One "Last" Question

[artzend]

Courtney

Although the information from others is to add to the bottom of the last, I would add the extra allowance for the orthotic to the top of the last, adding to the bottom must change the toe spring and heel height. Get your new joint and instep measurements from standing on the orthotic and measuring around everything.

Don't forget to add the extra thickness of the orthotic at the heel to the back height of the shoe when you last up. You still want the top of the shoe to clip to your heel in the right place or you will walk out of the shoe.

I may be wrong, but I never added to the bottom of the last and I made a lot of shoes for orthoses over the years.

It looks as though the orthotic sticks out a bit under your arch, so add some build up to the last at that height from the bottom or the topline will distort. Does it need to protrude so much there? It seems to me that it serves no purpose when it reaches past your foot.

You can also trim back the length in front of your foot, this would mean that you can lower the depth over the toe. Make sure that you are not stepping over the end though, make it like a sock pattern.

Changing your last is probably counter productive at this stage as you have an orthotic that has been built to correct your stance, and just need to put it in an existing shoe. The orthotic has a flat base so it will fit the flat shape of an insole.

I am not an orthopedic shoemaker, but the orthopedic side appears to have been sorted.

Tim
www.shoemakingbook.com

[janne_melkersson]

Courtney
"Janne, it sounds like you are just telling me how to cut the insole to the shape of my foot,
I have already done that is that all your saying to do or do you mean to carve out the arch and build a rounded ball joint treadline, etc?"

If you want to make an footbed as in the old days then you have to sculpture the last rounded from behind the ball and around the heel acording to the footimprint and build the footbed with straight edges so you can put on the insole. In your case you will probably not need that because from what I can see your feet are in the "normal" range and what you need is support in the waist on the medial side which is "no" problem to create on the last. This is supposed to be included in every bespoke last, at least from the tradition I am comming from.

I am glad to hear you know Michael, he have been in my shop for a coupple of weeks and I have been in his. Talk to him about this becasue he build his last pretty much the same way as I do so he will know what you are asking about and he is the master of making lasts that gives support on the medial side.

I have been in the orthopeadic trade since 1979 but I have only once made an insert the way yours are done for a bespoke custom but I was not happy with the result. Some 30 years ago inserts was something for factory shoes. On Orthopedic and bespoke shoes we builded footbeds.

"Thanks for taking the time to post when I know your not feeling your best."
No problem, now I have the time to sit infront of the screen :-)

Janne

[courtney]

Thank you guys, I'm sure I'll come up with more questions, but that all sounds like good info.
Now I guess I just have to experement a little.

Courtney

[courtney]

/image{buildup}
/image{orth}

If I was to build up the last for the orthotic would this be the way to do it? the bottom of the orth is pretty close to the last and then flares out to cup my heel. Obviously i have to build up to make it fit but then to blend it in it seems like I have to put material where its not needed but I dont see any other way.

What do you guys think?

Also the picture of the orthotic shows the top cover flops over the hard plastic part, can I trim that flush or will the edges rub my foot?

Thanks,
Courtney

[courtney]

11701.jpg

11702.jpg

[artzend]

Courtney,

As far as I am concerned, yes you do have to build out where the orthotic will press on the sides of the finished shoe. If you don't, it will push on the inside of the shoe and distort the topline. If you were fitting a foot of that width, you would build the last to fit it.

Tim

[courtney]

Thanks Tim,
So my drawing is pretty much right then?
I saw in your book you say to trace the profile, so I should make the build up the same kind of wedge shaped taper on the sides?
Anything else you can think of that might help?

Anybody else experienced in this have anything to add?

Thanks again,
Courtney

[last_maker]

O.k. I have a question.

I realize I am opening myself up to be eaten alive here, but I want the input of the old time pro's on this site as to thier knowlegable experience tells them.

Thus, i would like to open a conversation of collective insite regarding the last clip and the different clipping of different footwear lasts of classical boot and shoe styles.

I am working on a way to better explain last clipping to myself and others. A way, if you will, in expanding my skills. The last clip is the area that corresponds to an area of the foot that runs along the lateral and medial border of
the foot to the navicular( top bone of the foot often called the instep bone) and instep.

The last is thinner along the comb, especially in shoe lasts BUT BY HOW MUCH??????. I am always asked this. When I could ask my previous teachers so I can better explain it to my self and others they give me the same answer: A matter of style.......

Now we all know what a cone is....But the last clip works in tandum with the cone and heel curve.

Clipping a last works by assisting the footwear to "clamp" to the foot. I know how I do it, However, I want to know how other experience shoe and model makers here on the site do it.

Is there a formula that you use to clip the last in relation to the foot to shoe style?? That question itself is what I seek the answer to.

So my question is as such:

what is the diffence in clipping a cowboy boot
last vs. clipping a field boot, slip on boot, zipper button or other
enclosure boot, vs. a high top tennis shoes.

The differnce between cliping a pump last vs. mule or sandal. In clipping
mens shoe last, Derbie, oxford,. I have been observing and hand shaping lasts for quite a while, yet I still find my self stumped in this area of EXPLAINING proper last clipping of the classical boot and shoe styles. It is why, I was
reading golding during the time Lance had his question. Searching for answers.


for example, If I have a square block of maple in front of me. I have a drawn sole shape and profile completed and measurements, and a foot model in front of me to remind me of the proper measurements. I know that boot lasts are fuller. But in relation to the
foot how much does one take away in relation to the foot or if looking at
a foot model. Is it a 1/2" or 1/4" is there an amount? When clipping a slip on boot last, I go according to the width of the malliolus, and then clip from there, but that doesn't really give a better explaination. Clip by exactly how much???? Thus, I want to know if others have a better way to explain clipping when they have a blank block of wood in front of them and are shaping according to a profile, sole shape and foot model in front of them.

When I study different manufacturers lasts, I observe that in some style lasts, the
clip goes down further than others styles even comparing the same style of boot or shoe. In a pump last, obviously it
has to be very clipped because of it's low riding nature and lack of
material over the tarsal and metatarsal bones.

So if someone could explain something like making a derbie lastfor example, than you will want to clip _x____ amount
from the maliolus to the __x_____ area. You will want to make sure that
there is less of a hollow in the instep area to prevent crinkling over the
vamp. Where as if you are making a pump last you will need to clip
____X____ amount from the ______X____ area to the ____X____ area.
Therefore creating a clean clamp and smooth shoe appearance. the "X"
represents that areas that are currently unknown as to point A to point B areas. I understand
where the clip begins but where it ends seems to depend on the type of
shoe and how much is taken out tends to depend on the type of footwear. But is there a formula that you all use????

I am working on each classical footwear and clipping it:

derbie
bromaral
Oxford
pump with heel
pump with out heel
sandal
high heel sandals
mule shoe
clog
tennis shoe

8.2.4 Shaping Boot lasts
Cowboy
Riding
Ladies Fashion boot
Slip on boot
Zipper, button, or other
enclosure boot
UGG Boot
No heel/flat-soled boot
Skate boots
High top tennis shoe

So if any of you have some insite into this better way to explain clipping the classical boot and shoe styles and to how much to clip compared to the foot, I would greatly appreciate it.

I think this conversation would be also very benificial to others on this site who are trying to understand last making and fitting as well.

Marlietta

[paul]

Marlietta,

Pictures!

At the risk of beating a dead horse, (and my apologies for any mis-taking of this);

It seems like the use of pictures of what you have done in the past to accomplish what you are refering to, would make it a practical conversation, and more than just academic.

Pictures. I'm a slow reader.

Come on. You can do it. Instructions are in the Formatting section to the left. Others have worked through the process. Show us you can to.

Paul

[last_maker]

paul,

I PM'd you earlier this year. My offer is still good!! you can also look at the brochure link on my site.

I am looking for others who have modeled lasts and what they do. I belive my question might help others who are trying to shape thier own lasts don't you think?. Thus, I do NOT want to make this about my accomplishments, OR brag about me or how I can or can not do something. I am trying to pull out information of others expereince in clipping a last for the verious classical shoe styles. I think it is a valid question that may not only help me but others too, don't you think???

How about you join in. What do you know about cliping a last??? how much, how far, how little....

What is your experience???

What have you observed?????

go ahead, slowly read.

