Seeking knowledge or survey

[dw]

Al,

Funny you should convert to a wiping strip. Where did you pick it up? Is this recent? Do you do the same at CW? (the use of thread *has* to be more historically accurate)

Just curious...

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[das]

DW,

Now *you* know where I got the idea

If I were doing a historical photo shoot, or documentary I'd go to the old waxend bracing, but fer ease and convenience, a little scrap strip of uppers seems better. It's not a technology-thing, like using something that wasn't around

[dw]

Al,

No, I wasn't *sure.* You have contacts all over the world in museums, among shoemakers (not bootmakers), etc., and I thought perhaps there was a little serendipity at work here. Independent memes, parallel universes...you know...

Heck, I got the idea from Mike Ives...I often wonder where he got it from. Truth to tell, it's no big deal but I can't remember ever running across it before except among those of us who worked with Mike.

In the same vein, we've already established that the half box toe that is nowadays seen nearly nowhere else but cowboy boots probably evolved in Eastern Europe of Germany. Something similar? My question was more a blind stab at origins than anything else.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[erickgeer]

This is probably a better topic to post my earlier message.

" I have a pair of what I think are Military motorcycle boots. The closest I have seen to these are I think WW 1 flying boots, but mine are only (I'm guessing) 12". They have the imprint "Indiana" with an "Indian Chief" head profile - on the rubber sole. I have wondered about these boots for years, I have never run accross this stamp on the bottom anywhere else. They are made from a very heavy "pebble grain" leather, with a single 4' wide strap above the laces (not a lace protector). What got me really curious was that they apear to be goodyear welted AND fully pegged.
I know pegged soles are stiffer, and you want a siff sole on a motorcycle boot, but this seams kind of overkill - was this normal?

If it merits it, I can take pictures today, and post them."

Incase I didn't mention it, I would like to know if these are military, and from when.

Here are the photos:

3077.jpg

3078.jpg

thanks,

Erick

[dw]

Erick,

Just so you know you're not talking to the wind...

I dunno.

Seems like pegs wouldn't be very effective in rubber though.


Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[cmw]

Erick

I saw a few pair at my last job. They were supposed to be more trekking boots than anything else. Though I’ve seen a few that way that were bought in Germany for MC riders.

The soldiers here(DK) came to us to get the soles replaced with vibram that were not that stiff. It has become tradition by now. They get their boots and pay out of their own pockets to get the sole replaced. BTW you will see some with screws instead of pegs.

I would think that they are MC boots as you say/write because of the strap at the top.

CW

[tomo]

Hey Erick,

They are wood pegs eh?
I've seen workboots here with brass nails around the sole like that, and the autosole(?) wire too.

The leather wrap was too stop the footpeg rarking up your shin when the bike wouldn't start. Especially when you'd jumped up and down a few times and flooded the thing.
We use to have a breed of bike here called a Francis Barnard(sp), the 'ol boys use to call them a 'frantic bastard' because they were hard to start, I guess.

That pebble grain leather and style makes me think they're British. But I couldn't imagine Brits having an Indian logo. David kilgour may know more?

That pebble grain leather is/was very common here in NZ for heavy duty footwear, especially boots as it's quite hard wearing and by embossing it the tanneries got greater yield.

Could they be police issue, say from the Indiana State police Dept. for their motorcycle officers?

Just some thoughts.
More power to y'awl.
T.

[relferink]

Erick,

Can you tell if the sole is original or if it has obvious signs of resoling? The “Indian dude” looks familiar but I can’t place it right now. I don’t think I recognize him from the Indian casino’s around here. Somehow I’m thinking back to my grandfathers. When he retired there were boxes of rubber goods (soles, heels etc) and I think that’s were I have seen the logo. As for the boot, doesn’t look like anything I recognize. Can you tell from the inside how it is sized, European, English or US? I’m at my contract job today so probably won’t have much time to look into it more but maybe over the next couple of days when I’m done tearing out the kitchen I’ll try to get a better answer. I have definitely seen the logo before, just can’t recall where.

Rob

[erickgeer]

Rob,
Well, I can't see a size, but on the inside, one of them has printed "2B", the heel and the sole both have the logo, but the heel doesn't seem to go as far forward as original.

3080.jpg

I guess they may have been replaced, but I don't see obvious signs, except the toe plate is worn considerably more than the sole

Tom,
I have only never seen a police rider in lace-up boots. The only time I've seen a picture of anything like this is early 20th c., I may have seen a knee high version on an Austrailian rider in a vintage photo.

Is there a possibility that they are not pegs? I pulled out the sock-liner in one, and it looks more like a McKay on the inside.
These boots just don't make a lot of sense to me.

Erick

[relferink]

Erick,

I found the company that makes the soles and heels, Indiana rubber is a Dutch rubber company, founded in 1930 and specializing in products for the shoe industry and repair branch as well as agricultural mats and plates.

3082.jpg

indiana.nl As to the boot itself, I still have no idea.

Rob

[erickgeer]

Rob,
Wow, that's really surprising. I figured a European company would be the last thing to be called Indiana.

I've decide to try looking for images of military and motorcycle boots again, since it's been a couple of years since I last caught the bug to find out about these boots. So far no success, the only vintage style of motorcycle boot I've found is the "Defender," which as far as I can tell is uniquely British, with the back zipper. No links so far to anything like these.

Since your previous post I began to take more and more to the idea that they are replacement soles, and I suspect that your research finding supports that. Does that make the "pegs" more unusual?

I'm still searching.

Thanks,

Erick

[dw]

As this subject was source for a bit of controversy in the past (see archives 51-75), I thought it might be useful to share what Golding (actually Mr. W. Wardley) has to say about wetting and "tempering" the soles, insoles, etc..

The bench-man commences by wetting, or rather mellowing, the heel-stiffeners, toe-boxing, and soles.

The process of mellowing is one that should be thoroughly understood. It is not just dipping the material in and out of the water; nor is it leaving the material soaking in the water for an indefinite period.

THE PROCESS OF MELLOWING

A large earthenware or enamelled pan should be obtained deep enough to cover completely the materials being soaked. Any old pan or tin will not do, as, in soaking, the bare iron coming in contact with the leather causes a deep black stain on the material, which, in the case of sole leather is an eyesore to the appearance of the bottom, and a great detriment to the finishing process. This stain is caused by the salts of iron coming in contact with the tanning agents or tannic acid emanating from the material being soaked. The same thing occurs if damp or wet leather is placed on iron tools upon the bench, and is a point to be guarded against.

The material should be placed in clean water and completely covered, not half in and half out, as this causes stains and shadings in the colour of the material.

If a little mulling liquor is added to the water, it greatly adds to the softening, tempering, or mellowing effects on the leather.
The duration of soaking is governed by many factors peculiar to the material being used, such as substance of the material, denseness of fibre, quality of leather, and the various tannages. As a general rule, the material should be thoroughly soaked until quite supple,(emphasis mine) then taken out and laid on one side (preferably in a dark corner) to allow all superfluous water to drain off, and the fibres to become thoroughly impregnated.

If it is not to be used at once, a good plan is to wrap the material in a cloth or brown paper and keep it in the dark. This will keep the material in a mellow condition for a very considerable time.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[Rita Yokoi]

I would like to by Borbours Flax thread. Where can I get it?

[tomo]

hey Rita,
Try: www.abbeysaddlery.co.uk

More power to y'awl
T.

[Chris Roolaart]

Take a look on:

www.indiana.nl/english/soles.htm

Chris Roolaart
Operational Manager
Flevo Shoe Products B.V. / Indiana Rubber
The Netherlands

Rubber International SRL / Indiana Rubber
Romania

www.rubber-international.ro

Thanks for your intrest in the famous brand of
"Indiana Rubber"

If you need more information don't hesitate to contact us

[Georgene McKim]

Does anyone out there know how to make huaraches, the woven shoes mostly attributed to Mexico? Know they're made with a continuous strip of leather while wet. Would like some instructions on the sequence of weaving or a pattern or something?

Thanks
Georgene McKim
pres@georgene.net

[uncle_bob]

Looking for information on making pacific island style footwear "sandals" known as zori, or geta style, the first being similar to flip flops and the second being somewhat like a clog "being made of wood". Attatched is a photo of a pair being made.

I am interested in the period of 1900-1950. The purpose of this exersize is to put together a presentation on the traditional techniques used by the indigenous islanders of Guam. Under the German Administration some folk were sent for training in China,

"There was a couple of other people that were sent to China by the Germans. They had their colony there, in what used to be called Tsingtao, and they sent Gregorio Sablan and they sent a guy that learned shoemaking and there were a handful of people." Any information on making the type footwear as depicted in this photo would be dearly appreciated. If you have source references, I may have the books on hand to look it up, bet as of yet have been unable to find anything, with the following exception,
this photo of a clogmaker.

[uncle_bob]

Picture and link for above entry! OOPPPSSS
clog making


(Message edited by Uncle Bob on April 21, 2005)

[uncle_bob]

3547.jpg

[shoestring]

If any one finds a sourse willing to sell just the wooden base give me a holler.
Ed

[erickgeer]

I was poking around the Web site for M.Spenle Last makers in Germany - if you look through their online catalog, they have wooden soles that may work for this purpose. Here is the web address for this entry:

http://www.spenle.de/en/produkte/holzsohlen.php

Be sure to check out the catalog link, there are three different types of sandal block - they will also make them to spec.

Hope this helps,

Erick

[uncle_bob]

Erick,
Many Thanks, This source may just work out fine!
Kind Regards,
Bob
PS. Still interested in learning what tools and techniques may have been used during the 1900-1950 period to make these type shoes.

[Ashworth]

To Group
I need information on what type of glue would have been used on leather in the 18th century.I am trying to do 18th century Harnessmakers deonstration and I want to be historically correct as possiable.
Thanks
Alan Ashworth

[tomo]

Alan,

the best I would suggest is get a copy of Paul Hasluck's book Saddlery and Harness Making first published in 1904, but my copy is a 1975 reprint. The book number is SBN 85131 148 2
The language is antiquated and in parts hard to understand (- well, I think so...).

Anyway one recipe for leather cement is as follows.
"Dissolve guttapercha in bisulphate of carbon until the consistency of treacle. Shave well the parts to be cemented and then spread a little cement evenly over them. Warm them for about half a minute, apply one against the other quickly, and press hard. Keep the bottle well corked and in a cool place."

There are other recipes but that should get you started.

More power to y'awl.
T.

[tomo]

Alan,

another option is to contact the Master Saddlers Society in the UK.


http://www.mastersaddlers.co.uk/

More power to y'awl

T.