The Crispin Colloquy

Don't get us started, right?

Marlietta & all,

Since DW dared display his tootsies, here are mine to illustrate comments I made the other week. I know a pedographic ink imprint of the bottoms would be more diagnostic for this discussion, but I did not have one handy when a friend stopped by the office with his digi-cam. If this discussion grows legs, I may try to get a pedograph posted if my camera-toting friend comes back next week.

Anyway... here are some of those "rare", textbook, "outflare" feet, uncommon in the general population. They are pain-free, happy, healthy walking feet. Only symptoms are: occasional medial callous forms on great toes from clipping lasts/toe shapes, squished/folded toe nail on right little toe from clipping footwear (see FN below), and periodic (brief) flare-up of tarsal-tunnel syndrome (podiatrist's diagnosis) in ankles after wearing occasional footwear that has insufficient medial "uptwist" in heel seat.

Note: the curious (to me) lateral deflection in the last joint of the great toes. This occurred at around age 17-18 when I spent a year in a pair of Clark's "Treks" that were a half-size too short (those had a very anatomical last/toe shape BTW). It was interesting to me that the last joint of the toe deflected, while my 1st met segment stayed in line. Strong toes I guess, however, both my parents had very nasty, nasty, bunions, so if there's a genetic component, thankfully, it by-passed me. My usual wear-pattern is: thinning or "o" hole under 1st met joints, some thinning/wear of sole edge under 5th, and heel-wear just to the lateral side of center-rear in the heel, all of which I observe as "normal"/"common" for a wide variety of feet where gait is not short-circuited by ill-fitting footwear.


Photo was taken semi-weight-bearing while seated, and I did not fan my toes out artificially to exaggerate anything, I just let them relax naturally. Note, too, how the medial heels and medial great toes touch the edge of the size stick, leaving an air gap at the first met joint. If the great toe only moves laterally "X" for every "Y" of heel height, I'd have to wear pretty high heels to just get it to move into the "neutral" commercial last position *OUCH*

At HCC in Guthrie, OK, Fred Coen evaluated my feet... Some "varus" this, and "valgus" that, regrettably much of which sailed right over my head. He did notice that as my ankle fully articulated/extended, my foot hinged to larboard (or port?), can't recall. Maybe we need to open a new thread here, "Is There A Doctor In The House?", where we could corner the c-peds and do some of this medical discussion? I know it's impossible to get accurate diagnostic data going on-line, via photos, but it might help.

[FN--I have observed 5th toe-clipping (DW has some) even in neutral feet cause by the great toe pushing-back against a medially-clipping last/toe shape. Being the stronger toe, this push-back shifts the whole forefoot laterally in the shoe/boot, and crushes the 5th against the vamp. Or, in other cases, the 5th makes a bulge in the vamp laterally, or the foot just walks-over the sole on the lateral side, whereas the "problem" exists on the medial side of the footwear. IOW, the foot scoots over trying to resist a medial "pinching" shape, and the little toe looses the fight, like the poor people who get trampled in the stampede on Black Friday sales at the big box stores (American inside joke).]

Al,

I finally got around to looking at Swaysland, and I have to tell you I am not reading it like you are.

D.A. Saguto, November 25, 2010

Sounds like you best start by dipping your toes into the pool on this. Get a hold of 'Boot & Shoe Manufacture' by Edward Swaysland (Northampton, 1905)--don't you have it? Go to pgs. 24-26, and plate 9. Pay especial attention to the bottom last fitting he labeled #13 in fig. 5, plate 9. This is the heel-to-4th/5th head fitting you can stick on the bottom to effectively make a nice trough for the foot to settle into, which adds some medial uptwist as well.

Don't just go grinding on lasts, no, try experimenting with fittings first. My "West Ender" last you have is usually all the uptwist I resort to, but if you added a #13 fitting to the bottom of that, you'd go off the dial with twist

The #13 fitting itself, illustrated in Plate 8, looks awfully like a full seat fitting. Which, I suspect, would not really do much to alter or implement "twist."