-Marlietta

[last_maker]

So just to be clear, I am not playing devils advocate for the sake of entertainment here, I really do want to know if anyone else knows about clipping the last for the classical boot and shoe styles as in my orginal question.
Any input would be greatly appreciated here and a great help. thanks much

-Marlietta

[1947redhed]

Marlietta,
Try searching for posts by Bill Tippett under the words "cleaned out last". At some point in the last 18 months there was a discussion about last types appropriate for different styles of footwear. some clues may be there.

Georgene

[1947redhed]

This post has diagrams and measurements with the text:

By Bill Tippit Sr. on Tuesday, July 15, 2008 - 09:06 pm: Edit Post

Georgene

[last_maker]

Thanks georgene for the clue, I'll have a look. Any one else????

Marlietta

[das]

Marlietta,

This is hard without pixs (I don't own a digi-cam either), but in a nutshell my thoughts are these:

1. Clipping in a last ("cleaning-out" as per Tippit), thinning the comb ("island" Tippit), is one control-factor in last design that affects how tightly the top-line of the shoe will pinch in holding the foot, or the throat of the finished shoe will gap and not grip onto the wearer's foot so well.

2. For certain types of shoe you do not need/want as much last-induced "clipping". For others you might need to over compensate with clipping. Open-throated shoes, or ones with long openings need to clip tighter than short-quartered shoes of a more robust nature--it just depends. E.g. a man's 6-eye closed-tab Oxford that laces high up onto the instep does not need to clip as much as a woman's 2-eye open-tab Derby that laces lower down the foot.

3. Most lasts, especially old factory lasts, of any style can usually be dramatically improved by thinning the comb on both sides to increase tightness or "clipping". You can't "hurt" much by thinning the comb IOW. In fact I doubt that thinning/clipping could be over-done to the degree the shoes might be spoiled, because the foot spreads the throat open once it is in the shoe. Furthermore, the top-line of the quarters sit somewhat further down the last from the island anyway, so it's the thickness of the last at the top-line that affects clipping. Thinning it out too much weakens the last, and of course if you have a steel thimble or socket in the "island" you don't want to bugger that up by thinning down to a knife-edge island or something.

4. The comb or "island" on the best handmade bespoke lasts is generally much narrower side to side than comparable mass-production factory lasts, but then the bespoke lasts do not usually have thimbles, or need to stand-up to the heavy abuse of factory assembly that could break delicate thin bits. What your eye wants to see here is strongly influenced by the lasts you're accustomed to seeing. If one has mostly seen ex-factory lasts, they might be shocked at how narrow the comb is commonly on bespoke lasts, and visa versa. If one is most familiar, say, with plaster casts and very anatomical lasts based on feet, factory lasts will seem narrow, and bespoke lasts might appear insanely thin in the comb.

5. When I slip a last out of a finished shoe, I like to see the top-line tend to close-up more than when on the last (some of this is achieved by the #2 and #3 daft pulls when lasting the upper too, the ones that set up lines of tension roughly running directly from "CP" lengthways to either side of the toe--unknown in factory/machine-lasting). With the exception of the "fattest" feet/ankles, tight clipping usually results in a superior "glove" fit in the quarters. And with women's pumps, for example (I don't make these), it should help keep the person from walking out of the shoe, since the quarters clipping tighter helps hold the shoe on.

6. Some of this effect (tighter top-line) can be achieved via accentuating/increasing the heel-curve at the back of the last too, but for some styles/feet where the heel-curve needs to be relatively straight up and down on purpose, the only way to affect "clipping" is by "cleaning-out" or thinning the sides of the comb. NB--18thc into 19thc lasts were ramrod straight up the back of the heel, and our forbears controlled the tightness of the top-line in the quarters by dramatically thinning the sides of the comb (and hand-lasting, plus curved "draft" reductions in the side-seams). Some antique lasts look like a triangle from the back, with hollowed sides, and an island scarcely 1/2" wide most of the way from the feather-line upwards! These delicate combs would not survive factory machines/methods of assembly however

7. Some people's feet are not very rounded up the back of the heel, and an accentuated heel-curve risks the top-line at the back-seam cutting painfully into their Achilles tendon, or pushing the foot forward in the shoe away from nestling into the stiffener/counter--so the only way to adjust how tightly the quarters clip onto these feet is by reducing the comb thickness.

For laced ankle boots on up to taller pull-on boots, the last comb is much thicker. BTW--the above details only pertain to under-the-ankle shoes. IOW it's an easy way to distinguish a boot last from a shoe last by looking at the thickness of the comb, otherwise sometimes it's hard to tell.

[paul]

Marlietta, I think you'll find my input to your prompting in my comments below, but I wish to apologize for sounding so confrontational. I think I was out of line.

Wow Al.

Did I learn alot from that!
I guess we have Marlietta to thank for bringing the question to the forum.

Really Al, thank you for your in-depth and uniquely insightful instruction. I almost understand it enough to start making shoes again.

I struggled with just this issue last year, and feel like I lost 5 months failing to learn it even the hard way. Tippit tried to help and give me what I needed, but not being a shoe maker, his perspective left me with only half of the picture. Your answer, so generously given, is the beginning of rest of the story.

To make matters worse for me at that time, the customer in my situation was a "princess and the pea" kinda guy. You may remember my rant, and my frustration as I struggled to make this slipper with elastic instep.

11889.jpg

11890.jpg

11891.jpg

I think the problem was made worse by his hyper-sensitivity. But furthermore, I never got to see the customers feet, and measure for myself (which one could say, was unfair to the customer). To Bills credit, he tried to give me all I needed, including alot of time and understanding, but I can see what I was really lacking was the necessary previous experience to serve him adequately.

But the explanation you've just made of why lasts for certain stlyes of footwear need "cleaning out", makes sense to me.

If I may say so, and just to state the obvious, I think I understand it better is because you are a Master Maker. It's like what you have just shared with us, is the foundation for further observed experience of our own.
The next pair of shoes I make, no matter what their style, will be influenced by this.
Even on the bench right now, there are boots for three pair of very low volume feet that will benefit from this perspective applied to them. (And much thanks to DW for finally getting the importance of the Long Heel measurement in pull on boots through my thick head.)

Recently on the Lasting thread, Nasser expressed that to really understand the secrets (particularly pattern making), one needs to be a maker. I can see that being a maker, gives one the experiential information to be a real professional.

This may have some to do with Marlietta's question. To know "how much" especially for bespoke, one learns by doing.
We don't become makers by reading, studying and writing about shoe/boot/last making. We learn by doing.

[dearbone]

Brother Al,

Thank you,I am speechless,What an informative essay!,As much as i dislike praise,I have to say you are indeed a Shoe maker and Scholar. I think i have a load of "Cleaning-out" to do after all this.

Regards
Nasser

[das]

Paul & Nasser,

Glad you liked that. I was awake really early this AM, sipping tea in my bathrobe and feeling prosaic

Seriously though, glad to be of help. Being used to 18thc lasts (the skinniest combs), and bespoke London lasts (2nd skinniest), when I get old 20thc factory lasts to customize I first go to the sander to "clean out" the back part as thin as possible (for low shoes) and am pleased with the results.

[last_maker]

Al,


Thank you so very much for taking the time to spell out clipping the last. It was good of you. I appreciated the more indepth explaination than: "It's a matter of design". that answer is so hollow. There is nothing to "bite" into and use.

Sorry I didn't respond right away, I was away from my computer for the last day or so.

-Marlietta

[last_maker]

Paul,

Again, I don't want to make this about me.... Or show off my stuff or anything of the like. Hence I won't be posting my lasts!!! I think that is what we have websites for... Even then, we have a choice

Lasts are a tool to footwear making, not the final product.

You make a statement such as........" This may have some to do with Marlietta's question. To know "how much" especially for bespoke, one learns by doing. We don't become makers by reading, studying and writing about shoe/boot/last making. We learn by doing."

Your inferance is that I do not do...I do not make.....presuming i am not doing... but stitting behind a desk and calling the shots....being acedemic only.....Which isn't fair to me. I seak knowlege and others experience. I belive that is what this forum is for. An open communitcation of exchange of ideas, education and experience. I belive we should do this cordially and with out challenge.

