The Crispin Colloquy

Andre,

I don't envy you if those are your feet...I don't envy you if those are a customer's feet.

Once we get so far away from "normal" foot shape, LOMA is out the door simply because there is no way to average the sequence and direction of "muscular action."

No offense intended but feet like these are why I swore years ago to never, ever do orthopedic work.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

The boots you made me? When new, right out of the box the heels felt too high and up-thrusting on the lateral side. No, the are very balanced in walking, in fact they may even be a little too supination-inducing, but remember they've been well broken-in, worn-out and re-soled. If I try I can fall off the heel to the outside, but not to the inside. What's that say? Of course I usually wear a 5/8" to 1" straight-sided heel, not a tapered cowboy boot heel.

Part of it is, we are sometimes sloppy walkers, and often fail to try to do heel-strike, roll down the lateral side, roll across to the 1st, then push off, especially if our footwear wants to "push back" short-circuiting gait.

If I "tighten" them up nice and snug with thicker socks, they clip my great toe badly. The swing is fine, just the toe shape is too narrow/confining for my "monkey feet" with "prehensile" great toes

Al,

You know, of course, that there is no medial twist in the last those boots were made on? Zero.

I suspect that we are leaving out one other factor--something that Janne mentioned above--the heel stiffener and mid-liner have an affect on all of this too...perhaps more than we know.

Which is another reason why I am chary about heel stiffeners that are too soft or too thin--the heel stiffeners on your boots are nearing 10 iron...maybe 11 iron. And even though they only extend forward to the region of the malleolus (?) they prevent pronation even at that higher heel.

As an aside, I am pretty sure a FM for those boots were made...if I recall that correctly, your OK of them indicated your preference for an "easier" fit than the maker would have preferred. Which is only by way of illustrating how our preferences are not always in agreement. And how interdependent these things can be.

If you prefer a looser fit it might play right into the problems with pronation. Especially if the heel stiffener is too soft or too thin or doesn't extend all the way to the ball. Or if, because the fit is loos(er), the heel seat being too wide.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

Paul,

No, I don't think I have an inflare foot at all.

As for the AE's...I have seen boots where there is a small wedge at the medial corner of the breast---I think it's there to fill in a hollow in the arch and bring the heel heel stack level. I don't think it is corrective.

As for Tippitt, it would be interesting to get his take. But when I was first getting into this business I bought all my lasts from E.J McDaniel--a very highly regarded model maker in St. Louis. Passed on lo these many years.

On one occasion I sent him a last that had a medial heel twist. Perhaps his comments have set the tone for my perspective in this conversation because he told me it was "very bad" That the heelseat plane ought to be congruent with the forepart plane.

You think there's a definitive answer?

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

DW,

Gotcha, but yes, when the heel of the foot comes down onto the insole in gait, do we want it to meet support evenly across, then easily channeling weigh down the lateral side to the 5th, or do we want it to encounter upward thrust on its lateral side first, because the medial side is effectively retarded because it is too low, by-passing the lateral side and 5th, and dumping weight straight onto the 1st met. head? This invites pronation IMO.

Or, when standing up perfectly still, do you want the relaxed foot to feel as if it's been rolled downhill into the medial side of the B/S, with little if any weight bearing on its the lateral side? Or, just to stand up evenly balanced, heel-1st-5th, you have to roll your feet uphill laterally inside the B/S to balance, feeling nothing under the medial heel to help keep you up? These are the effects of "twist" in a nutshell.

Al,

See, I understand and agree with that. What worries me is that I feel none of that in my "dead-last" boots. (Apparently you don't either.)

And given that my foot naturally hangs out over the medial side (I begin to think "pronatinon" is overstating it), you would think I would.

I can understand your concerns and your perspectives given the foot you have. What I can't understand is that given the foot I have why my foot, my experiences with my foot and observations are so different...as I said, given the way my foot is built you would think I'd be first on board with this medial twist theory.

Sad to say the old cob comes out in me and I gravitate towards an more "neutral" perspective rather than risk "over-thinking" the problem and/or overcompensating.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

Paul,

Here's a photo of my feet...weight-bearing...a foot that has worn heels above inch and a half almost continuously for nearly 35 years. And a foot that...speaking of break-in and adaptability...immediately developed terrible blisters on the heel the first time it wore a well made shoe--not used to heel stiffeners that cupped the heel that much. Go figure.



Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

PS...

Don't look Ethel!!

It's an old man's foot.


Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

DW,
it's not that bad - I hope so....


But do you not think, that the red line in the pic above shows, that, what I call now the walking LOMA,
shifts to the lateral side, should it not considered to twist and and shift the line to the 2nd toe, which would be the more natural way for this feet to do? Ok, it can not be lined up, done, but when you realize, that your customer has a tendency to walk over the lateral side, you want to consider this? Ok, we do not have this computer stuff, but a look inside an old shoe of the customer sometimes also tell's stories or not? I'm only curiously asking, because the LOMA is a vector and if we need to follow, should we not take the style of walking in consideration, of course in case we come to know?
Andre

Tomorrow I will ask my wife how to reduce pics, sorry for that..
Andre

Poor Ethel, I don't she got the warning soon enough.
Thank you.

OK, then what are we talking about? What is an inswing? inflare?

Here's what I'm about, and his looks like yours.


I would welcome your comments on how I dealt with it in this example.

No I don't think there is a definative answer.
And if there were anything detremental about your last models it would have shown up long before now. I trust what you have done with them when you modeled them.

But that's mostly about twist, and I'm just reading on that one. It's toe clipping I want to know more about.

Would you be able to show a picture of different boot toes you've worn? I would be stumped to put you in a J toe. I need a lesson obviously.

Thank you,
Paul

what I mean by looking in an old shoe, of course I mean to look at the socks, in my case it's almost more clear than done with the computer.

I'd love this converation! it is aWESOME!! Thanks Al and D.W for spawning questions and answers we all can use.

I would like to adress Al's comment on ladies last/shoes:

Quote:
-----------------------------------------
"Degree" or "wedge-angle" is baaaaad too, in my book. It just creates a ramp for the foot to slide down, jamming the toes way up into the toe of the B/S, resulting in a very bad container-shape

-----------------------------------------------

I havent' worked with many commercial lasts for all of mine are custom bespoke, however, I do know that the heel seat in a ladies high heal shoe is NOT supposed to be a stright downward hill.that is a recipie for pain!!!

For a Ladies high heel shoe (stilletto) the heel seat is counter sunk by the distance between the natural heel point and the graphical heel point. many a times this DIFFERENCE is a 1/2" but this is not a difinative amount. It depends on the foot. So on profile you would find level to the floor at breast of heel and find your "wedge angle" to where stright ramp would be and then mark 1/2" down from the center of the wedge angle. Measure the distance of the heal seat and swing a compass to create a "pocket" for the heel to rest in. I have seen illustratons in "American Last Making" Adrian, and although his ladies high heel shoes do not counter sink by 1/2" they do dip down in the heel seat area.

If you counter sink the heel into the wedge angle, you allow the os to 'HOOK' and thus reduce sliding possiblity.


Just a thought....

Marlietta
Lastmakingschool.com

Paul,

I wore this toe for many years...maybe 20 of the 35+ I have been wearing boots. The first pair I made for myself had this toe--I wanted Mike Ives to show me how to do it. I wore that toe nearly constantly day in and day out until about ten-fifteen years ago when I made a back-leaning version of it. You saw those boots in Guthrie. I also made the back-leaning version for my blue-topped elephant boots which are two and a quarter heels. Eventually, I went to a wide round toe and an inch and three-eighths inch heel for my work boots. I never wore anything narrower but I think I could have...it's just extending the last a bit for the cockroach killers.


Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

(Message edited by dw on November 22, 2010)

Paul,

Nice Boot! Very good lookn; Like the toe.

Acording to the pedigraph above, it looks like you swung the toe right. he/she was arrow straight from heel to toe and it doesn't look like you clipped the first met at all. I also note that they seemed to pronated a bit.

-Marlietta

"The simple questions are the most difficult to answer. Who am I ?" (Albert Einstein)

Or

do I need to twist?

Andre

WATCH OUT! HERE COMES THE FIRE HOSE!!!!!! [img]http://www.thehcc.org/forum/images/old_smilies/proud.gif"%20ALT=":O[/img]

Thorough a study done by Mr. R Schwarts in 1937 found that the structure and functions of the bones, joints, ligaments, tendons, and muscles of the leg and foot, both In the stationary support and the propulsion in motion of the weight of the body there is a natural malalinement in axes and shape of the bones of the leg and foot. Thus, to produce and maintain a condition of equilibrium in the weight bearing functions of the foot, maintain a strong posture and prevent the pronation or lowering of the medial longitudinal arch as well as to preserve the natural propelling functions of proper portions of the forefoot, an adjustment to the last shall be made as to reduce fatigue and promote natural and easy functions instance and gait.

Solution of the problem of providing proper shoe construction naturally begins with a consideration of the structure and functions of the bones, joints, ligaments, tendons, and muscles of the leg and foot in regard to both stationary support and propulsion in motion of the weight of the body.

The foot may be regarded, for example, as generally divided into three parts, namely, the heel, the outer lateral midfoot portion and the forefoot portion, and of the representation of an impression of the foot. The heel is the first to strike the ground in walking, and its chief function is to receive and support the weight,eeither stationary or while the body is In motion. The outer lateral midfoot portion assists,- and stabilizes the function of the heel in supporting the weight which is progressively transmitted to it from the heel in walking. The forefoot portion has as its chief function the propulsion of the weight forward in walking.

The heel portion and associated portions of the tarsus are more directly located under the weight bearing structure of the leg including : the tibia, to perform the chief weight bearing function. The outer lateral midfoot, formed by the outer longitudinal arch comprising with the os calcis the cuboid and outer metatarsal bones, is padded along the longitudinal outer side of the foot and adapted to assist in the weight bearing function, not only by stabilizing stationary support on the heel, but by receiving the weight progressively from the heel as the body moves forward. As the weight is shifted forward the forefoot portion grips the ground, particularly the inner side of the foot and the great toe, and the tendons of the inner longitudinal arch normally supply, with the ligaments and muscles of the leg, the propelling force for the forward motion of the body. The normal result in walking is that the extreme rear of the heel first strikes the ground, receives the weight, transmits it along the outer longitudinal arch in what is known as the "cuboid stream" to the forefoot portion across which the weight rolls medially inward to the region of the great toe "in the scaphoid stream", which latter supplies the forward propulsion. These foot portions and the many elements associated in their respective processes must be maintained in normal posture and functional relation in order to prevent unbalance, fatigue and inefficient action in both stance and gait.

A great number and variety of feet have been examined, including normal and abnormal cases, with particular reference to the provision of suitable shoe construction for both PREVENTING AND OVERCOMING foot defects. This study has been facilitated by the development and use of analytical equipment, for method and means of recording the gait and muscle functioning of animate bodies. Such equipment has afforded means for intensive and precise analysis of the effect on such foot action of shoes constructed to aidnormal and overcome abnormal functioning of the foot. Such studies have indicated that the medial longitudinal arch is controlled by the position of the os calcis. That is„ to say, that if the os calcis and heel of the foot is retailed in a position which prevents or corrects pronation, the lowering of the medial longitudinal arch is prevented. If the heel, from the time of its first contact with the ground, is positioned to compensate for the normal malalinement of the processes of the foot and the leg of which it is structurally and functionally a part, pronation and its resulting defects, in a great majority of instances is avoided. This is confirmed by the familiar fact that the rear edge of the bottom surface of the heel is usually worn away toward the outer side in most shoes, thus indicating the normal tendency of the foot to assume, in its initial contact with the ground, the outward inclination accomplished by shoes constructed in accordance with this illustration showing the left foot:



Whereas Mr. R. Freeman in 1943 did another Scientific study of the natural walking gait showing that the weight of the foot is first taken on the heel, then in rapidly rolling rotation from the small toe to the large toe along the outside of the foot onto the ball of the foot when the large toe shoves the body forward in a lever like action as the heel is again raised in the walking gait.


Dr. Arthur Steindler, professor of orthopedic surgery,. University of Iowa, 1943 states the foot action as follows: "In walking, the foot is placed on the ground heel first: it then rolls over the outer border until the contact reaches the ball of the foot." As what was also stated in the study done by shwartz.

This usage of the foot is better understood upon considering the problem of balance in walking. One foot is taking the support of the body from the time the heel contacts the ground until the large toe leaves the ground, when the weight is shifted to the other foot. This swinging shift of body weight in walking motion is best accomplished by the "rolling over the outer border of the foot" as fully described and discussed by Dr. Steindler in his treatise "Mechanics of Normal and Pathological Locomotion in Man."

When the foot functions in this normal and natural manner, the tendons and muscles.supporting the bone structure of the foot are utilized in effective coacting relationship to produce the almost effortless walking gait. Further it is worthy of note that such natural foot action induces a slightly toeing in stride typical of those bare footed societies. Much attention and study has been given the intricate bone structure of the foot with its longitudinal and transverse arches. This intricate bone structure is dependent upon interconnected tendons and muscles to protect and keep these bones in proper functional relationship. Fallen arches are not due to bone failures per se: the failure of the tendons and muscles supporting the arches cause the arch to fail. One authority aptly states the case: "The integrity and form of the foot is entrusted first to the ligamentous and second to its muscular apparatus."
Moreover, the effectiveness of these ligaments and muscles in their coaction with the bone structure is largely dependent on the proper sequence of their use, because these tensioning ligaments are built up in an underlying coacting relationship with the bone structure that produces effective mechanical advantage in the foot arches. A study of the under surface of the foot showing continuations of tendons from leg muscles as shown in Toldts Anatomical Atlas, clearly shows that the tendons from the toes overlie each other with the little toe tendon on the bottom and all intertwined under the inside of the foot. The tensioning of these tendons in the sequence induced by the gradual shifting of the weight from the little toe to the large toe produces a mechanical advantage to the foot arch that permits the arch to easily and naturally resist the stresses imposed; Further, when thus used, the foot functions in the natural slightly toed-in manner: contrarywise, when the weight is shifted along the inside of the foot, a toed-out gait is induced which puts unnatural stress on the arch of the foot and may finally result in a series of foot ills ranging from bunions to broken arches.










IN the above illustration he shows the left foot showing his improved shoe design. He provided a structure which positively induces the foot to function in the natural manner by mechanically holding the heel firmly upright while slidably inclining the foot outwardly to carry the weight in the "roll over the outer border" manner until it rests on the ball of the foot. The structure for accomplishing the above result largely resides in the heel and sole design of the shoe.

Although muscle tone for modern feet' varies from the flabby feet of the sedentary office worker to the hard muscled feet of the professional ball player, In his study he concluded that all muscular tissue should be positioned in the proper relationship to function in this one natural way. It will be appreciated that soft flabby foot muscles will not assume their proper form and functions—in fact they promptly tend to assume misshapen shapes that are ill adapted to their natural function. It was his theory that regardless of muscle tone, the foot should be molded and held in proper form for natural co-acting relationship of the muscles and bone structure. When this is done, the muscles tend to function properly and the ill results of misplaced muscle tissue followed by mlslocated bone structure are avoided."

-Marlietta
Lastmakingschool.com

(Message edited by Last_maker on November 22, 2010)

Qote from Golding Volume 1 Pg. 245 he states:

"Twist,

Finally there is the question of "twist" in a last. By this is meant the relative transverse positions of the seat and forepart. If the seat is rotated towards the inside from the central line of the forepart, the shape is said to be twisted. On the other hand, if the seat is moved more towards this central line, the shape is made straighter.
When judging the twist of a last it can be done either in relation to the border outlines of the last or the sole shape. The last may appear straight with relation to one but twisted relative to the other.

For the average foot the last should have a border outline which is practically straight and the insole SHOULD BE A LTTLE TWISTED.

There is also another state of twist to be considered. Suppose a person views a last longitudinally along the bottom with the toe away from the observer. Consider an imaginary tangential plane to the centre of the seat, and one to the tread or contact point. Then if the planes are parallel there is no twist. If they are inclined at an angle there is some twist.

It is generally accepted that there should be some twist, with the forepart plane raised towards the inside of the last. This feature is considered to prevent "RUNNING OVER" of the footwear. In some cases lasts are made with no such twist, but never should the forepart plane be inclined above the seat plane on the outside of the last".

Apparetnly, golding also agreeing with Al, Mr Swartz and Freeman. Further, Mr Golding points out about the angle of the ball which I am calling a radiazed ball but he is calling it twist.

just a thought...

Marlietta
Lastmakingschool.com

(Message edited by last_maker on November 22, 2010)

Great post Marlietta,
if possible, can you give a pic of one of your insoles regarding twist? Guess it's clear what you posted, but just to be sure.
--------------------------------------------------
"The normal result in walking is that the extreme rear of the heel first strikes the ground, receives the weight, transmits it along the outer longitudinal arch in what is known as the "cuboid stream" to the forefoot portion across which the weight rolls medially inward to the region of the great toe "in the scaphoid stream", which latter supplies the forward propulsion"
--------------------------------------------------

This can been seen in my pic above with the red line, only that my lines are not perfect (who has a perfect foot?)

Are you suggesting the back of the lasts to be like in the pics above? Or are you suggesting support from the insole?
Andre

Marlietta,

Great pix! Just got to see them at my offuice on high speed. Thanks, glad you're liking this discussion too.

Marlietta,

Loved the fire hose--it all makes perfect sense to me. Glad I'm not nuts

This last sentence in Golding says it all IMO:

------------------------------
"In some cases lasts are made with no such twist, but never should the forepart plane be inclined above the seat plane on the outside of the last".
----------------------------

BTW, the Brits use the term "twist" to refer to what we call "swing", as well as what we call "twist".

As long as we now know that twisting the heel-seat plane independently of the joint-line plane of a last is a control-factor old timers used to "dial" like we dial knobs on a hi-fi. Now it only remains for us to learn how to use it all over again to better effect in our lasts to avoid inviting pronation immedicable after heel-strike, thus NOT effectively short-circuiting "cuboid stream" down the strong side of the foot to "scaphoid stream":

-------------------------------
receives the weight, transmits it along the outer longitudinal arch in what is known as the "cuboid stream" to the forefoot portion across which the weight rolls medially inward to the region of the great toe "in the scaphoid stream", which latter supplies the forward propulsion.
----------------------------

The defense rests your honours

Al, Marlietta...

Hey, "we're" the defense! And the defense yields.

Now that we have, ostensibly, resolved this issue, I want to come back to where I started and explore how to introduce "twist" to a last...especially a factory last.

Is it acceptable to grind a plantar wedge from the heel seat area or must the forepart and backpart be rotated in opposition to each other to accomplish this? Because one of the things I don't like about the twisted last...as I mentioned fairly early on...is that the back of the heel seems to be tilted on the West End last that is the exemplar for this approach.

Plus I've got a few lasts that I'd like to modify "on the fly," as who should say...if it can be done.

Of course, I suspect it is critical that a standard be established, or referenced, specifying how much medial heel twist is appropriate for the normal healthy foot? Any thoughts?

So...we're destined to make ugly shoes until someone can demonstrate a reliable and consistent method to level the heel seat without negating the "twist." I'm not saying it can't be done...I'm just saying "I'm from Missouri...you gots to show me."



I thank you...Al and Marlietta...for taking the time. I hope I will always be able "pivot" when necessary. But I could probably write a monograph myownself on how the bone structure of the skull thickens as we get older.

I'm happy now, though.


Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

Andre _______________________________________________________________________

Are you suggesting the back of the lasts to be like in the pics above? Or are you suggesting support from the insole?
__________________________________________________

I am suggesting that the heel be wedged and supported from the medial side as Al has stated eloquently above. The swing, twist, shape, cone and many other parts of the last play an important roll in the symphonic mechanisms that is the last thus the boot or shoe.

Now if you follow Meyers theory to the tea of an insole, you are going to pronate and the sole will be twisted which will make your feet run over to the inside of the footwear especially in closed footwear such as a boot. then if you want to try to fight this, you will need to wedge more medially. It both works with the foot at heel strick and then fights with supinate/pronate propulsion. If you want the look of a Meyers sole shape with out the pronating effect and clipping off of the little toes, it is better to line up the outside of the foot on a straight line to the ball break. Divide the ball break in thirds. The closest to the one third that is on top of the center of the first met is where the tip of your toe box should be for this design. Use a ships curve to draw your toe box to that line. This will follow the outside and allow the roll over the ball break then toe off.

All in all the sole shape should line up with the intended foot, not some theory.


Al
=========================================
BTW, the Brits use the term "twist" to refer to what we call "swing", as well as what we call "twist".
===================================================================

Yes in my research, I found this to be true. It is confusing when taken out of context, however upon reading further, it becomes clear that they mean swing instead of twist. In a conversation recorded by a shoemaker first meeting Ellis, he refers to the state of the current shoes as twisted shoes, in his discussed.

=============================================================
As long as we now know that twisting the heel-seat plane independently of the joint-line plane of a last is a control-factor old timers used to "dial" like we dial knobs on a hi-fi. Now it only remains for us to learn how to use it all over again to better effect in our lasts to avoid inviting pronation immedicable after heel-strike, thus NOT effectively short-circuiting "cubiod stream" down the strong side of the foot to "scaphoid stream":

========================================================================

I believe Creating a last shape is like sculpture & fashion design if you drape it a certain way, it makes the footwear behave in curtain manor. Lets take footwear pattern making for example. Lets also look at springing the waist as a further example. If you don't spring the waist enough or to much, the upper doesn't behave on the last like you'd want it to. The problem I run into with commercial lasts is that I do not know what the operator was thinking when he/she was designing that last. What the last was intended for, how they wanted the footwear to behave and so on, therefore, it is actually difficult for me to use commercial lasts and I wouldn't know where to start to remodel one for a proper twist (perhaps a skill I will learn in my continuing quest for last making knowledge). It is not that I am a snoot or too good for them, obviously they are well designed. For me, I can't relax and just use them for I don't understand what the operator was thinking. If you shape your own, you know what you were thinking and how you want the cubiod stream and the scaphoid stream to behave. As a last maker, you have the ability to at least try to control the foot pair into a healthy stride.

Call me nuts; originally, my teacher did, until he saw its value. If you sculpt the intended last pair before you make the actual, last you can figure out the planes and controls. What I mean is, carve it out of an additive subtractive substance so you can see and watch what you are doing come to life. Once you have attained this intended shape, then carve it out of wood or go through a mould making process to duplicate it in plastic. This is a more artisans' fine art approach than a lastmaking approach but it works for me. Although Fine art in its upscale impression, is always figured out with drawings, doodles, and if intended sculptured clay before the final bronze is made. It is not the easiest or fastest way to model a last but it is a way to control the "dials" before sculpting the last. As one gets more attuned to last making, they can see these planes and dial them out of an empty blank slate, wood, bronze, mud, marble if you will, or even a commercial last...what ever floats your boat. This is what the master's eye learned. How to tune with out sculpting twice. However, I still teach sculpting twice, or sculpt once, mould once. It has more control than hacking up a hunk of wood and then asking,..what happened????.

I will agree that some masters were very, very good, and paid attention to the foot and mechanics of which to go on to shaping a last comfortably. However, from the 1800's as indicated from historical articles and the like, what I have found is that it was the straight last vs. the foot last argument. Trying to utilize a foot, as a last is not a new concept. In fact, in the paper Ellis wrote, he indicates strongly that the foot should be the last. Frank Plunket wrote a book Introduction to boot and shoe manufacturing. In it, he indicates that some utilize a foot cast as a last. However, the factories showed that a foot could not be a last, but swinging a last to accommodate the foot, was a better design. Many of us 100 years or more later disparage footwear manufacturing. But it is they who perfected last design and continue to strive to do so. However, at the start of the industrial revolution factories had to make shoes that people would buy. A book called heavenly soles, it indicates that during this time, women were coming of age in fashion where they no longer wanted to be the "weaker sex" held back by their feet, thus they demanded more comfortable shoes. Orthopedists where slamming the manufactures for the state of feet in that time and many medical peoples were against the factories, yet the sales of shoes rose. (Quite honestly, it is not the factories fault that people insist on cramming their feet into an unhealthy shape. The person does that all on their own). The convenience to be able to simply buy a pair out weighed the factors of healthy feet. No more, wait time for shoes, or if the footwear maker didn't like you, making you wait. Therefore as a completive edge, research continued to learn how to "dial a last" for manufacturing and create comfortable footwear. Those that did, won, by having higher sales, Brown shoe company, one of the oldest survived as a manufacturers in the 20th century, for they did pay attention to both comfort and design. Those that kept to the "old methods" lost. So I am not saying that the old timers didn't know all, but "Your honor", I suggest, that there were not as many " that knew" as we pay homage to or that they knew any more than we do. Human knowledge is collective. It comes from many sources. The knowledge is in books, it's in doing, it's in many of the B/S makers hands, if one thought about it. The masters made lasts AND footwear, thus, I believe they were controlling their outcome, "dialing" into how they wanted the footwear to behave on the foot pair. You have to remember that the last was the nuisance labor that the footwear maker "had" to do in order to get his work out. Like the dress form, it was not regarded as valuble process simply an arduous task that "lost "the maker 7-8 hours of work time. We go on and on trying to prove why the mechanisms of the lasts are there. They simply wanted to get their work done and out so they could get paid.

Still each had their theories based on their clientele as DW pointed out earlier. " We are our best footwear guinea pigs" and critics I might add, we make shoes for others and ourselves and we develop our own style based on what we believe is right for our style of making. As a result, our lasts reflect this.

Therefore, my point is, Al, I think that your knowledge is vast and that you about know what the masters knew too. I think many of the B/S makers of some several years and experience can look at what they do to remodel a last for a specific client and in what they do, is the knowledge. I think many of you skillful footwear makers take confidence that you do know and stop pounding yourselves worshiping an unknown mystery. But, of course, that is simply my opinion.

marlietta
Lastmakingschool.com

D.W.

Your questioning, doubt and sticking to your ideas is what brought out the information. So I don't think it is necessary for an expose on head thickening, Infact, if every one followed the cow that is going to slaughter as a good idea, we'd be all dead! [img]http://www.thehcc.org/forum/images/old_smilies/proud.gif"%20ALT=":O[/img]


-Marlietta