And indeed, on page 24, Swaysland says

The waist may be deadened and the seat made more round by fittings, as 13.

This is the only reference I could find of of fitting #13.

Interestingly enough...and perhaps connected...in plate 10 and on page 29, Swaysland talks about the "English section" comparing it to the "American section" and seems to suggest that the English heelseat is generally made flatter than the American heelseat. In that context, putting on a #13 fitting to make "the4 seat more round" makes sense.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

I don't know if this will add to the discussion or generate comment or perhaps just shock and awe but if it's a pedograph that is wanted, here's mine:


Weight on, socks on, and trying to trace around by myself (difficult to do) so a little rough.

Note the LOMA and the centerline and the outline of the bottom paper for the unmodified last (in red). Where the bottom paper does not cover the print the last needs to be built-up (generally speaking).

Note how the last has been aligned such that the featherline at the medial ball converges with the edge of the medial joint on the foot print.
Every indication suggests that all needed build-ups be placed on the lateral side of the last.

Swaysland reiterates this point, and if I am reading him correctly, concludes that not only will the foot not normally shift to the medial side but that if a foot and last indicate that a medial build-up is needed, the build up must be extended all the way back to the heel or the foot will settle laterally in the shoe anyway...leaving a gap between the foot and the side of the shoe that will never be filled.

This next one has an upon which the bottom paper of the modified last has been traced (in green).


Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

PS...I don't get a medial callus on the great toe...leastwise never have so far.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

D.W.

So I can see better of what is going on here, and understand, would you be willing to pedigraph print our foot bare with darker ink or finger paint or graphite lastmakers ink so I can see you skin patterns and arch marks from your pedegraph?

-Marlietta

DW,
you're suggesting taking of material from the existing last at the medial waist. Is this what are you suggesting, if you only want to build up a last or is this only for illustration?
Andre

Ok,
here we line up all the three lasts, of DW, J&M and Marlietta. DW is in yellow, with the dotted line where he likes to build up.
Here we go:

and now let's have a look closer


Ups.. Looks like in the family.

I would say, no wonder that everybody is happy with their last.
Andre

Andre,

DW,
you're suggesting taking of material from the existing last at the medial waist. Is this what are you suggesting, if you only want to build up a last or is this only for illustration?

No, that's my mistake. I had to make an impromptu bottom paper from my modified last. I made it from the outline of the insole, and I tend to cut my insoles a little different in the waist than the lastmaker's bottom paper would suggest. Mostly for styling reasons.

I don't cut the last if I can help it.

I would make this observation regarding the comparisons you've made...they are interesting but mine is the only one that is related to an actual foot.

For instance, you will note on my pedograph that I have marked the medial and lateral ball joints. This is not a spurious mark or a guess. It is an actual representation of the joints themselves, complete with the recognition that the joint tends to retrograde from the dorsal to the plantar surface.

Also, I find the medial ball joint at 8/12th's of the (S)tandard (L)ast (L)ength...ala Sabbage. This is important because it moves my treadline back when compared to where some lastmakers want to find it. I have run across lastmakers who want it to be at 7/10th's SLL and I don't think that corresponds to the real world.

My last is deliberately a little long...I wanted to capture that extended toe look. Whether that affects this comparison or not, I suspect it does but cannot think it through at the moment. Suffice it to say that if a last is designed to have two full sizes clearance beyond the toe, and it is compared to a last having four full sizes clearance, simply lengthening the last digitally will not preserve the relative proportions. I suspect you need to match up heel to ball lengths first and let the toe shapes/forepart lengths fall where they will.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

DW,

Hummm..... Good observation. I simply jumped to Swaysland looking for pix of plantar last fittings as an alternative to grinding up a last to experiment with. I'm not 100% certain, but to "deaden" to Swaysland might have meant to drop it lower (the lateral waist) via the fitting, which would allow the foot to rotate down laterally/up medially.

