The Crispin Colloquy

Erick,

Marcell had a link to a picture to a picture of a Frobana the other day but I can't remember where it was.

Tim

All,

I've worked with the Frobana a long time ago when I first started out in shoe repair. The machine I've worked with was reliable and after the learning curve a good little machine. The small footprint is a definite plus. I don't know if there are any differences in the Frobana and the Gritzner. This is the model I worked with
The Frobana is mostly used in shoe repair. There is another outsole stitcher on the market, from memory it was called a rafenbuel (sp?). Probably German. It allowed for different size needles and was used for “new work” but that machine was known to be very temperamental.

The one place I would think of for parts is “van der Meiden” machines in Utrecht, the Netherlands. They went belly up a couple of years ago, maybe longer. A search did come up with www.mskbv.nl I don't know who these people are, their website is non functional but I did find a listing for them as dealing with Frobana machines. Don't know if they make parts.

As Al mentioned, Goetz sells the needles and a company called Groz-Beckert still makes needles for the Frobana so they are around. The manufacturer may not sell small in quantities.
Hope this helps,

Rob

No, that is not the machine, here is a link to the page in the forum that has a picture of one like mine:

http://www.thehcc.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5563&p=16071#p16071

down toward the bottom of the page, (past half way).
Whether the needles are the same for both put me in a quandary.

Bunny

I received the manual yesterday. A copy of perhaps a copy. The pictures were very poor, to the point of being not legible. But at least a written description. I have no doubt that I would never have figured out the thread up of this machine without something. It is not just a cut and dried sewing machine. I will have to make a picture list for the next owner, (when ever that might be) to more clearly show the secrets of the thread up and tensioning.

Bunny

(Message edited by ridgerunrbunny on December 30, 2007)

All,

Here's a dress rehearsal for a semi-brogued shoe I have in the works. The toe broguing is not 100% original but it is not a 100% copy either. I see from HMSFM that several makers seem to use the same pattern (a variation of this one) so I felt a little freer to tweak it and make it mine.

The gimping is done with one of Dick's attachments. The antiquing (only partially successful) needs a bit of refinement. But otherwise, I think I'm about ready.



Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

Looking good!

I assume you did the design by hand, one hole at a time. What size are those smaller holes (in the design) and what did you use to punch them?

Rick,

Thanks!

I bought a half run of single hole punches (six of them, I think) in different sizes to match the punches in the broguing tool we got from Goetz. The larger hole is a #8 in the German single punches and the smaller hole is a #2. I also got a #1 (they make a #0) and a #10 as well as a #4 and a #6. Next time I'll fill in the gaps.

Dw,

I to have been playing around with broguing patterns and I also studied HMSFM.I started with a pattern from there then I copied a pattern from a pair of wing tips.I had to use graft paper to understand the technique,tweaking is the best part once your to a good start.I even tried using a pattern on some slippers but messed up during lasting,to fast and to excited.Once the Vibrim soles get here I will post. Happy hunting on that journey.

Ed

Ed,

I had a couple of brogued shoes to look at prior to receiving my tools from Germany....thanks to Al and Lance. So I had a feel for it. Then I used CorelDraw to layout the lines of the pattern and then added the carefully spaced punch points (blend to path). All I have to do is print out that pattern, paste it to the toe cap and punch...right through paper and leather. It's accurate as all get out.

Once the pattern is done in the software it is even possible to grade it up slightly for very large shoes with just a quick click and drag.

Hey, ya gotta love computers!!

They brought us all together, after all.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

DW,

That is really looking sweet.
Yes, I'd say you're 'bout ready.

I'll have to bug Dick. I've been waiting since after the AGM. Maybe he's waititng for me to be the squeaky wheel.

Paul

Thanks Paul. Ready maybe but finding the time is never easy. I'm about to start cutting patterns out of leather though...should have done that this morning but was getting ready (cleaning up ) for a student (Monday).

Also this section on making "counters" for shoes in Golding is very interesting--I'm about to make a Derby, and according to him Derby counters are cut a little different.

Anyway, thanks again and do talk to Dick...

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

ALERT!--E-bay auction for one of those old Singer treadle machines you see in shoe repair shops--item number 180207923054. Pick-up only in MA.

Jenny

I know hornbeam is the traditional wood used for lasts, but do you suppose hard maple would work just as well? I'm probably going to use a full metal plate for the most part on this pair of lasts. the shoes made on it will be nailed/pegged. Which brings me to my next question; What type of nails should I use for this type of construction? Is any one brand better than the other?
Thanks,
-E-

Mystery tool! I need help identifying a tool I purchased from a seller in France via E-bay. It was listed as a cobbler/leatherworking tool. It looked unusual and hard to find, so I figured I'd better buy it It looks like it should be useful for something, but I have no idea for what! Any ideas? Thanks.

Jenny

Hi Jenny
Me again
it is an edge setting Iron. The shaped part is for burnishing a thinned edge like the feather in the shank area. Or the whole sole on a lighter sole with a curve profile. not nessecarly square. And the curved forepart is of burnishing a sole like in the shank area. They are usally heated with an alcohol lamp and wax applied to the sole and edge are heated and rubbed into the leather.
Regards
Brendan

Hi Jenny,

That's a burnishing iron for the heel and other
waxed surfaces. May be heated up with a spirit lamp.

Hi Eric
I have a bunch of old lasts made in Toronto and Montreal 1945. They are made from Maple and some I think it's Beech. Hard as heck. Make sure it is dry, as I have heard from an old lastmaker the blank would crack overnite if it wasn't dry enough.

If you are using a metal plate. I suggest "clinch point shoe Rivets" 17 ga. is what I use you should get a pounds of a few different lenghts. 5/8 and up. They are cheap and your finder should get you what you need. They are softer than a finish nail for wood.
Regards
Brendan

Eric,

I know red Beech wood to be excellent for lasts. I've never tried maple but I don't see that it would be a problem unless it's not as dimensionally stable, that I don't know. Last factories will let the wood dry for up to 2 years after it's cut before making a shoes last. This to ensure it does not shrink, warp or deform.

Good luck on your lasts.

Rob

Jenny,

You can see Marcell use the heel iron in his 5th "how to make shoes" video just passed the 3 and a half minute mark.
I don't know how rare they are as I have no searched for one lately, once you have one they last the better part of a lifetime. Goetz still sells them and I would be surprised if there are no other sources.
Looks like you got yourself a nice specimen.

Rob

Thanks for the advice on the wood folks! Now that we have that out of the way, I have a question about the last pattern. When making a profile tracing of the foot, how much allowance should be added? For example, for practice I traced a profile of my wife's foot. I then drew a line 10mm above the line that runs from the instep to the toes. Is 10mm enough wiggle room? Should it be more or less, or does that depend on the individual characteristics of the foot? Any help you can afford is much appreciated.
-E-
P.S. Is there a text available on the subject of last making?

Erick,

I was always taught...and I think it is the traditional standard...that there should be three full sizes clearance beyond the toe of the foot for medium round toed lasts and at least two full sizes for a wide round last.

One full size = one-third of an inch.
(10mm > one-third inch)

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

Erick,

See Topic "Sabbage's Sectionizer"

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

Erick,

Glad to see other people trying to make lasts. At least as challenging as boot making.

Keoleff's "Last Designing & Making" is very good and available from Larry Waller (Walrus Shoe).

IMO, Maple is the best for lasts, others are substitutes, but have used several woods, including popular, which has a uniform grain and works easily. It might work well with a metal bottom.

Chuck

Eric

I was taught to add 10 - 15 mm in front of the foot to allow room for the toes.

Tim
www.shoemakingbook.com

Check out this guys broguing machine.

http://www.heinrich-dinkelacker.de/bilder.html