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#126 Post by dw » Thu Feb 26, 2004 9:12 pm

All,

What I'm trying to get to here folks, is just some feel for the ultimate demand. Will there be a market for this fellow if he wants to bring it in?

I think I can say with some assurance (and anyone who doubts it can check with Dave Foster at Stevenson-Paxton) that I was helpful, if not instrumental, in getting the Sheridan kangaroo brought into this country. Pardon me if that sounds like a brag, but, simply put, that's all I'm trying to do here...guide and encourage a reseller to carry something we all want.

I'm not looking for orders or immediate committment, I'm not going to be a middleman. I'm not going to have my fingers in any part of the pie. I'm a bootmaker, not a leather dealer.

So if you think you might be interested...maybe more than "think"--if you would be *seriously* interested in a source for the finest leather soles we know of, and on a continuing, long term, basis, I'd like to know about it. So I can pass that info on to my guy.

And having said all that, there's still no guarantee it will all come down like we want it to. But knowing there's a demand will help a great deal.

Thanks

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

http://www.bootmaker.com

shoestring · #127 Post by **shoestring** » Fri Feb 27, 2004 5:29 am

I understand that the "Rendendach"soles are the Rolls Royce of bottom soles but what puts them in that class?Is it the tannage and finish or the lasting of ware to the owner?And what spot light will they put on a boot/shoe that a domestic can not.Just wondering........
Ed

paul · #128 Post by **paul** » Fri Feb 27, 2004 10:11 am

DW,

I'd be interseted in a dozen or two.
Thanks for working on our behalf.

PK

#129 Post by dw » Fri Feb 27, 2004 3:08 pm

Paul,

Thanks for your thanks...

Main thing I was trying to get across was that I wasn't trying to make a profit or even get a Buyer's Consortium going. I tried hard to get Birdsall kangaroo (Sheridan) hooked up with a reseller here in the US because I'm selfish--I wanted to have access to good kangaroo. It's something to think on--what hurts the Trade hurts me...and vice versa.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC
http://www.bootmaker.com

"Little Jack Dandiprat, in a white petticoat,
The longer he lives the shorter he grows."

paul · #130 Post by **paul** » Fri Feb 27, 2004 4:41 pm

DW,

I'm sorry. I just gotta ask. What is this?

"Little Jack Dandiprat, in a white petticoat,
The longer he lives the shorter he grows."

I've read it as your signature for a couple of years now, and to tell the truth, it doesn't make much sense. Maybe that's the point, I don't know. But I sure would like to know what the heck I'm reading.
Come on, tell me, please.

PK

#131 Post by dw » Fri Feb 27, 2004 5:11 pm

Paul,

[chuckle] It's an old saying I got from Wright's The Romance of the Shoe.

A dandiprat was a small, cheap, white candle that shoemakers and lacemakers often used to light up their dim garrets.

The word "dandiprat," itself, originally referred to the coin used to purchase the candle, I believe. But later became associated with the candle itself. The real history buffs can tell you more but suffice it to say that a dandiprat was as familiar to the early shoemakers as their tingles.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC
http://www.bootmaker.com

"Little Jack Dandiprat, in a white petticoat,
The longer he lives the shorter he grows."

#132 Post by dw » Sat Feb 28, 2004 7:13 am

Ed,

The soles we are talking about are acorn tanned (valonia). As I understand it...oak tannage is the very best...*real* oak tannage, not synthetic. There is some sort of physical change in the properties of the fiber and the interconnective tissue that takes place with oak bark tannage that doesn't necessarily happen with any other kind of tanning. I've read about it, and been impressed, but never memorized the details. Acorns are oak and valonia tanning is, from what I've been given to understand, responsible for that same kind of change but yields a firmer, maybe a bit more brittle, leather than straight oak bark.

Rendenbach leather is left in the tanning pits...in the tanning liquor...for at least a year. Again, a good thing. the longer the better.

My experience with Rendenbach has been mixed. I like the leather. I think it wears better than domestically tanned leather. It certainly holds a peg better. My only reservation is that the grain surface is touchy. You can't naumkeg it to speak of, and sometimes it is hard to find a pair that match up for colour...even in a box of three dozen. So you have to be careful with the final finish--especially if you want a "natural" finish. When it's good,it's very, very good; when it's bad it's horrid.