Remember he's comparing 1890s-1905 UK and US (factory) lasts. Most 20thc US factory lasts are very flat in the heel seat--too flat. Nineteenth-century US lasts often do have a pronounced convexity to the heel seat that's gone away over the decades. B/S/ made on them have a very nice deep cup under the heel, a very convex seat, and require a lot of split-lift action to level the seats for heel-building--Jesse Lee can confirm this I'm sure.

I bet you could make a #13 type fitting, skived off thin to zero in the medial heel, but full thickness in the lateral heel extending down under the "root of the 5th" and get a bit of medial uptwist, if you wanted to test the effect without buggering-up your good last.

Glad you've missed the medial great toe callous. Mine comes/goes depending on what I've been wearing that season--no biggie. Two main factors there: 1) last "swing", and 2) soft or hard toe stiffener ("puff", "box", etc.). In a more resilient or soft-toed vamp, my great toe makes its own bulge medially and no rubbing.

I won't be able to view the images posted until I'm back in the office Monday, but what I noticed from your foot photo was how tightly clustered your 3rd, 4th, and 5th were, almost as if sculpted by the boots you wear. When you walk do your little toes spread-out at all, or "grip" the ground? They look like they are almost rendered immobile--but it's just one photo

I'll see if I can't get a shot of my own pedograph next week to post, and bottom papers.

Al,

Well, I hope you're right because I have a shoe customer that complained about a tendency to walk the fitter's models off to the medial side. So I put a judicious lateral lift on the last...call it a modified #13 fitting.... However, he had already approved the fitter's models so this alteration will come as a surprise to him. I think I have been careful enough and deliberate enough that it will be just enough or he won't even notice.

But if I hear screeching, I'm blaming you.

I wouldn't deny that my toes do cluster together. But I am not certain that photo is entirely representative. For one thing, my toes are not immobile. Nor do they feel stiff or like they are rubbing against each other.

On the other hand, I just slapped my foot down with, sitting weight only, and shot the photo.

Here is another photo full weight on taken just after I have shifted weight to that foot as if I were going to take a step. I did not deliberately splay my toes, at all. In fact I deliberately tried to avoid doing so. This photo is one of a series of four...some of which like more like the photo of your foot than mine. Go figure.


Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

(Message edited by dw on December 04, 2010)

Marlietta,

I hate to be a stick in the mud but all I can say is that "I'll work on it."

I suspect that my pedograph is not sensitive enough to register "skin patterns" and "arch marks."

I don't have any grease paint and I am not sure that "baring my sole" is a good idea in such a public arena. This smacks of foot pRon.

Having said that, I do not doubt that the sock I am wearing distorts the shape of my footprint.For instance, I suspect the inked area behind the medial ball joint is mostly sock. But that's the way I have always done it to fit boots and shoes--socks on--and I suspect that making a bespoke last would have to accommodate the bulk of the sock, as well.

I like to illustrate a point to my students--take a 12" length of tissue or toilet paper and cut a one inch strip the full length. Wrap that strip around any girth on the foot and tear to length.

Now tightly...very tightly...roll the tissue strip, starting at one end, until you have a nice little one inch wide log. The diameter of that log, if all air has been squeezed out, equals the circumferential increment that would be added to the girth of the foot if were wearing a tissue thin sock. Add "loft", yarn thicknesses, etc., and the sock becomes critical.

BTW, I'm not wearing my Barney undies to the airport either.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

DW,
I just lined up the last for the twist and I think like you also, that there is not a big difference from this point.
Now I send one more "last" pic, where I have taken your last O U T and put the J&M in, but lined them up at your heel position form your last. Practically without knowing your last and position, just seeing your pedograph I would might go 2-3 mm back, to give a little more alinement's with the joints, what you think? Could you live with the J&M last, of course the lateral build up has to be done?

