The Crispin Colloquy

i will try for the picture again,

DRWalker,
You can butt in anytime,this is a public forum after all, does your Norwegian storm welt likes like the one here?

regards Nasser

Nasser,

Except for allowing the insole to extend beyond the edge of the last the method sounds The same. You end up with the same sort of bump or roll next to the upper. I last normaly, but then instead of inseaming as with a goodyear welt and trimming off the excess, I inseam with a strip of leather laid grain to grain against the upper. Then only the lining and toe stiffener are trimmed flush. The upper is folded out and the strip you stitched on is folded down over the inseam. The upper and the strip of leather covering the inseam are then cemented and stitched to the mid-sole.

It is very difficult to try to descibe something in words that would be very easy to demonstrate in person. Hope I haven't confussed the matter further.

DRWalker

DRWalker,

The extended soles were only for the stitch down method,but for the one we are now talking about,i said above "the insole is trimmed to the last" and yes it is a good idea to trim the lining and the stiffener and fold the upper as you said,i sometimes trim it and sometimes not, but here is my question, quote " The upper and the strip of leather covering the inseam are then cemented and stitched to the midsole" How do you stitch to midsole? by hand or machine? i think it is the same method.

Nasser

Nasser,

I stitch them with a machine. If I am putting on a relatively thin sole I stitch the welt, sole, and midsole at the same time. If I am putting on a heavy lug sole I stitch the midsole and then just cement the outsole, unless it is for a wildland firefighter , which is where some of these boots go. Since our cement is heat activated I need to either stitch or find some other way to attatch the sole so that it doesn't come off when exposed to the heat of a fire.
DRWalker

DRWalker,

Well sir, it seems to me you got this technique well under control, i admit i never stitched soles or mid soles to them,(I assume you are using a McKay stitcher),but i found the McKay makes the sole of the shoe stiff(rigid), but for fire fighter,safety is first and better safe than sorry. it is an honor to meet you here and hope to hear from you often or even better meeting you in person in Guthrie this October.

Nasser

DRWalker,

Hey you're the fellow with those beautiful American Flag boots! Welcome to our forum here.

Sounds like your Norwegian Storm Welt Packers is how White's contsructs their boots. Mighty sturdy construction from my observation.

It's interesting how these two styles share a common feature, yet the style Nasser shows is flexible and the Packer style becomes very stiff when combined with the outsole stitch on a midsole.

Regarding Vibrams lug soles on fire boots, I've had good success not only preping the soles with Acetone before cementing, but then hand stitching thru the whole works with a #33 Champion McKay needle. Takes some shoulder power and about 30 minute's but it's reassuring to the guys that their soles won't come off in the forest!

Paul

Paul,

Thanks, You are correct. I am the one with the Flag boots.

I have hand stitched the lug soles but if the planets are aligned correctly and I hold my mouth right I can sometimes convince my Landis K to do the job.

I would like to get to Witchata Falls this year and meet some of you. Or it sounds like something also goes on in Guthrie, I suppose I should know about these things but they don't let me out much. I was lucky enough to draw a once in a lifetime trophy bull elk tag in Utah this year and my hunt is Sep 24-Oct 2. That makes Texas unlikely unless I get my bull early in the hunt. I don't know the dates on the Guthrie thing, so I don't know if its possible or not.

DRWalker

DRWalker,

The H.C.C. Annual General Meeting in Guthrie, OK October 24-26,2008

DRWalker,
Let's see a picture of the flag boots please.

Thanks
Georgene

I will try to include a picture of the flag boots in The Gallery if I can figure out how.
DRWalker

Now here's a question for you...

A Dutch colleague (shoe museum curator and shoe machinery aficionado) informed me years ago that some shoemakers there were able to use a straight-needle chain-stitch MacKay machine to sew in welts to Goodyear "Gem" ribs for making new shoes. Upon reading the Landis sales brochure that came with my 88-MacKay, they were touting it for "re-welting" Goodyear welted shoes as one of its many capabilities (besides making coffee) for a repair shop. I was wondering if they merely meant MacKay sewing a repair welt straight through the upper and insole, or if they meant you could actually re-sew a new welt to the old "Gem" rib following the original stitch-path of the Goodyear inseaming machine?

I have a roll of old "Gem" ribbing here, and it looks pretty wide, like it might stand up proud enough to feed under the MacKay needle, but before I wasted an afternoon or broke a few MacKay needles, I thought I'd ask on-line if any of you have ever heard, seen, tried, or succeeded doing Goodyear welt sewing/"Gem" rib on a straight-needle MacKay?

I've spent way too long in 100% hand-sewn la-la land apparently. If Goodyear welted construction, for new-made shoes, is possible or practical with a common-as-dirt Landis 88 MacKay, this might be a boon to many.

I have never done rib but I have sewn welt thru the upper and insole. You need an edge guide for the shoe and the welt if you have any chance of keeping it all straight. I imagine that shoe handling would be critical to sew to the rib.
Tom

Al,

This Dutchman has not heard that or seen it done. I can figure how it is possible if you do not have a last in the way so you can bend the insole and rib to line up with the needle but that would only be suitable for repairs.
Transport will be difficult and uneven at best and the risk of tightening the shoes may make it not even worth attempting.

For what it's worth I would run back to hand-sewn la-la land and leave the MacKay to make the coffee.

Rob

PS, remind me to pass on the coffee

Thanks for the two replies, but I'm still wondering....

Several years ago there was an article published about two guys (Italians?) who were making what they nick-named a "MacKay/Goodyear" construction, where they MacKay'd a "welt" (basically a thin skeleton mid-sole with a cork-filled center) straight through to the shoe, then stitched an outsole to this lip--basically the old "faire stitched" construction, except for the midsole being fairly light-weight, cut out in the center and filled with cork.

That, however, is not what my Dutch friend was saying. He insisted that some could actually inseam the uppers and welt to a "Gem" rib stuck to the insole, like a Goodyear inseamer, but on a straight-needle MacKay chain-stitcher.

Seems to me if you used very high "Gem" rib, then trimmed and pounded it down flat afterwards, it just might work. I guess I'll waste some leather and MacKay needles giving it a try, unless anybody else knows of any successful attempts at this.

I've had a little exposure to a Goodyear inseaming (monster) machine, and these feed the prepared welting off a roll, so all you do is basically hold and move the shoe through the needle. I can see it might be a problem holding the loose length of welting, as well as feeding the shoe around on a MacKay horn. Or, how to avoid disaster by hitting any lasting tacks with the needle. But hey...you know how it is during those lonely "inventive" moments sitting in the shop wondering "what if....?".

Hello,

I was wondering if there is a tutorial on fiddleback waists and bevelled waists? I couldn't find a search option to carry out a forum search so I do apologise if this question has been asked before...
I am really interested in giving it a try!!

Cheers
Eck

Eckart,

There are some discussions on the fiddle back and bevelled waists that have taken place not to long ago. I don't recall a tutorial but by asking the right questions you should be able to get the answers you are looking for. You should be able to find them with the search function on the forum. Be creative with keywords as miss spelled words are not picked up in searches. (yes, I know I'm a major offender when it comes to spelling, know it's not on purpose!)
An other, little known way to search that I like to use is through Google. Use the prefix site:thehcc.org before your keywords so that only the HCC site is searched. Unlike with the build in search, posts are not immediately indexed so newer posts may take some time to show up.
Just another option in case that works better for you. I find Google a little more forgiving when it comes to spelling

Rob

Thanks a lot! I'll do just that.
I had no idea about the use of prefix in Google...sounds like a really cool function. I'll give it a go and I'll try to post a few pictures of my work if I am successful...

Eck

Hope you had a good xmas!
I am thinking of ordering new sole leather for the new year and I was wondering if i'll need a thicker sole if I am going to try doing fidleback and beveled waists?
Eck

Yes you do. Order 5,5 mm thick. But you have to make the thinner at the wais for the good bevelled look.
And actually... Happy New Year! I hope we can meet in 2009.

Marcell,
Thanks!
Hope you have a good year!
Eck

Oooops I forgot an important detail: when you are ready with the welting, put some thick upper leather under the welt and skive it to zero.

Marcell,

I'm a bit confused..
Do I cement the extra leather under the welt? Does this serve any function?
I'm sure I misunderstood.

Eck

No.. just temporaly put one there to protect the upper leather. I try to make a video about it, as soon as I will have some time.

Marcell,
A video would be more than helpful!

In Golding volumes it mentions both a thicker innersole as well as thicker outsole is required for a beveled waist.

I am looking through my books hoping to find some tricks to achieve this.

Eck

I've been really thinking about trying out various soles on some sport shoes I am working on. Somehow I don't feel good about gluing on a sole onto a bespoke upper. Is there a way to attach a crepe sole on chukka boot by welting? Or at least sewing it onto the shoe?
Please share your opinions. Eck