"The Art and Mysterie..."

[paul]

Thanks Tom.

I does occur to me how beautiful a pair of tooled full cuts would look. I'll have to fit a pair in one day.

So here's a question for you. In view of the understanding that exists, that dry split leather is weaker and could tear easier than not-dry-split, I'm guessing that your success comes from your technique of crimping with the pig liner, and the use of the multiple screws. Would you say that's correct?

You're in Virginia, or someplace back East aren't you?

PK

[tmattimore]

When I do linings I always crimp them together on one board. I think the tannage that wickett uses has a lot more to do with it then dry or wet splitting but I may be wrong. When I first started I tried different veg tans and had them milled at Philadelphia Leather but they all tore. I tried different shapes of boards until one seemed to work and I also tried different blocker patterns so they would match the board. it is a process that worked once I eliminated the variables that didn't.
But most definetly extra screws helped me. I don't know if it would help on any other type of leather. I have seen some chrome tanned that you couldn't crimp with 20 screws and some you could do with your bare hands.
I live in Wyoming
Tom

[chuck_deats]

Question from a novice. What is meant by "milled leather"?? Think it is tumbled in a barrel to soften it, but not sure. Are oils used in the milling process??

Thanks, Chuck

[paul]

Chuck,

I'm not able to answer the oil part of your question. But I suppose it could be done sometimes for certain tannages and effects. Of course, it would reduce the ability to tool it.

However, you have it right about the tumbling in a barrel to soften the leather. I found a piece of very soft veg tanned leather in a box I'd had for years. At the time, I was looking for a good leather I could tool for boot tops. So I cut pieces and sent it around. When Glen at Wickett and Craig got a look at it, he told me he could do that. It added a good week to the process, it seemed, but when the leather arrived I was amazed how "drappy" it was. ANd it didn't add much to the price.

It almost seems to me if leather toolers had switched to milled leather for handbags, back when the trend turned to soft, there would still be a market for Porter or Southwest style tooled bags.

Sure does work well for boot tops though. I can tool a design, side seam it as usual, turn it after closing the seam, and not loose a bit of detail. With regular tooling leather the turning would create wrinkles that would just obscure the carved features.

Try it, you'll like it!

PK

[paul]

Tom,

Thanks for sharing your experience with the milled leather. I'll give it a try.

Does the milled veg resist tearing even when crimpted without the pig lining?

Good looking boys. Are they your sons?

PK

[shoestring]

PK,
Could you send a picture of that milled veg tooling leather with a sample stamp on it.Thanks

Ed

[j1a2g3]

Has anyone used MDF Board for their Crimping Boards? I have some left over and was thinking of using it for my boards. Thanks in advance, Joel

[tmattimore]

Paul you can tear any thing but this tears the least of all the veg tanned I have used. Since I have never used chrome I could not venture an opinion on it. The boys are college students one is now a music teacher and the other a structural engineer. It is my favorite part of the job to teach the kids how to use their hands I am now on my third generation of college students one a psych major and the other a nursing student.
Joel I don't think MDF would hold up too well. The best boards I have ever seen were the ones that D.W. desgined from a high density plastic I think Dick Thornapple makes them I saw them at the Sheridan show and they should last a lifetime.

[dw]

Joel,

I used twenty ply birch plywood for many of my earlier board--worked great!. The big advantage was that I could cut and shape the boards on my finisher and the many plys allowed me to create even bevels on the edges--only by cutting evenly and at the very same angle would the plys stay straight.

The disadvantage is that you need a hardwood plywood with no voids and good glue and of many plys---all leading to very expensive. And wood don't last near as long as the high density plastic.

But all the plastic ones were design off those original birch prototypes. That said, if MDF is what I think it is, I'd look for something else.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[paul]

First of all, Happy New Year To everyone.

I just got back from my Christmas present visit with the most beautiful, future shoe maker on God's erath. My Grace Elizabeth has the most darling face! I'm enchanted!

Ed, send me your address and I'll send you a swatch. How's that?

Tom, I'm eager to give this a try. Opens up the possibilities, I like it. Thank you.
I'm wondering, generations? You just keep opening up interesting aspects of yourself, my friend. Are you a parent of these generations or adjuct instructor, or some other ?

Joel, I just got a set of boards from Dick, and they work great. As a matter of fact, I can't wait to get back to them.


PK

[dw]

Tom,

When the front blockers are cut, they are cut perpendicular to the backbone. This leaves the line of stretch along the edges where it belongs but it also puts the top of the boot front in, or near, the belly (you want the "vamp" in the best leather...ie. near the backbone). Sometimes the boot is so tall that the top would be in really poor leather. So a graft is done.

And sometimes a customer likes the looks of it so well he orders it even when it is not needed.

Arlington is a oiled veg retan with a slightly snuffed grain.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[paul]

Wow, DW.

I see why you were so happy with the side seam. That's just about perfect isn't it?

I'm glad it came out that way for you. "My favorites" opens the Art and Mysterie where Al is teasing you about a wow in a side seam a couple of years back.

You've certainly set that issue straight, so to speak. Way to go.
Would you mind discussing the approach you used to over come this on that section of the board?

Oh, shiney piping. What'd you use?

PK

[dw]

Paul,

Yeah, it did turn out well. The side welt and the top binding are kangaroo...they just look shiney by comparison to the Arlington.

As for the wows in the side seam...well, I spent a number of years trying to; 1) make my way of cutting and drafting the tops work with the full wellington style of boot. 2) trying to understand how to adjust for heel height and 3) working my way through the difficulties of using modern leathers.

Somewhere in there I got a little sloppy or perhaps just distracted with other things. I got to the point where I would often (not always) fail to stretch the front blockers evenly all the way to the top of the blocker.

So that meant that especially where the throat iron was mounted, the leather would be stretched fairly taut and very little left in the leather in that area. But the section of top just above the throat iron was not stretched and had lots of residual. When the boots were closed, lasted and treed, the area coresponding to where the throat iron had been mounted tended to draw up some...more than areas that had not been stretched...creating a "wow." Anywhere that had not been stretched evenly, tended to draw up unevenly. That's my current theory anyway....

But it makes so much sense a dumb old bootmaker could easily go years and years without ever getting wise to what was going on.

Having said that, I don't want to celebrate too soon...there's always another thing that can be improved upon.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[tommick]

DW,

It's great to see how that boot turned out because I saw it in it's unlasted form and liked it even then. The black on black single line of stitching just looks so elegant to me. I remember that leather being quite thick - maybe 6-7 oz. Is that correct?

I've asked myself whether I should crimp the entire blocker more evenly because it is my tendency to simply finger crimp "north" of the pass line.

You seem to have answered that queston and it appears that a little more care in crimping the leg of the blocker can lead to a better result.

Thanks for showing us.

Tom

[dw]

Tom,

The leather was a pretty hefty five ounce. But it looked and felt pretty "plump." Made up, however, I don't think it's unreasonable for a casual/work style boot. If the finish were a little different it might even pass as a semi-dress boot.

I'm like you, I always felt that north of the pass line it would sort of take care of itself. Well, that it did.

I am spacing my drafts above the throat iron at one inch intervals and trying to even out the stretch all the way down the "leg." Of course that's not entirely possible when using a throat iron, so I try to release the throat iron some after the blocker has set on the board a day or so. I follow this procedure on both the easy and "cruel" boards.

And I am more careful on the back board too--for all the same reasons.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[tommick]

DW, Paul and others,

I'm hot to try building another pair of dress (not work) Full Wellies and I have some nice French Calf of about 3.5oz.

This is absolutely not my choice in leather for these boots but it's here in my shop, paid for and it's really pretty leather.

I'd hate to waste some fairly expensive leather to find out it was a bad choice which I'm guessing it might be.

Can you folks give me some opinions before I head down this road?

[dw]

Who did you get your French calf from? Not all French Calf is suitable for making FW's.

If I were you, I'd order some four ounce Horween Beaumont (with an acrylic finish it ends up looking just like a pretty good grade of French calf and it is easy to block) and make a pair from that first. There are a lot of "variables" in making a pair of FW's--from the shape of the boards to the way the side is trimmed--that can foul the boot up even if you get it blocked smoothly.

But bottom line is that French calf can make a pretty pair of boots--my dress boots are French Calf (FW's).

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[paul]

Tom,

I'd have to defer to DW's answer to your question.
However, I too had a piece of French Calf in the shop. It's some chocolate brown I got from GH Leather. I cut the tops out when I was at DW's but have too many boots to be working on to crimp them yet.
I did just finally get a call from Horween that the piece I've been waiting for has been shipped out. I've been waiting a coons age for that! When you do order it, be prepared for several weeks wait. They were nice folks to talk too, but it's not a leather they just pull off the shelf for you. They actually make it up after it's ordered. At least it appears that way. My FW customer came in for a fitting on the first fitters model, but his flat feet are being a challenge to learn from. I've made up a second pair, and he's due in later today.

DW,
Couldn't the finish be deglazed after completion and then refinished with a new acrylic topcoat? I can see there might be some loss of beauty, but couldn't it be brought back to some sort of consistency?

PK

[dw]

Paul,

It isn't just the finish that's a problem. Although the French Calf I've been getting from GH Leathers is so problematic at this point I wouldn't recommend it.

But a lot of "French" Calf is simply too dense and/or stiff to block properly.

As for refinishing...what failed on the GH stuff was a "glaze" for lack of a better word. It wasn't just an acrylic "wax" or top coat. It was the "paint job" that failed. Use...and refinish...at your own risk.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[jenny_fleishman]

Re calf skin vs French calf...I have some swatches...French calf from Charles Hardtke, and calf skin from Macpherson leather. The French calf seems to have a shinier finish, and be stiffer than the calf skin. Is this the typical difference between French calf and regular calf skin?

In terms of a shoe holding it's shape, is the French calf or regular calf likely to work better? Are there also other kinds of calf skin?

Jenny

[tommick]

DW,

It's the same French Calf that I saw swatches of in your shop and it's from Stevenson Paxton.

I blew out my second front lining blocker during crimping so now I have to crimp another and then I think that I will give the French Calf a try. I'll just have to cowboy up and if the leather misbehaves then I'll chalk it up to experience.

I've been wearing the only pair of FW's that I've ever made and they are so great that I want to make another pair and try to improve them based on some of the things I learned from you.

Regards, Tom

[dw]

Paul. Tom, all...

I've got an update on the French Calf I've been getting from GH Leather. As it turns out the leather that I had problems with was from a batch that had a heavier "paint job" in order to make it look glossier on the table.

I've been assured (and am greatly relieved to hear) that forthcoming shipments will be the original finish. Hallelujah!!

But on that note, I would like to comment (and perhaps advise young makers just coming into the business)...

Leather is one of those extraordinary commodities that has its own special look and feel and charm. Despite the fact that synthetic leathers have been on the market for many decades, leather still remains the premium material for making top shelf boots and shoes. It should not be made to look like plastic!!

We all need to try and find within ourselves an appreciation for the natural beauty of leather and not try to emulate commercial products. Those who live in close proximity to shoe or boot factories...and especially those who do not have continued guidance from folks that have been in this business for years and years...must resist the urge to copy factory goods or, worse yet, look to the factory as a standard for beauty or quality.

The French Calf that Greg Hochhauser is bringing into this country is some of the finest quality leather that has ever been available to the Trade..especially in this country. It does not need to be shinier! If you want to shine it up, learn to use an Acrylic wax system.

Educate your customer! Do not let him or her badger you into abandoning everything you know about quality leather. If the customer wants plastic send them to Acme. If they want quality, show them uncompromising quality and tell them why it is quality.

'Nuff said.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[dw]

Tom,

Well, that calf is not "technically" a French calf." But it will probably work fine for FW's. I was thinking about getting some of that myself. It may be a little soft but a good firm veg lining can make up for that.

Jenny,

Technically French Calf comes from France. GH Leather is the only one I know bring in French Calf.

Other calf skins may work fine. Stiff is not always good (nor, up to a point, always bad) You must decide what you want in the way of "hand" and finish. My main criteria is that the leather be "struck through." After that, and only after that, do I start looking at "hand" and finish and ultimately what I'm going to use it for (what kind of footewear).

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[j1a2g3]

DW

Could you explain what you mean by "hand", in the previous post?

Thanks Joel

[telong2001]

DW,
I've spent many hourse perusing this site and it has really helped this new bootmaker. You often use the adjective "struck through". What exactly does that mean?
Terri
Can't wait to get the CD!