Andre

Andre,

All else being equal, maybe. I do think--I was trying to address this above--that the J&M last has a short forepart. My foot is a 7C+ ("+" for build-ups) in my lasts. If the J&M is sized as a 7, I suspect it would be a hair too long for my feet--the heel-to-ball measurement seems a tiny bit off or too long.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

Marlietta,

OK, here's the best I can do--naked foot pedograph.

I'm not sure what it tells us that we don't already know...except what I was on about in my last post to you--socks. Here we can see quite clearly that the naked foot prints narrower than the socked foot and that the modifications (green line) made to the last (which fit to a "T," BTW) seem excessive for the foot.

What do you see?


Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

(Message edited by dw on December 04, 2010)

Thank you D.W. for the clearer print. Before I asked my question, I wanted to make sure I was seeing things clearly.

So I do have a question. I caveat it by saying once again, that I am learning this last build up thing as apposed to making a new last every time, So My question is this: When one is making a new last from a square block of wood, and , when one sees an inflar foot, they swing the last from the lateral side. When one has a out flare foot, the last is swung from the medial side, and when One has a neutrual foot, niether swinging right or left, the last is swung from center line. So, comming from this point of view, if a last has been designed to be swung from the lateral or medial side, why do you guys always line up the last from center line instead of the swing line? Correct me if I am wrong, but i would seem to me that this would be a great cause for banana shaped foot wear.

Center line is supposed to pass from the heel strick ( which I was looking for in your print but is covered up by the lines) and the "v" of the metatarsal arch ( this can be seen in a graphit ink print and with the example below) i was also looking for the first joint smear or swirl to see which side your foot likes to strike and the little toe and finially, the print pattern of the toes. These areas tell me which way to swing a last If I were making it new.

A last that is designed to be swung from the lateral side because it is an inflare foot and the foot is also set up to match this swing with the foot along the lateral boarder of the last drawing ,it allows more room to be built up or what fernado called wood pile up on the medial side to wlll give the first toe more room and a design sense when shaping the toe to center line.

So once again, Andre set up the last on your foot from center swing line. Where as, since you like medial toe room, why wouldn't you swing your pedigraph with your last on the lateral side to give the shape of the toe box and long arch a sweeping curve and less bananna shape?

I mean this with the most respect to your experience. I am quarying because I am sure you have a good reason why you do it this way. A reason I am not aware of and would really really like to know.

-Marlietta
Lastmakingschool.com

What I understand from the posts I read is that regardless of the type of foot, you guys as a rule swing the lasts like the illustration below however, lining up the foot like this makes it 7 degrees off:

-Marlietta


(Message edited by Last_maker on December 04, 2010)

so here is that same inflare foot wearing the lateral swing last shape, (I don't have a cad program so I tried to draw the lines with photoshop they might be a bit wobbly hopefully you'll get the idea):

DW,

Ach well laddie.... So it's a paying customer's foot we're talking about now? Without the foot or your fitter's model in front of me, it's hard to say. A "modified #13" plantar fitting will help, but you might also just cant the heel-seat and base lower laterally, then build the heel as usual. Or try this on the fitter first, like the old shoe-dogs used to do in the olden days, wedge-up the medial heel with a skiving out of the 5-in-1 to see if that'll do the trick

If the boot has a tapered cowboy heel of any height above 1", be careful or he/she'll fall off the heel to the outside. Like adding strong spices to foods, don't over-do it--a little medial "uptwist" goes a looooong way. But if the customer if feeling upthrust under the lateral mid-to-rear-foot, inducing them to pronate, yes, "twist" is called for. One caveat here: if the customer is small, slim, or athletic, he/she could stand more twist--less twist if over-weight or "out of shape", as these folks have less "tone" in the muscles and tendons usually, and are more apt to twisting their ankles falling off of heels. No matter their physique, are they a strident walker with a very confident gait, or do they plod along barely articulating their feet at all? All of this has to be taken into consideration IMO. I usually have a customer walk around the shop in their socks to see what's going on there before I measure, and look carefully at wear patterns on their current shoes too.

Marlietta,

On "swing"--what I usually do is overlay my bench-mark inflare, outflare, or neutral lasts or their bottom papers onto the customer's pedographic imprints, and decide which degree of "swing" shape to use, then choose a last and go from there. If I physically have to "swing" a for a custom last, I start with a wooden model (or old "orphan" wood last). I saw it almost in half along the treadline or just behind it with a coarse-cut hand saw, leaving a web of wood in the center top to bottom, so I can merely bend the forepart in my hands which ever direction it needs to go. The coarse-cut saw removes enough wood that there's a gap on both sides. I wedge the one side to close the other, fill with glue/putty, sand smooth and send this custom swung model off for duplicating. I'm sure this could be done on CAD in "virtual reality", but I'm the "analog" guy in the corner with rasps and wood remember

Marlietta, Al,

Hey, I admit it. I'm just a dumb old bootmaker. I'm never even sure what "inflare" and "outflare" refers to. I mean I know the shapes but which is which? ((I've had this mental block about inflare and outflare for as long as I can remember...every time I think I have it sorted out someone says something that confuses me all over again.)

Al is the master last man here, I am trying to understand but I wouldn't advise anyone to hold their breath.


Let me make some points...

• I have never seen a "strick" when I've printed the foot. I don't know how that point is arrived at.
• I've never seen the "V" of the met arch when I've printed a foot, although I understand where and how it might be located.
• I am not in a position to saw a last to swing the forepart in either direction. In the first place, I'm using plastic lasts and getting them back together is going to be problematic. Second, I hate to say this but I have to face reality...I simply don't have time to play with lasts the way I would have to in order to cut a last preparatory to swinging the forepart.
• I don't understand the rationale for your "swing line," or why it is not up against the print;
• I don't understand why your "treadline" (if that's what it is) appears to run behind the lateral ball joint;
• and I don't have much confidence in the line running from your strick point through the "V" of the met arch--I don't know what it represents simply because if we take the pad of flesh under the first met head into consideration, the "V" cannot possibly be anywhere but under the second met head or even between the second and third.
• I don't line my lasts up according to the centerline. You can see the centerline (ala Rossi) in the photo of 3 Dec at 4:24 PM--the first pedograph I posted. Rossi's centerline (my centerline) seems to be markedly different than your centerline.

Finally (for now) I don't see the difference between cutting the last and swinging the forepart as you and Al would probably do, and building up the medial or lateral side of the forepart as long as I follow the foot.

In that context, you may very well feel that I am clipping the toes with my foot/insole. I could understand if you do.

On the other hand, I worry that if the last represented in your third illustration were made into a shoe...at virtually any heel height...the customer would be able to feel the medial insole with his thumb. In other words, there would be a gap between the side of the first and the inside of the shoe.

And frankly...no offense intended...I think the shoe would look "orthopedic." Nothing wrong with that but people don't come to me for orthopedic shoes. As our redoubtable jefe as famously quoted (let me see if I can get this approximately right): "the shoe is a a three legged stool and one leg of that stool is aesthetics (the other two being utility and fit). If any leg is short, or long, or out of balance with the other two the stool/shoe fails.

I could go on and on. A measure of my ignorance, I am afraid.

None of this means that you don't know what you're doing or, more importantly, that I do. Rather that I don't have your knowledge base and simply don't understand what you're doing. I've never encountered terms like "strick" in the liturature before.

I see something similar all the time--there are several good bootmakers who post to this board. Few of them measure the foot like I do. Few of them transfer those measurements to the last the way I do (see my reference to Sabbage above) and almost none lay out patterns like I do. They make great boots, great fitting boots and so do I (usually--even for people who are master last modelers) And almost without exception, none of us understand, or even approve of, what the other guy is doing. Yet all these "systems" work.