I Have shaped and carved many lasts, felt the process, makers have made footwear on them. However, It is always wonderful to get other's input as to what they do if they have last making/shaping expereience, what thier experience is and so on. Today's cad programs can do all this shaping and clipping for us, but the challenge is when we model it by hand, for each and every customer. When we do so, it becomes a unique design even with in the classical styles. How it fits, how it looks, what it's form is. The last is the armature in which the footwear is formed and APEARS!! As a hand model maker, you have control over the appearance of the footwear.

I can get expereience till I am blue in the face, but am I really going down the right experience road???? Am I developing bad habits????? If there is another way that is better or more understood, or effecient method or a different perspective, a more indepth understanding of a process from those who are in the know than with such knowlege, I have the ability to apply it. But If I don't ask the question, the answer doesn't have a chance to be told and new model making learners who read this forum are still perplexed!

This Last clipping question has always bugged me. All of my previous instructors just didn't give me what Al was able to explain. They just said, "it is a matter of design" "You must feel it to know it" "Expereience will tell you" "You should know this by now because of your doing" Of course all of those statements are true, however, from a guide sort of "do this" step by step sort of instruction the statements of "it is a matter of design" "You must feel it to know it" "Expereience will tell you" "You should know this by now because of your doing" is irritating. For one never knows if there is something one is missing or how you could improve your skills. I belive Clipping the last amoung other things, is a valuable skill. I belive Al spelled it out clearly how valuable it really is. It effects the way the shoe works with the foot. Sure feeling it, doing it, and seeing it in action working validates one's skill, but I belive that if one developes a skill but has missing pieces to that skill, they can't be the best they can be at thier craftsmenship!

Even you admit it was an area you discussed in depth with Bill, and still had trouble understanding. did your expereience give you a better understanding? Or,Did having another person's input help?? Thus, now, with a different perspective the second, or third source has now said something that increases your understanding," head knowlege" book learned knowlege" perhaps builds on what Bill said. so with such information you can apply it! With out reading such perhaps questions would have remained unanswered????

I belive with all craftsmenship thier might be areas where one can improve upon and this is an area, I belive I could improve with further knowlege and understanding thus the question.

I belive we all should be able to ask questions with out others insinuations.... I didn't just seak to study it simply for head knowlege. I seek to get information from others who know. I am very greatful to Al's responce and would welcome other's who might also know or would like to take a stab at answering my orginal question: How much does one clip the last starting from a blank block of wood and a foot in front of you to shape?

-Marlietta

[last_maker]

Here is a wonderful saying that came from Rob.... In 2008,...I hope it is o.k. to quote you Rob..


"Looking into this increases our awareness of the why of thing. Not that there are easy answers but by building an understanding of different methods we can only get better at what we love to do."

By Robert Elferink on Wednesday, March 19, 2008 - 07:00 pm

Well said, I could add not more...

Marlietta

[srtango]

I'm new here and shoemaking. I have been trying to make last for dance shoes with my limited woodworking tools. After reading the posts in this website, I really appreciate all the people who are so generous to share their experience/knowledge here.
I would like to share my poor man's crude/simple solution to couple issues discussed here:
I cut a piece of grocery bag and cover it in the inside area of the shoe which I try to copy after. Work the model-making clay soft and stuff it in the shoe. Check the shape of the shoe and correct it to the original as possible. Let the clay harden in cool temperature. Take the clay out and you have something to model after for making last. It's very deceiving to look at the outside shape of a shoe after all the built-up and skiving. All the measurement is a two dimension guideline. It does not tell the three dimension shape very well.
I came to the similar conclusion like something DW said. You can have a perfect foot print/plaster model and all the measurement. To translate it to a shoe last which to built a shoe on, that is comfortable fit and stylish, is an art.
When I finish shaping the last, I draw a diagonal line from the front end of the top to end at the bottom before the heel line. I drill a hole which almost perpendicular to the line on the top with coutersink drill bit. I cut the last along the line using a very thin kerf Japanese saw. I put a long screw in to keep the last together. When done, just unscrew it and the last would come out easily. You need to know how much to compensate if the kerf is significant
I think you can do the similar thing when casting the plaster in the shoe. Do the half casting and let it sit in an angle to harden. Put a piece of plastic to cover it. Fill the rest of the shoe with plaster next. When done, a light knock will break it loose. You can plaster them together to have a complete model.
Thanks to D.A.'s explanation of clipping. I've been working on ballet style shoe. I was totally baffled after making couple of them and the open just collapsed like banana peel. After looking over and over at the pair of last I bought, I came to the conclusion that is the key. Now I can resume the test again.
Joe

[last_maker]

Joe,

It is so awesome that the clipping discussion will help you. I know it is going to help me emensly. I can't praise Al enough for taking the time to make his post of his knowlege.