Finally, I like the smell.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC
http://www.bootmaker.com

"Little Jack Dandiprat, in a white petticoat,
The longer he lives the shorter he grows."

shoestring · #133 Post by **shoestring** » Thu Mar 04, 2004 3:37 am

http://i-cias.com/morocco/fez11.htm,Just thought
some would enjoy this site.A tannery in Fez,Morocco.

shoestring · #134 Post by **shoestring** » Thu Mar 04, 2004 3:38 am

On the tannery site remove the "just"sorry about that

shoestring · #135 Post by **shoestring** » Thu Mar 04, 2004 3:50 am

http://i-cias.com/morocco/fez11.htm

No just this time.

Chuck Deats · #136 Post by **Chuck Deats** » Fri Mar 19, 2004 7:24 am

Not sure this is the right place to post this question. I see the Hide house in california has some 4.5 to 5.5 oz. cowhide they call chap sides. Has any one used this leather? Will it strech into a full wellington? Would it work for a beginner (fourth pair)? Been using 4 oz. veg tooling leather up to now. Does anybody have a better suggestion?
Thanks! chasdeats@yahoo.com

#137 Post by dw » Fri Mar 19, 2004 8:09 am

Chuck,

In my opinion, the last thing you want for full Wellington is something stretchy and baggy...because, in the end, that's what your boots will be like, too. I'd suggest Greg Hochhauser's French calf if you're feeling like taking the next step up into something pretty dressy. Or Horween's Beaumont for a good all around boots. I've used both without any real difficulty. [Inspect the Beaumont and maybe even wet and pull a scrap and stitch a bit on a scrap as well. I have had nothing but good results with the Beaumont but I have heard some spotty reports of inconsistency. ]

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

frommer@bootmaker.com
http://www.bootmaker.com

"Little Jack Dandiprat, in a white petticoat,
The longer he lives the shorter he grows."

Chuck Deats · #138 Post by **Chuck Deats** » Fri Mar 19, 2004 10:25 am

DW,
Thanks very much for the prompt answer. How do I contact Hochhauser and/or Horeeen?
Chuck

Chuck Deats · #139 Post by **Chuck Deats** » Sat Mar 20, 2004 8:08 am

I am a little slow but I found contacts for both of them. thanks for the info.

#140 Post by dw » Sat Mar 20, 2004 8:52 am

Chuck,

Great! I'm a little slow, too. I hadn't forgotten but I've been busier than a gopher in loose dirt and I post to the Forum from my "inside" computer and have all my business contacts in an old fashioned rolodex out in the shop.

I hope you found the addresses by doing a search on the Forum. That's such a useful feature. In all likelihood, I would have come in here Saturday afternoon and realized that I needed to answer you and instead of going back out to the shop, done a keyword search on the Forum, myownself.

BTW, the navy Sandhill/full wellington I posted over in the Gallery yesterday (?) was some of Greg's French Calf. Of course, I used a veg calf lining but notice the way that the boot holds its shape and stands up so nice and round. That's because the French Calf is firm rather than stretchy and drapey.

To tell you the truth, I have never had a lick of problem with it. No cracking toes, no slipping finish, no inconsistent temper...nada. If I can sell it, I make all my dressy full cut from it. Nothing better I have ever seen. If I could sell it all the time, and he had more clear clours, I'd make all my dress boots from it. Can't recommend it enough.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

frommer@bootmaker.com
http://www.bootmaker.com

"Little Jack Dandiprat, in a white petticoat,
The longer he lives the shorter he grows."

Frank English · #141 Post by **Frank English** » Mon May 31, 2004 10:27 am

To all.
Looking for good ostrich? You might want to check out a company I have been in contact with.
Far Out Sports and Leather
60 Nardone Rd.
Needham, Ma. 02492 USA
tel/fax: 781-400-1054
Dror Shalita sales
cell 617-784-6612
e-mail: soleman@faroutspoets.com
These people are the ones who raise the birds. I received a sample of their product and it was nicer than what I received from other companies as their 1 or 2 grade and it was a 10 grade. I was also told there is going to be a shotage and that prices will be going up. Check them out, they are a South African Farm that sells direct.
Frank English

soleman · #142 Post by **soleman** » Mon May 31, 2004 5:35 pm

Hi everyone.
I would like to introudce myself to the group. my name is Dror Shalita, and I operate out of Needham MA. For the past 15 years I have been repairing mountaineering and climbing shoes, and recently I was informed by my family in south Africa that I will be also dealing with ostrich skins in the US imported directly from our family farms in South Africa.

We used to market our skins through the Klein Karoo for many years, but in the last few years they flooded the market with cheap skins and played hardball with the farmers. As a result, many farmers went out of business, or scaled back on their operations.
We decided not to take this anymore, and now we are marketing our own skins directly. Our operation now eliminates a few middlemen you have been supporting for some time.

Since we are the producers of skins, we have control and discression of who to sell to and what. In the next couple of years, there is an anticipated shortage of tanned African ostrich skins. From speaking to boot makers, and other leather artisans, I gather the sense of upcoming shortage and increase in prices has not hit the states yet, while in South Africa, buyers are scrambling for whatever they can.

We will work with custom boot makers to make sure they get exactly what they want in terms of quality, colors, and delivery. We raise our own ostriches, and slaghter them. We contract our tanning is done in the same tanneries as Klein Karoo uses.
We are also buying skins from fellow farmers as we offer them better prices, and pay them cash. As a result, our quality of skins is better than our competition.

If you need more info, please e-mail me:

soleman@faroutsports.com (typo in the previous message.)

Dror Shalita
Far Out Sports and Leather

Frank English · #143 Post by **Frank English** » Tue Jun 01, 2004 9:29 am

I made an error in my posting. The e-mail address should be -soleman@faroutsports.com
Sorry about that!
Frank English

#144 Post by dw » Fri Jun 04, 2004 5:27 am

Just a word here...

I have been buying and making boots from Ostrich for a lot of years. I've seen the market expand and shrink and expand again. At one point Ostrich...good ostrich...was not available in this country except from one of two sources--W.Pierce on the east coast and John G. Mahler on the west coast. These were Klein Karoo skins...the best in the world.

And then the US embargo on South Africa...most of the stuff coming into the US at that time was imported from Zimbabwe when production moved across the border to avoid the embargo. We saw the effects of different food, different environments, different treatment of the raw skins, on the final product, and it wasn't encouraging. About this time domestic (US) interests got involved. But due to the restrictions that certain interest groups have managed to place on any operation dealing with animals or animal by-products here in the states...to this date, I've seen nothing that measures up to Klein Karoo leathers.

As much as I would like to see, and buy, ostrich leather from US sources, domestic ostrich is almost universally stiff, too thick, and the quill "bumps" not stabilized--so that what starts as a neat compact little bump ends up as an extended flat tube when the boots are made.

If Mr. Shalita can offer quality comparable to or exceeding the standards that Klein Karoo has established and do it for a competitive price...AND...deliver with reasonable dispatch, I for one welcome this new source.

I am supposed to be receiving samples from Mr. Shalita and I'm looking forward to seeing what will be available. If anyone else has occasion to see or use this leather, please do not hesitate to comment.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

soleman · #145 Post by **soleman** » Fri Jun 04, 2004 8:42 pm

In response to DW's posting:

1. My family is one of the largest slaughterers for Klein Karoo. If you bought Klein Karoo tanned skins through Mahler or anyone else, and you bought more than 5 skins, chances are you used our skins in the past.
2. Even during Apartheid embargo days, South African exporters were exporting though front companies elsewhere in Africa.
3. Most of our skin, meat and feather inventories are running on two legs and peck in the ground. Our advantage is that bootmakers can tell us exactly what they want, and if we don't have it in stock, we can make it.
4. Ostrich farming and skin tanning is no different to any other trade. There are some trade secrets ostrich farmers prefer not to share with the rest of the world for obvious reasons. That makes African ostrich from Oudshoorn most prized ostrich leather.
5. Buying directly from us eliminates a few middlemen, and gives buyers good value.
6. I know I may not be able to deliver the right skin for a given job everytime due to any reason (such as customer wants bigger bumps etc.) I will take back any skin not up to your expectation, but I will guaranty best available skins for best price regardless of grade and size.
7. It takes about 6-8 weeks from the time an ostrich is slaughtered to the time a tanned skin is made. Keep that in mind incase we don't have in stock exactly what you need.
8. Some bootmakers already purchased skins from me, and were impressed. Some said they have not seen that type of skins in two years or so. I can provide names if they agree to have me do that.
9. The ostrich skin industry is doing bad in South Africa. Klein Karoo is cutting back their operations. The mad cow disease scare in Europe a few years ago had increased meat prices drastically. As a result, surplus of skins emerged. Currency exchange rates went from 13 South African Rands to the US$ lastyear, to $6.50 this year, so farmers were getting screwed on exchange rates as well. As a result, farmers were paid less than their costs, which prompted us to go directly, and some less fortunate farmers have either gone under, abandoned farming, or scaled back.

I hope this helps explain to you guys what's going on in ostrichland. If DW has not received a package yet, I will make sure he does.

thanks

Dror Shalita
Far Out Sports and Leather

#146 Post by dw » Sat Jun 12, 2004 6:46 am

It's always a risky business recommending a source for leather. What I like and can use is not necessarily what another person will like or can use.

Added to that, sometimes...as has happened fairly regularly in the past...we get a new leather in to try and we like it initially. Sometimes we are even excited about it. And then something changes--the tanner/finisher decides to "improve" the leather or to make it more economical to produce--and suddenly the leather is not worth looking at.

Having said all that, Garlin Neuman has recently changed tanneries for their glazed water buffalo calf, ostensibly (hopefully) to address the problems we've all had with the finsih. I am hopeful.

And the burnishable buffalo will be back. That's good news if it's anyways near to the quality of the old stuff.

I can't vouch for these new leathers...only time and trials will tell...and even then, as I said above, some will like the leather and some will not. But I do believe it's worth giving Peter a call for new swatches and a try, if you see something you can use.

And then....wet a piece down good, flex it, and crumple it, and stretch it and then examine it closely for loss of finsh or other problems.

Done right, glazed water buffalo buffalo calf is truly a "great leather."

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

#147 Post by dw » Sat Jun 12, 2004 6:50 am

I received some swatches of SA ostrich from Dror Shalita the other day. They look good. Better than anything domestic.

With his "30/30" guarantee, and Durland-Larson sold out or gone "tips up," I know that I'll be giving him my next order. I'll let the forum know what I think...and anyone else who tries it before I do, please share your experience with us.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

#148 Post by dw » Sat Jun 12, 2004 6:54 am

One other quick remark while I'm sitting here thinking about leather...for those of you looking for strong, bright colours for inlay work or even for fancy tops on boots, Shrut and Asche is worth a look for their kidskins. It's not kangaroo but no one that I know produces a wider range of colours in any leather than S&A. Sometimes a canary yellow is just the ticket.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

soleman · #149 Post by **soleman** » Mon Jun 14, 2004 10:01 pm

About DWII's remarks about new suppliers;

1. I do understand suppliers come and go. Their quality varies, and with greed come trouble.

2. I do understand custom bootmakers have the highest demands, but they are a pleasure to deal with. They appreciate what you do for them. I have been in the outdoor sports business for 15 years now. I have been selling rock climbing gear, climbing shoes, and I repair climbing shoes with high tech materials, hence the "Soleman." The small shoe repair shop is my native ground.

3. Each custom boot maker has his own opinion and preferences, but I am trying to learn what are the business demands, and relay the information to my relatives in Oudshoorn South Africa in terms of grades, weight, colors, "bumps" etc. MOst of our inventory of skins runs on two legs and pecks in the ground. We can turn it into any tanned skin you desire.

4. My wife is a 3rd generation to a well known ostrich farming family (just ask Queen Elizabeth II of England how she liked her visit to Bakenskraal a while ago.) We did not start the family business yesterday, and we are not in it for the quick buck. For my wife's family, it is the only way of life they know. With about 100 years of family tradition, I don't see our quality going down.

5. Your ostrich leather customers are our customers. We put our expertise into materials, and you put your expertise in putting a finished product together. You depend on us for leather quality, and we depend on you to make desired products out of our leather.

6. With a shortage of skins on the horizon, I hope we can provide the custom boot maker with satisfactory skins they need to keep their business going.

7. From what I have sold so far, seems like buyers are happy. I did have a couple of skins come back on my 30/30 warranty, but it was not because of poor quality, but because of sending the wrong skin for the job, partially, because I am new to the business, and don't have full knowledge of bootmakers needs, nor I fully understand the ostrich business yet. I understand it is tough to read a customer's mind 2,000 miles away, but I can make it up with customer service. That's the nature of mail order. the two returns I had were a "zero cost" transaction to the buyers.

any questions, let me know

Dror Shalita
Far Out Sports and Leather

Frank English · #150 Post by **Frank English** » Tue Jun 15, 2004 9:12 am

I ordered a skin from Dror. I immediately noticed the color was more vivid, the flesh side was more dense( not loose), and the skin was more pliable than a previous skin I bought months ago. I am about to crimp a pair of vamps in a few days. If they crimp as good as they look and feel I will be a happy camper. I'll post an update later.
Frank English

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