I am not sure whether the discrepancies of understanding that arise here are a result of my ignorance; a language barrier; or just an entirely different system.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

This is great information. I would love some clarification in how folks are doing things.

DW:
It appears your 'center line' is defined as passing through the mid-point of the joint line -- is that correct?

In looking at your modified insole shape, the toe is not centered on the LOMA, but rather a bit laterally offset relative to LOMA. Given this reality, what is the application of LOMA?

All:

When we define a foot an 'inflare', what do we mean? Al, I would think your foot is an inflare foot, since your big toe is inboard of your inside joint, relative to your heel. But, in reading your comments, I think you call your foot an outflare foot? Marlietta, the picture you show of the 'inflare' foot doesn't look that 'inflared' to me, since the big toe sits laterally to the heel - joint line; so, how do you define an inflare foot? Is it a certain angle of the center line relative to the outside line of the last, or what? (And, likewise, what is an outflare foot, per your definition?).

Marlietta:

How do you arrive at the calculation that the last would be 'off by 7 degrees?'

I infer, from your pics and words, that your last centerline is intended to pass through the location of the maximum height of the metatarsal arch? I am assuming that is what causes the 'V' on the imprint. In your experience, does the location of the 'v' vary for different feet, relative to the heel to middle toe line, or the centerline as defined by the mid-point of the joint line?

Also, that modeled last bottom looks really banana shaped, particularly for a foot that isn't all that inflared (at least by the relative position of the big toe vs. the heel to joint line). Does your approach lead to lasts with more curvature relative to the lasts one typically sees (not that this is good or bad)?

All:

When we think about last shapes, as I see it, there are mainly three things we end up worrying about (leaving the 'girth measurements out of it, as well as the heel profile): insole shape; last 'border' shape, and location of the cone/mass of the last above the border. So, what is the role of the centerline and the LOMA in determining each of these? At the end of the day, are we really just using the shape of the plantar surface and the tracing to select a last that as closely as possible corresponds, then do additional modification to fine tune this? If we were going to make a bespoke last from a solid block of wood, what we use the centerline and the LOMA for -- e.g. to center the cone at the top of the instep, and/or for other purposes?

Thanks,
Lance

(Note: composed while DW was posting the preceding post).

(Message edited by lancepryor on December 05, 2010)

D.W.

_________________________________________________________________
· Quote:
· "I have never seen a "strick" when I've printed the foot. I don't know how that point is arrived at".
_________________________________________________________________
The strick of the calcaneaus is the most promanet point of the heel. It is what "stricks" first when landing on the foot. If you look a t the calcaneaus you will see at the very bottom this point. On Graphite ink, this clearly prints as a dot.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------
Quote:
"I am not in a position to saw a last to swing the forepart in either direction. In the first place, I'm using plastic lasts and getting them back together is going to be problematic. Second, I hate to say this but I have to face reality...I simply don't have time to play with lasts the way I would have to in order to cut a last preparatory to swinging the forepart".
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------


I would not promote that one cuts up an existing last unless they want to. and then at that point, perhaps it is time to carve a new last. Maybe??? I am simply trying to get an understanding why when one goes to fit up a last, often I see a mis alignment of swing. But again, perhaps there is a boot/shoe making theory here, that I am missing, thus I ask the questions.

___________________________________________________________________
Quote:
· I don't understand the rationale for your "swing line," or why it is not up against the print;
___________________________________________________________________


I didn't put the swing line right up against the print in the illustration because I wanted the angle to be clear However, in a real life situation, the swing line would be right up agaist the print.


___________________________________________________________________
Quote:"I don't understand why your "treadline" (if that's what it is) appears to run behind the lateral ball joint";
__________________________________________________________________


First of all, I have to admit that I did those illustrations in a hurry as a GENERAL concept so they might be a bit off or even sloppy. the foot to outline might be a bit or a lot off. Again I don't have a cad program, and i simply wanted to ask the question with out a lot of hoopla.
Saying such, there is a striaght horizontal line that aligns with the the center of the little toe, and a striaght horizontal line that lines up with the center of the large MPJ
___________________________________________________________________
Quote: "and I don't have much confidence in the line running from your strick point through the "V" of the met arch--I don't know what it represents simply because if we take the pad of flesh under the first met head into consideration, the "V" cannot possibly be anywhere but under the second met head or even between the second and third".
___________________________________________________________________

So then how do you arrive at your center line?

_________________________________________
Quote:
· I don't line my lasts up according to the centerline. You can see the centerline (ala Rossi) in the photo of 3 Dec at 4:24 PM--the first pedograph I posted. Rossi's centerline (my centerline) seems to be markedly different than your centerline.


Finally (for now) I don't see the difference between cutting the last and swinging the forepart as you and Al would probably do, and building up the medial or lateral side of the forepart as long as I follow the foot.
_________________________________________________


I don't cut up a last either. I am trying to learn simply to use build ups or try a different last.

In flar out flare and neutral. well, I used the pedigraph above as an example of an inflare You can see it "c" curving to the inside. This is an inflare foot. thus, the opposit would be true if it was flaring the towards the lateral side.

I don't only swing the forpart, I swing the whole foot according to the swing line. Admitedly, it does end up swinging the forpart.

I would propose to swing the foot based on inflare out flare or neutral by making a sole shape and then see if there is a last that would match it. Apparantly, Al keeps a file of last shapes sole shapes and simply lays them on top of the foot. This seems really efficient.

________________________________________________________________
Quote:

On the other hand, I worry that if the last represented in your third illustration were made into a shoe...at virtually any heel height...the customer would be able to feel the medial insole with his thumb. In other words, there would be a gap between the side of the first and the inside of the shoe.

And frankly...no offense intended...I think the shoe would look "orthopedic." Nothing wrong with that but people don't come to me for orthopedic shoes.

__________________________________________________________________
First of all, I have to admit that I did those illustrations in a hurry as a GENERAL concept so they might be a bit off or even sloppy. The foot to outline might be a bit or a lot off. Again I don't have a cad program, and i simply wanted to ask the question with out a lot of hoopla.
Of course some artistic licence would have to be made in order for a lateral swung last to be aethetically pleasing, and not "orthopedic" but it can be done. Also the toe box needs some serious help aethetically speaking. Also, The foot represented is a EEE width, Short arched foot. It is difficult to get a pretty shape with such a short wide foot, It is why I used it as an example to get you guys' imput.
_________________________________________________________________

Finally, I am not asking these questions to simply shyly nudge you a different way, in a know it all way, but to understand what you guys are doing to add and subtract from lasts and create aethetically pleasing and good fitting footwear.

-Marlietta

Lance,

The degrees comes from utilizing photoshop of how much one has to "rotate the foot to match anothers swing line. Thats all.

How do you arrive at the calculation that the last would be 'off by 7 degrees?'
_______________________________________________
I infer, from your pics and words, that your last centerline is intended to pass through the location of the maximum height of the metatarsal arch? I am assuming that is what causes the 'V' on the imprint.
_______________________________________________

Yes that is what I mean.

_________________________________________

In your experience, does the location of the 'v' vary for different feet, relative to the heel to middle toe line, or the centerline as defined by the mid-point of the joint line?

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This "v" can very from foot to foot but it is somewhere between the second and third toe. But instead of guessing the top of the upside down "V" is the center line matching with the cacaneaus strick.
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Also, that modeled last bottom looks really banana shaped, particularly for a foot that isn't all that inflared (at least by the relative position of the big toe vs. the heel to joint line). Does your approach lead to lasts with more curvature relative to the lasts one typically sees (not that this is good or bad)?

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O.k. So, Using that last shape perhaps wasn't a good example. It is a short arched very wide foot. I was asking a question to get input. Not saying my shape is the best. I was simply trying but seemed to fail at saying that swinging the last from the natural swing line of the foot is what I was taught as the "correct" thing to do. But as D.W.says there are differnt methods and approaches. I simply want to know what others do in thier approach to this problem. Or if they have an inflare/ out flare or neutral foot with out any other issues.


-Marlietta





(Message edited by Last_maker on December 05, 2010)

Lance,

Good questions.

First, my centerline is the centerline of the foot as defined by Rossi....ie.; the foot print is "bounded by drawing a line tangent to the print of medial ball and tangent to the medial side of the "heelseat" print. And another from the lateral ball to the lateral heel. You can see these lines in all of my recent posted pedographs. Theoretically these lines are extended behind the heel such that they intersect. The angle is measured and bisected. That's the centerline. Where it intersects the the back of the heel is the center of the heel and a line is then drawn from that point thru a point between the 1st met head and the second met head.This line is the (L)ine (O)f (M)uscular (A)ction--LOMA. Golding (?) describes something very similar.

What good is it? Aside from giving us a fair representation of averaged weight distribution through a gait sequence...it just so happens that on my boot lasts when the last is correctly aligned over the footprint the LOMA will very nearly bisect the toe of the last. On my shoe last, having been derived from the boot last, the relationship is the same but the LOMA necessarily cannot bisect the toe of the last simply because on the original model the toe of boot last has been widened on the lateral side.

My thought through all of this is that on feet where there is significant distortion of the forefoot...such as pronounced bunions or perhaps inflare or outflare feet (whatever the definition)...and a relationship between the medial side of the foot and the medial side of the last seems equally distorted, the LOMA gives us a way to more accurately position the last over the footprint. And this, in turn, tells us where we need to build up--medial side? lateral side?

Having said that, I might point out that short of digital scanners (and a way to scientifically and repeatably interpret the results), no one can measure the foot and collect data without some uncertainty entering into the data. How hard do you pull the tape? Is the outline stylus at a perfect 90° to the floor? Is the heel to ball measurement accurate to the dorsal surface of the joint or to the plantar surface? Etc.

I seem to have a mental block about "inflare" and "outflare" but I kind of gravitate to Lance's definition (if I understand correctly) in which an inflare foot is when the big toe is to the medial side of the medial joint. The foot is "flaring" inward relative to body mass.

Swaysland implies quite strongly that there is a portion of the foot...roughly corresponding to the medial side of the instep...that will not move much in a healthy foot. He also says that mere side pressure on the medial joint will not deflect the toe or cause bunions--that it requires clipping, and severe clipping in adults.

For the first, I have always favoured an inside cone as being more anatomically correct. And have chosen my last models correspondingly. And if I have the last correctly aligned over the foot print--which is, whether we like it or not, one of the very few pieces of empirical data we can collect from the foot--the cone will be in a close to proper relationship to the actual foot.

As for the issue of clipping...I have to say this and hope I don't offend anyone...Swaysland, Golding, Rossi aside, it is all very well and good to theorize and make pronouncements about how a last or a last shape will affect a foot. But it is quite another to spend nearly 40 years actually observing the effects of a particular last shape on a variety of feet. You've seen a photo of my foot and you've seen my foot print. As far as the way I fit my customers, I don't do much different than I have done for myself. My foot doesn't exhibit any deleterious effect from wearing footwear (almost exclusively ) fit in this manner that could not also be attributed to age and the inevitable entropy that comes with it. (I might add that early on in my career, I sold a run of lasts at a loss because they very significantly clipped the big toe.)

And an astoundingly high percentage of my customers are similarly satisfied.

I don't say this to dismiss any of those experts or any of the theories that abound...only to point out that I suspect real world experience is just as important as theory.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

(Message edited by admin on December 05, 2010)