and some common sense. Be careful going for a shoe that is to soft. Structural support is as important as padding. I like to have a firm shoe with a soft layer close to the skin for comfort. If the base is to soft the foot rolls to much and the muscles and ligaments have to work harder to stabilize the foot, causing fatigue and possible more problems.

Sometimes I am not in agreement with what is written here, but that doesn't change the fact that sticking with one method or person for the most part is easiest. if I have written something that is right , then use it. Otherwise take it as food for thought.

Could not have said it better myself. All I'm posting is my opinion, some of it because it's how I learned it, some if figured out for myself and some I'm just to stubborn to change. Take it an use it as you please, if you figure out a better way I would appreciate the courticy of posting it here and I will see what I do with it.

It's getting late here, I know I have not addressed everything I wanted so will try to continue tomorrow. It's gotten long enough for now. If your still reading this far down; wow, do you really have nothing better to do? Just kidding, thanks for reading.

Rob

[jenny_fleishman]

The DVD is Denes Szabo. As for my lasts, well, I started with STS sock casts of my feet, built them up too much, took them down too much, and built them up again. Folks, don't try this at home. It takes a lot of expertise to do it this way !...I'm relying on my duct tape fitter shoes to return to a reasonable fit. To flatten the heel, I added material around the outer edge. Didn't really measure my feet for the lasts, as I am completely intimidated by that whole idea, although I did measure the ball area.

Rob, could you give a brief description of what would make a shoe desirably "firm" and what would make it "too soft"? Is a shank the main thing? Thanks.

Jenny

[erickgeer]

Jenny,

Robert can correct me if I am wrong, but I think when he refers to "firm" - he is referring to the upper leather. Of course it has impact on the substance of the shank and sole, how heavy the upper is. You would not want to put together a heavy upper, and then apply a slipper sole (to be extreme), nor would you want to use a very heavy sole with a soft lambskin upper.

The first shoes I ever made- I bought what I thought was a very heavy leather, and built onto a bulky last and imitated a welted look. I ran accross these shoes (or what's left of them)- The leather was so light weight! The leather may have been okay if I was doing a slipper!

The point is that the use will dictate what materials are good. Experience and experimentation will go a long way towards helping you make your choices. Leather comes light and heavy, firm and soft... and each will be desirable for a different purpose.

I would rummage through I Sachs and get a few different kinds of leathers and try them out- they have some lighter weight pieces downstairs- ask them where the kid skins are.

I hope I have given you useful information and am not contradicting Roberts thoughts and suggestions.

Erick