At the Guilld library, DW has graciously digitized Golding's volume 1 which goes into shaping the lasts. Http://www.thehcc.org/Golding_I.pdf It begins with patterns for boots and shoes and in the second section goes into grave detail of last making. Very useful...


You state:

"When I finish shaping the last, I draw a diagonal line from the front end of the top to end at the bottom before the heel line. I drill a hole which almost perpendicular to the line on the top with coutersink drill bit. I cut the last along the line using a very thin kerf Japanese saw. I put a long screw in to keep the last together".

May I ask What kind of modeling clay you can drill, saw and screw?

A question was posed by Bruce Graham on Wednesday, September 29, 2010 above entertaining duplicating a shoe pair, I think he suggested using a balloon and fillig it up into the shoe. I thought that was genius!! I don't think this is only privy to plaster, I think other mediums could be used too. But by Using a balloon you wouldn't get the wrinkles that a bag provides. It seems to me that it would be a smooth filler up!

Also, Joe, If you don't want to play with clay, you could pour a pourable plastic into the bag or balloon to fill it up to copy the shoes. Personally, I don't like working with plaster. It is dusty and I belive this dust for myself is dangerous. One can get silicosis from plaster dust. Nasty stuff!! But of course this is my personal preferance.

At the school, we use a lastmakers clay which is an HDPE plastic based clay product. It is formulated by a chemical company. It's orginal formula was for cuducting electricity. However, it was reformulated for our purposes and the shaping practice properties we desired for our students courses. However, it is not a permanant solution as a last, it is merly for practice last shaping. A permanant last is made from Por a cast. So my question to you is, what brand of modeling clay are you using? It sounds amazing!

If you used pourable plastic to make your last copy-shoe duplicate, after it hardens, you can glue leather fittings in areas that need more "girth" and use a wood working rasp to take away areas need to make it fit better.

Also, I think in a scoop last, the part that is removable to get the last out of the shoe begins at the top behind the instep and is curved to the ball break cutting off the cone. A hole is drilled into it and a string is strung through the hole to pull it out of the shoe. Also, If you attain a band saw blade #16. Cut a strip of it and place this strip into a felding saw. Clamp it into the saw clamps to use it.by doing so, you can get a smooth cut for your cone removal. You cut band saw blade section with tin snips.

We use at the school Por-a-Kast for lasts but I understand by David Ulan that you can get pourable plastics from smoothon.com.

Another medium I am exploring is machinable wax. It melts but hardens really hard, but is reusable. But again, for teaching purposes, I need this quality.I need my lasts to be meltable and the medium reusable or we would have tons of waste. However, It seems that for your pourposes you probably are looking for a permanant last????

-Marlietta
Lastmakingschool.com

[romango]

Joseph,

Interesting approach. Do you have any pictures?

[last_maker]

So,

I have been reviewing some of the archives looking for what Georgene Mckim sent me to where Bill was discussing clipping the last. However, I have yet to find it. I am not sure if it was under the "last" or "the last question"

So I came acrross this perfect example of people trying to make lasts and could use as much info as possible and especially in the clipping of the last answers from those who know on this site. It appears to me that if Geri had this information back in 2008 she could have gone further with her last making efforts. She made wonderful strides in her efforts. I love this last making attempt Geri! Do you still have the last? Could you now with this new information, finish this last????

So I am going to attempt to post up a picture. here goes......

image{your image here}
{C:\Users\Marliettas account\Desktop\6990[1]}

It is from this thread: http://www.thehcc.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7097 Geraldine Rabey on Saturday, February 23, 2008 - 04:34 pm: