The Crispin Colloquy

Thanks Tim...I am still a little confused as to how to sew in the vamp lining. I have the basics...I understand that the quarter lining goes over the vamp lining. What I am not sure about is from what position i sew the two together and what is done in the area of the tongue.

I am going to do a "fitter's model" to see if I can work out any awkwardness. Sometimes the best way is just to jump in and try it.

I'm sure I'll be looking for clarification and/or tips as I go along.


Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

DW, when I made my first pair of shoes I made paper cutouts of one quarter and half the vamp and taped them together, and did the same for the lining. I then cut a slit in the lining quarter to make it fit together.

I still have to refer back to my cutouts occasionally...I got the idea for doing this from Frank Jones, who talked about working with paper cutouts at the seminars/workshops he gives to shoe company executives. I don't think I could have comprehended how the two layers would fit together any other way!

When I put the leather upper and lining together (with tanner's cement around the topline and edge of the tongue) I hold them together around the (feather) edges with alligator (?) clips, and adjust as necessary as I line things up. (Perhaps everyone does this). The clips leave little marks in the leather, so I only use them in the lasting margin. I've found this really, really helps getting things lined up properly.

Jenny

Tim, did you want a profile type shot with the heel lifted to the heel height, sitting on foot tracing--or something different? (similar to what I posted previously)

I realize that by playing with the treadline on the bottom of the last instead of shortening the last from the back of the heel, I may end up with the treadline not being located at the widest part of the last. Regarding this issue, on the lateral side of my feet, I think the end of my little toes actually are wider than the lateral side of my joint line--or at minimun, no narrower.

I will be visiting Walrus Shoe on Saturday to pick up some lasts, and will bring a bunch of stuff to show Larry, including the lasts and recent shoes.

Jenny

That's a very good idea...and I have done it in the past. I intend to do it again with this pair but I like to have some sort of "visual" in my head before I even start cutting out patterns. If I can "image" the process, I can do it. Plus, you're just that much further ahead when you make the paper facsimile if you do run into problems.

Frank was out here some years back...I enjoyed his visit. He showed me a number of things, as well. I got a copy of his patterning book. I don't use a mean forme method for patterning, although since I'm just beginning to make shoes somewhat seriously, I may switch to it sooner or later. But I have several geometric patterning systems that have served me well over the years...Koleff is only the latest.

It's amazing...great minds and great rivers all flow in the same direction, I think. You're obviously a natural. I also use paper clips alligator clips, etc., to hold pieces together (not that I stint on the rubber cement, mind you), as well as actually shaping some things when I need to.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

DW,

If you read and study Koleffs instructions on closing an Oxford or Derby and study the pictures in HMSFM you can come up with how it's done in your head.As for the tongue it can be sewn in by hand and then maybe machined stitched on the side to keep it stable.There is a great deal of visiual information in HMSFM.Just my 2 cents from the green peanut gallery.

Ed

Ed,

I've been studying like it was for a final exam! Koleff doesn't really talk about closing until several styles past the oxford and derby. I'm sure a lot of it would be the same but for all the rest of his very fine material, he's not very helpful in that way. If anyone should ever think to write a book on shoemaking, he/she/ should delve deeply into patterning and into closing and assembly as well. This is what almost all the books on shoemaking have failed to cover or cover extensively enough. As a consequence they all take you just so far and then they leave you hanging.

I understand the rationale (as it was told to me) but just because the expectation is/was that you would be working with a master as you learn, is no excuse to leave out the most important parts. Golding does this, most of the patterning books do this... including Koleff's book...Tim's book is the only one in recent times that even attempts to cover all bases.

BTW, I totally agree with you about HMSFM. There is so much you can learn from just studying the photos over and over agaqin. But they don't cover closing oxfords. [img]http://www.thehcc.org/forum/images/old_smilies/sad.gif"%20ALT="sad[/img]

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

Often times while making boots, I have had occasion to turn an edge or two. To do that I want to add a fairly precise turning margin. I generally draft my pattern, and then transfer it to manila folder cardboard. Then I make another out of the same cardboard but adding the turning or lap allowance. I read somewhere that once upon a time there were sets of tools, very like dividers in graduated widths, made specifically for shoemakers and for this job, that could be purchased to add a given allowance along the edge of a pattern. But I've never run across anything remotely like that.

I have used dividers on occasion and never been satisfied although they will do the job remarkably well, especially if well constructed and mounted with a pencil. I even bought a set of small disks that had a tiny hole in the center. The idea was to run the edge along the edge of your pattern with a pencil lead stuck through the hole in the center. If the distance from the hole to the edge is precise, theoretically, you create a precise margin along the edge of your pattern. The problem with these little disks is that they are meant for wood and are chamfered on the bottom edge so they run up over the edge of anything less than an eighth of an inch thick. I've been threatening to turn a set with sharp flat bottoms but have never gotten around to it.

But necessity is the mother of invention and as silly as this may sound (and some of the experts here may even have a simpler or easier solution) while making patterns for my little oxfords, I came up with this idea:

I used a half inch strip of manila folder folded it in half and then folded each side again (see diagram below). Then from the central fold I measured the required turn allowance, say 5mm, and with a sharp awl punched a hole through one side. Then I cemented the sides together and re-punched the hole through both sides. the central fold rides along the edge of the pattern and the pencil tip is marking a margin 5mm from that edge. It's a little more complicated than that, but the diagram shows the critical points and makes it clearer than any additional explanation I could give.

It's cheap, it's easy, you can set several margins on one "device" and best of all it's amazingly accurate once you get the hang of it (always keep the device at a 90° angle to the edge of the pattern.

Anyway, screwball as it may be...


Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

DW,

Sorry I am away from home for another day so haven't got back to you. I wrote my book because there was nothing to tell students how to do things like closing in George's book.

I also tell how to fold edges accurately in there. You don't need gadgets as you already have the information on your patterns and when you fold you probably have to take into consideration the 3mm or so that get taken up in the folding of the leather. I have seen people try to fold using marks on the inside of the material but they don't work out. George came up with the system I use and I taught a lot of people to fold that way and it works. I do it by eye but that was the way I learnt.

Tim

Jenny,

I will be home tomorrow night so when you get to Larry's he can skype me and try to sort things out if the time coincides with me being on the net. I really need to see the widest point on your lasts now before you alter anything.

Tim

Tim, sounds good. I expect to be there sometime between 10a and Noon Saturday. Not sure what the time difference is from where you are!

Jenny

Tim,

I turn edges just like you describe. My little "gadget" above, is for adding turning margins, lap allowances, etc..

Just my workflow, but even though some will cut slots into the standard, etc., and/or work pretty much standard to cut leather, I don't. I like to have a record of everything I've done...so I may make several different patterns for the quarters, say, and never touch or alter the standard in any way.

Having a record of how you did it; of the customers data and how it translated to the draft, and the standard, and the patterns, and finally, the finished boot/shoe, itself, is a little more work but it slows you down and makes you think and be more deliberate...that's always good. More importantly, it doesn't hurt anything (except the need for speed). And on occassion, I have been able to come back to a pair that I did sucessfully (or not so sucessfully) and trace where and how the results differed from another pair. That kind of recordkeeping and that kind of workflow has helped me refine my work immensely over the years.

It's just a variation of "measure twice, cut once."

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

DW,

Not having seen Tim's book, I may be repeating what's in there or maybe not so here it goes:

In your patterns make sure the vamp/quarter underlays and the vamp lining/quarter lining underlays are staggered, having them in top of each other will create a stiff band.
You make an upper and a lining that will be sewn together along the closing line of the shoe only.

Start by turning the edges on your quarters and close the quarters.
Sew your vamp to the quarters. Depending on your sewing machines and setup it may be easier to attach the quarters to the vamp before closing them.

Add 4 mm to the top of the quarter linings, all the way down to the end of the facings. Skive the lower ¾” of your lining at the facings and overlap 4 mm using all purpose cement. Do not cement more then 15 mm.
Attach the vamp lining to the quarter linings, than close the lining quarters. If you like you can close the lining quarters before attaching to the vamp lining.
Make sure you take off enough extra margin off the back of the quarter linings or the lining will not be positioned correctly. At the bottom of your pattern you will have to take 5 mm off unless you use a very stiff lining, than go a little less, 3.5 to 4 mm should do it.

If you are considering concealed eyelets, place the lining without cement, mark the eyelets and place the eyelets in the lining.
With rubber cement attach the quarter lining to the quarters from facing to facing. Keep the 4 mm you added before as the guide on how high to hang the lining. Make a small slid in the 4 mm extra lining material you have right where the quarters come out from under the upper vamp. You could punch a small hole right there in the lining, not really necessary.

Sew the lining to the upper along the closing line of the shoe. Some like to put a stitch over the vamp facing point by hand. Nothing wrong with that.

I prefer to sew the tongue to the lining only. By doing that you don't end up with that extra short stitch line right on the face of the shoe. Unless you have someone that wants to pull at the tongue very aggressively it will hold just fine. Unlike a derby style the tongue has no function other than “shield” the top of the foot from the laces so there is no reason to pull it beyond straightening it out. Make sure the end of the tongue is skived nice and thin and sew it right where the vamp and quarter linings meet.
You could put a stitch on the side of the tongue to keep it from moving away as Ed suggests but if you cut your tongue out of the skin with the stretch going straight across it should stay put quite well. The turning away of the tongue is caused mostly by the low grade of leather used and the direction they are cut from the skin.

Of course you add the eyelet reinforcement, top line tape and all that. Since that is not specific to this construction I left it out off the basic description to get the basic concept across.

This really is a very simple way of putting together an oxford. In fact it's easier than a derby if you think of it. The vamp face point is the only part you have to pay a little extra attention to. Make sure the lining and upper line up just right in that area.

This is how I set up the pattern:

That was easy, right?

Rob

Robert,

Thank you, for that--it's reasonably clear and the diagram is helpful.

Here's what's hanging me up...

I can see assembling/closing the vamps and quarters by themselves and doing the same with the vamp and quarter linings. It would then be a simple job to "hang" the linings in the shoe.

But when you sew the topline and the facing, and, at the same time, attaching the linings, there is going to be a certain amount of "awkwardness" as the roller presserfoot of the machine comes on and off the facing from/to the vamp. And the facings will not be sewn all the way to and under the vamp edge. I really hate that thought.

If it were possible to close and line the quarters and then mount the vamp, it would be much more elegant. But then...how do you mount and sew the vamp lining?!!

If I can get past this issue, I think I've got the rest in hand.


Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

DW,

It's nice to have a post machine to sew this type of upper but it's not necessary.

I don't share your concern of not sewing the quarter linings under the vamp edge. What would that do? The seam that attaches the upper vamp to the quarters is maybe 1/32” from where the stitch at the facing ends. There really is not tension between the upper and the lining in that area anyway.

The overlap of the quarter lining on the other quarter lining is something you can't do if you attach the lining to the quarters first and sew beyond the vamp line. That part is functional since it will keep the facings together. There is always tension in a model like this pulling the facings apart.

As I mentioned, you can put a hand stitch connecting the facings at the vamp point, that will keep the facings together but I still like the added insurance of the quarter linings being attached to each other.

there is going to be a certain amount of "awkwardness" as the roller presserfoot of the machine comes on and off the facing from/to the vamp.

Not really, only the fist two stitches and the last two stitches will bring the roller foot close enough to the vamp to make you want to slow down and make sure it rolls on and off the vamp well.

But then...how do you mount and sew the vamp lining?!!

Technically it's not hard to close the quarters, sew the lining to the quarters, than attach to the upper vamp. Since the upper and lining are staggered you can fold the upper vamp back over and you should have plenty of space to sew your vamp lining to the quarter lining, even on a flatbed machine.
In the diagram the green lines would be where you sew your upper vamp to the quarters (pardon the sloppy appearance), the red line is where you sew the lining vamp to the lining quarters, they are staggered by about ¼”. Since your lining is not attached beyond the vamp facing point you can fold the upper far enough back to get in there and have enough space left to park your car


Hope this get you past the issue. Many ways to skin the cat here as well and he still ain't liking it. Making both upper and lining and than putting them together makes most sense to me but someone else's mileage may vary.

Rob

(Message edited by relferink on August 16, 2007)

BTW,

I just realize that what you were probably thinking of doing is sewing the upper vamp to the quarters and the lining. I would definitely not do that. You want to protect the structural seam that holds the upper vamp to the quarters. If you sew through the lining, the movement of the foot inside the shoe can cause the seam to fail. You don't want that!

Tim,

Is the way I set up and assemble the oxford similar to your ways? If not I'd be interested in finding out what you do different.

Rob

Rob,

Despite the temptation, no...I was not thinking of sewing the vamp all the way through the quarterlinings. I want a hung lining. And I want to put on a long heel stiuffener ala the diagram you posted.

Sewing it all the way through is the way I have been doing it on the lace-up boots...and while I've never had the seam fail, it does restrict the length of stiffener. Besides...I've been there, done that & bought the T-shirt--I wouldn't be all in a lather if that was my intention. I know how to do that.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

Guys,

I realised in the middle of the night that I did not make it clear about the folding. If you do what DW does and cut separate pattern pieces for things there is still no problem, I normally draw my nett line on the pattern and then add 5mm lasting allowance. I then use the nett line and after fixing the upper part to the paper pattern, I fold back to the nett line. This eliminates any problems caused by stretch and distortion during skiving, something that happens a lot and would upset any method that used the edge of the leather as a guide. DW just cut a nett pattern and use that.

Robert, there are two methods that I have used to close oxfords, I was taught in college to close the uppers (quarters and vamp and then close the lining in one, even attaching the tongue and folding it back out of the way, then fitting the bag lining into the upper and closing from the front of the facings back around the quarters and back to the front again, stopping when the wheel gets to the vamp edge. The little tab at the front must be rolled out of the way for this. Then you stitch across the front next to the vamp edge once you have trimmed away the lining, then you fold the tongue back into place and stitch across the quarters using the vamp as a guide and the stitching will hold the tongue in place and hold the little tab down too.

In the book I use a slightly different method that is a bit easier and close the lining to the quarters and trim and then stitch the facings together by hand or walking the machine. Then I fit the vamp to the closed quarters and then fit and close the vamp lining and finally glue the tongue into place and stitch across next to the vamp line to hold everything.

All this is relatively easy on a flat bed, and that is why I described it because most people are going to have at least one of those, post machines are a bit more exotic and probably harder to control for a beginner.

Jenny, I will sort out the time and get up if I have to. See you then.

Tim

Tim,

Many ways to get to the same shoe. Thanks for sharing the techniques and explaining the two basic approaches better than I was able to.

Do you in any of the approaches place the lining underlay further forward or match the upper underlay? I've seen both done.
Do you overlap and cement the quarter linings under the vamp for extra strength?

I prefer not having the little seam on the quarters, just above the vamp on the facings. I also like the look of the hand sewn stitch at the bottom of the facings, without the little tab.
Just a personal preference to the look of the shoe. A couple of moths ago Lance posted a link to pictures of work from Tony Gaziano in this post showing very nicely the clean look I'm trying to describe. Plenty of examples there, the fist one being “bespoke shoes 004”

Rob

Rob

Yes I moved my linings down to half the underlay allowance at the facings, that would make it a bit further than you do but gives a bit more room to play with, and like you, I alter the line of the vamp lining so that it keeps well clear of the vamp line because it would leave a large lump as there are two extra layers of material involved.

I have no problem with leaving the tab off, it just seems to normally be there. I can see both sides of the problem and don't think it makes a lot of difference.

The stitching across the quarters is not normally seen because you turn the work around and sew with the needle up against the vamp line and the wheel is further up the quarters. (that's for those who don't know what we are on about). Because that line is so close to the vamp line that if you beat the stitching on the vamp, it will probably cover the stitching anyway, if you sew close enough to the vamp. This is probably just semantics anyway, if I knew what semantics was.

That stitch line holds the tongue up in place too, and because it is wide it will catch the tongue and hold it solidly.


Tim

Rob,

How and when do you attch the tongue on a pair of oxfords?

I'm trying to get as much info out of you guys as possible so that I can compare and choose the methods that I like.

I like the tab, if it is done well...it's very clean and neat. It can also hide a mistake or problem--not that I intend to make any. But I like the hand stitching too...it really says "hand-made." You wouldn't see that on commercial work.

I believe I'm about ready to cut...at least for my "trial shoe."

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

PS. Rob, Tim, Marcell, et al,...

BTW, in case I haven't said it before...thank you for your incredible generosity in sharing this information with all of us. I know the number of questions get to be a lot to deal with sometimes but speaking for the whole forum I want you to know how much it is appreciated.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

Tim,

I agree that ideally the stitching across the quarters is barely or not noticeable. Never did I have a customer make any remarks about it, good or bad. It's just my personal taste and I don't like it. It seems to be an odd seam that stops at the curve of the vamp, it doesn't flow with the lines of the shoe.

Hey, just being my stubborn self. If I wasn't stubborn I wouldn't be a shoemaker, would I?

Rob

DW,

the tongue gets sewn to the lining at the lining underlay. You can sew it in when you put your lining vamp to your lining quarters. To get the placement more accurate you can sew it in that same spot after you hung the lining in the upper.
Since there will be very little tension on the tongue you don't need to attach it to the upper unless you use a cloth front lining. I figure you as a leather guy, not one of the cloth.

The tab is nice and when well done gives a classic look but nothing saids “hand crafted” like that little stitch by hand in just the right spot.

I'm trying to get as much info out of you guys as possible so that I can compare and choose the methods that I like.

That's the best way to learn and do it. In return I would ask you to post the how and why once you decide on a method. I know I don't even have to ask you to do that.

Rob

Rob,

just my personal taste and I don't like it

That's what I like about you guys...you can talk about these issues and express deeply and strongly held opinions without feeling defensive (or offensive) and never look back. I think I am the same sort of person. None of us invented any of this (with a few exceptions); no one's beating our dog (anymore) and we don't need to be personally attached to a technique or offended if someone disagrees with it.

I always envisioned this forum as a "marketplace of ideas" not as a country club where cliques form and folks have to pay their respects to the current (or oldest) poobah, in order to be accepted.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC