One "Last" Question

[gaid]

Frank,
Thank's for your kind words. A side-effect of reading all postings here is that I'm getteing better in my English, but this time I think I just had a stroke of luck!
JEM

[dw]

Frank,

I would be surprised if any of it survived and was in anyway cherished 50-75 years from now. But, to tell the truth, I guess I was being just a tiny bit tongue-in-cheek.

They say a wise man is never honoured in his own country. So it is with Golding, I think. When I first knew I wanted to try my hand at making shoes, I could find no literature and no one to teach me. [In fact, in the last week or so, I have answered three emails from people wondering how to get started in the business--who to turn to to learn from. So things haven't changed much in the quarter of a century plus that I've been around]. Eventually I ran across Mike Ives and learned to make boots. Years later I ran across Al Saguto and among the most generous things he did was point me at the literature. (As you may know, at one time the Guild had a number of photocopies of books such as Rees and Golding that could be obtained.)

Now I have hard bound copies of Leno, and Golding, and Plucknett, and Swaysland (a leather-bound, signed copy), Bordoli, the Gresham series, and even some work books from the Cordwainer's Technical College from the '30s. And of course photocopies of Rees, Korn, parts of Thornton, Sampson, Max Sahm, an even older German text (can't remember the fellows name but it has to be early 1800's), and numerous tidbits. As well as a number of more modern publications both domestic and foreign, such as you refer to.

These latter I find almost useless for bespoke work. Clearly the authors, recognizing the lack of an audience, lack of a market, for anything aimed at the bespoke trade, have tailored their writings to production work and the factory context.

Anyway to cut to the chase...of all the books mentioned above, I find Golding the most useful, the most professional, the most comprehensive...and the most applicable to the bespoke trade. I can see the roots of my own patterning system in Golding...although I never discovered that, nor borrowed anything from Golding, until years later. When I obtained my copy of Korn, I was cautioned at the time that it was pretty much a re-hash of Golding...and from what little I have delved into it, I think that's true.

Golding deals with every aspect of the Trade that someone interested could wish for. He addresses production work and the 'business" aspects of making shoes and boots; he addresses every process of bespoke work; and he speaks to theory and "philosophy."If one is interested, he bridges the gap between 18th century shoemaking and 20th century shoemaking. It's not a complete tutorial but added together, it's the closest I've seen.

Chronologically, I know it's not true but in terms of where we are today, I think Golding is almost *the* seminal work. Not honoured in his own country, indeed.

BTW, you didn't really answer my question about your own experience and how you address fit (esp. oblique fit) with the mean forme system. If you have time and it wouldn't "make you shy" I'd be interested.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[erickgeer]

I got to thinking the other day about types of lasts, and I was wondering this:

How specific are last shapes to the type of construction/bottoms being used. Specifically, I was looking at pictures of double stitched shoes in "Handmade Shoes For Men", and it seemed to me that one would want a last with the sides very perpendicular to the bottom, while it would not be so much of a concern with a "normal" welted shoe. Is this a good interperetation?

Mostly I am just curious, but I am trying out different things that could be effected by this

Thanks,
Erick

[das]

Erick,

Lasts can be very construction-specific, or more generic--"it all depends" is the only answer. Having said that, if you want to emulate the "zwiegenacht" [sp?] "double-stitched", or so-called "reverse-welted" shoes as shown in Vass, I'd think you'd want a nearly slab-sided last, with a very flat "wall" around the forepart and even the waist. I'd try sticking some leather fitings to a standard last to deaden the sides just above the feather-line first, before I invested in special lasts for that one construction. Be sure to double-check the girths, in case these fittings enlarge the last too much.

[btippit]

Erick,

About all I can add to the double stitch conversation is that, for production shoe makers doing what I always heard referred to as "stitchdown" or "stitchout" construction, we would make the last with a bevel coming up from the featherline. This bevel varied but was usually at about a 60-70 degree angle. It could goe from ball to ball around the forepart, extend further back or even run the entire perimeter of the last. It could be anywhere from 1/8th to 1/4 inch wide or slightly wider, especially on the larger sizes. We would actually have two sets of bottom patterns to use as guides, the normal last bottom pattern and the wider one that matched the top edge of the bevel. Sounds like the results of Al's suggestion would result in about the same thing.

And yes, construction plays as much a part in the design of a last as type of shoe, size of foot, etc. Flatter lasts for cement construction, wider, more rounded bottoms for welts, narrower vamp areas and tighter top lines for pumps and other "true fit" footwear, etc.

I hope I understood your question and that this helps.

Bill

[dai]

I am cutting a pair of lasts again for the next attempt at shepherds boots, this time with much more toe spring. Here is a scan of a foot plaster cast with about the amount of spring and pitch I am thinking of:

3093.jpg

On top of the vamp there is a valley as a result of the spring and I am wondering should I leave a bit of wood on the last here (top blue line) or keep cutting wood for a closer fit (top red line).

If I go for the blue line then it seems to me as though the fit relies entirely on the instep area to keep the boot on; and if I go for the red line then if I can last the vamp the strain on the draft tacks area will not run as far back as the counter point but will be somewhere behind the joints once the boot is unlasted. To what effect?

Next issue, the bottom red and blue lines for the range along the sole. I happened to make the plaster cast with the foot on a flat surfaced wooden wedge (bottom red line) but I see makers of shepherds boots and clogs tend toward a curve (somewhat overemphasised in the blue line).

How would others approach these problems I wonder?

[dw]

David,

I'm completely out of my league with these shepherd's boots, but some observations that may or may not help...

In any boot or shoe it is the instep area that is critical for holding the foot in.

Too much space over any area of severe flex will result in wrinkes that could be a source of chafing.

Never disrespect the bottom of the foot. If you add extra under the joint and toes you lose all congruency with the foot.

It is possible to last a boot or shoe into a deeply concave instep. One of golding's authors goes into this calling the lasts "extremes" and recommending hoisting. It might be that hoisting was developed specifically for just such circumstances although perhaps nothing quite so "extreme" was ever envisioned.

not sure anything I said addresses your concerns but those were the thoughts that occured to me. Hope they help.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[erickgeer]

David,
Have you looked at the last making book by Kollef? I found it a good primer for last design (someone else might have an opinion on it). By drafting it out on paper would help you get the desired toe spring and joint measure. Looking at pictures of Shepherds boots and comparing them to a drafting would help you get the lines you want.

When you made the wood models for your first pair, did you use a plaster cast as well?

I'd never heard of hoisting before reading DW's books, and now I don't think I would last any other way. (disclaimer: I have yet to try it on my last with the extreme upturned toe, but it should be ideal)

I hope this is helpful,

Erick

[cmw]

David

Like the others, this is out of my league, Way! out!

One thing that you might look into is building part of the toe spring into the sole of the boot. That way, there will not be quite so much bend in the foot.

At my last job/apprenticeship we did this for some of the soldiers. You sew the neopren after grinding the forfoot to the needed shape. More bend as you get closer to the toe from the ball/met.-line . After that put the sole on

This can also be done with a sole that is inside the boot.

I hope it helps
CW

[relferink]

David,

One of the risks you run if you just randomly add material around the ball of the foot is that the shoe / boot you make will not hold the foot, what happens is that the pressure on the instep gets to much, the customer (or yourself) will loosen the laces and the foot slides forward. A general rule to thumb is to add 1 cm to the circumference ball measurement and leave the other sizes the same as you measure them. This for the particular reason of sliding forward and having to much material that will wrinkle and press down on the toes like DW mentioned.

Without knowing anything about the specific type of Sheppard's boot you are making I would say you should be closer to the red line but more important than the line is the ball measurement. The toe length does not seem enough to me. How did you cast, full weight bearing or just partial. If the last you need to count for expanding of the foot. Once you know how long the foot is expanded you add anywhere from 1 to 1.5 cm. In your case 1 would probably be enough due to the high toe spring the foot wants more than likely stay down in the deepest point.

I'm not sure what you mean by

and if I go for the red line then if I can last the vamp the strain on the draft tacks area will not run as far back as the counter point but will be somewhere behind the joints once the boot is unlasted.

It probably is because I'm not familiar enough with the type of boot you make. Is the boot having a ballow tong seamless from the vamp. In that case you will have a problem getting it in there otherwise it should not be to hard as long as you make a good pattern.

On the bottom you should again not add to much material around the ball. I'm not sure how much allowance I would give just in front of the ball, you don't want to get the feeling you are walking up to a “ridge” with every step but also don't want to give the foot to much room to slide forward. Rounding the bottom is good, imagine having a flat forefoot in your last, as you walk and go into the toe off phase the foot rolls over the ball forward drops uncontrolled and rapidly until it hits the flat plateau. This will make it stop suddenly and put major stresses on the ball and toes what can cause all kinds of problems like hallux rigidus (stiff big toe) and toe trauma. I'm a very poor computer drawer but this is kind of what I'm thinking off. (green line)

3095.jpg

Are you making a last out of a block of wood , modify a stock last or are you using the mold as a basis? Doing the last will make the fit probably better.

Hope this helped you some, if not it kept me from getting into trouble for a little while. I have to get back to building my partition wall for my new shop. A couple more weeks and I hope to be up and running. Work is starting to pile up.

Good luck with the lasts

Rob

(Message edited by relferink on June 22, 2004)

[marc]

just as an interesting addition to this - a gentleman just sent me some pictures of some shepherd's boots he bought off of ebay. I'm inclosing one of them for information purposes.

3097.jpg

Marc

[erickgeer]

Marc,
Do you know the origin of these boots?

Erick

[marc]

The gentleman who sent me the picture says they were made as "shepherd's boots" in Turkey in the 1960s presumably for the tourist trade.

Marc

[dai]

DW, Eric, Chris, Robert, Marc. Thank you all for the extensive information you have provided following my query about designing the shepherds boot lasts. A note responding to each of you follows.

DW

Thank you for providing some useful principles and noting that the very sprung last is a case of "extremes".

Fortunately the instep area is normal enough and can hold hold the foot in as you advise.

I had anticipated that a large space across the joints would cause wrinkles and chafe at this high flex point, then I wondered (in this case of extremes) if it was acceptable because the amount of flexing would be minimal i.e. the toe is already as turned up as it is going to be in wear.

I certainly did disrespect the bottom of the foot in one of the lines of the drawing, and I could sense the loss of congruency with the foot!

Using hoisting to help with lasting into the deeply concave region sounds interesting. I will ponder and study hoisting.

Eric

Thank for for permission to buy Kollef's book; nothing makes me happier than parcels of books.

I have used photos of shepherds boots to help me with drafting as you suggest and got different results from when I used the plaster cast as the source of draft. That made me question what I was trying to achieve; to make a shepherds boot of known style, or to ponder the problems of a very sprung toe from a cast of the foot. Expressing it like this to you has given me a clearer view of the bind I am in, and how to get out of it by choosing one of the options.

For the first pair I made I did also make a plaster cast, but just of a foot flat on the ground, no spring or heel pitch wedges or blocks. I just found the cast a handy reference to what a foot looked like rather than an exact model for the last.

I did hoist my first pair in lasting, that is if hoisting is to raise the heel end of the uppers toward the counter point of the last while putting in toe and draft tacks, then working the heel end back into position, but I made no allowance in my pattern for hoisting (as somewhere it was suggested). If that sounds confused, well it is. I'm off to study hoisting.

So I can buy DW's books too? I better see my manager.

Chris

What you say about building in the spring as you make the boot clarifies something for me. Somewhere it was suggested springing a boot by bending it, once it was off the last. I wondered how it was going to hold its shape. I though if there a few pegs put in or hobnails perhaps this would fix it. Doing this springing by bending the unlasted boot then putting on the sole I can understand. Is this what you meant? Thank you.

Robert

Your green line on the graphic is worth a thousand words. Thank you for cleverly adding a proper space for my toes which were foreshortened when I ran out of space on the picture. Yes, the toes seem short in the graphic of the cast; a problem of putting big objects into the scanner instead of having a camera perhaps!

The general rule of thumb you give is helpful: to add 1 cm to the circumference ball measurement and leave the other sizes the same as measured. And this choice would be quite near the red line of the original graphic.

Regarding the foot sliding forward, and having excess material that will wrinkle and chafe as DW mentions. I wonder if the extreme spring itself prevents lessens the extent to which both things could happen i.e. the foot moving forward and the wrinkling tendency?

I will try and describe my understanding of the strains during lasting in another post (the quoted part of your message).

I appreciate your pointing out the dangers of toe traumas and similar, and that rounding the sole is good. Had I been able to draw it then I would have included your green line path too, as I had it on my mind. But without this discussion I would still have been at a loss as to which to choose.

I have made an allowance of about two third of an inch toe space beyond the toes of the plaster cast, for the lasts, as you advise. Although I have mentioned unexpected effects of toespring regarding wrinkles and flexing I hadnt thought of your point, that the toespace could conveniently be less than usual.

This graphic is of a Goudie made shepherds boot, which was described for sale as "fully sprung".

3102.jpg

When I look at it I wonder if the idea for its original design began with a request from a clog wearer for a leather soled version of a favourite clog. Walkleys today show a "farmers clog" in their online catalogue which has an ankle boot upper and with a range line along the sole which to my eye is near to the Goudies pattern. I can see from the image of the Goudies and from my thoughts about drafting a last model using the plaster cast that I was trying to do two somewhat different things at once. Your "green line" and the idea of a clog sole range to the leather soled shepherds boot help bring those things together, as Tom hints at in his comments about Erick's new shoe.

Marc

Your picture of the Turkish shepherds boots is more to think about. Thank you for showing it. I will have to watch my terminology now and specify Scottish shepherds boots when I intend them. It is interesting to think of variation in styles to suit the terrain and from a different tradition in the same occupation.

[cmw]

David


The idea was to make an orthotic in a sense. You can make a pair of shoe walk on their own-Almost! Especially if you move the ball/met-line back towards the heel a cm and get the curve right. You can also end the orthotic just behind the met.-line. You have to be careful about putting something like this on and old ladies shoes! In your case it would be for the toe spring.

Robert could explain better than I can, I learn all this stuff in Danish and it’s not always easy to find the right words in English

The “orthotic” (for lack of words. we call it a “gængesal”) can be put between the insole and the sole or made into the boot (between the last and the insole) Cork would be light. There are plenty of other materials for the inside of the boot. Something like 6 -8 mm would really cut down on the bend in the foot/last. But then again you will be getting away from the genuine look of the boot, if it is not hidden inside the boot.

Somebody mentioned cloggs a while back, they are a good example.

I hope it helps.
A Tired Texan

CW

[shoestring]

What's the reason for such a spring in a "Shepheard's Boot"?
Ed

[cmw]

Ed

I would think for walking up hills, But that only a guess.

[dw]

All,

Just a few...probably fully un-informed comments...The boot in the photo above looks like it had been sprung *after the fact*. It looks, to me, as if it will bite into the toes quite severely. That heavy wrinkle doesn't bode well, in my opinion. Probably better to build the toe spring into the last than to try to "spring" it after lasting.

The remark about clogs made me think about where and how a boot such as this might be worn. In hilly country, certainll. And it might be made of very heavy leather to cope with brush and rock and the elements. A boot made of very heavy leather might indeed profit from a lot of toe spring. It would be less difficult to bend and walk in especially in hilly country. It would be pre-broken in, so to speak.

Anyway...that's just an observation or two of no particular relevance.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[dai]

Chris, Edward, DW

Sorry about the delay in responding, I have been down south as Tom guessed (how does he do it?). Yes Edward, the toe spring is for hill walking. Chris, thanks for further explaining, now I see that you mean to include an orthotic rather than put the spring in after unlasting.

DW the hill boot at the rear of the photo (my previous post in this thread) is from a different pair and maker than the one in the foreground. In the boot at the rear (toecapped) I see a more prominent wrinkle, and I know that these had less spring when they were made than those in the foreground. The hill puts the spring in, want it or not -so it seems? So as you say, put the spring into the last.

I think its in Leno, a line about springing boots once they are taken off the last. There was no explanation of the purpose, just the method of bending. When I read it I wondered about the impending wrinkle and also wondered if I was reading the meaning correctly, being a novice. Thanks for the assurance that the wrinkle is likely though not at all desirable. I wonder if, in boots worn continually on the hill, that the wrinkle is nevertheless inevitable, and moreso with a less sprung toe? All this speaks in favour of making a purpose built well sprung last for a hill boot perhaps? As yet I havent been able to find one, or a picture of one anywhere, which is why I was interested to see Erick's well sprung last, in gallery gossip.

Which brings me back to ladies high heels and drafting tacks! Here is the plaster cast made from a foot raised on a heel block and supported by a wedge under the toe.

3114.jpg

The orange line numbered 1 is I think the sort of main tension that would exist in a less sprung boot; from toe to counter point. The orange lines numbered 2 and 3 together are the main tensions that could exist in a ladies high heeled shoe and -a well sprung shepherds boot to keep the toe sprung so much. Which brings me to ask, what are the principles of lasting something like this, for example the sequence for placing the tacks and taking the strains.

Now, I can see it coming; some comment on shepherds in kilts and high heels. Please, settle down and focus on the main thing!

[cmw]

David

When pinning some of the orth.-shoes at work(larger spring), we use a few tricks to make the job easier.

We usually pull the toe some-what taught and lock it with three nails. This is done with the heel of the upper not pulled down in place yet.

What I do now with a pair that has more toe spring is cut an inch and a half wide strip of skin. Do a good job of shiving the sides. We pin and last dry so we use talcum on the last and the strip and the uppers. With this strip you can let the heel section of the upper sit higher up while pinning the vamp area. when you pull the heel section down hold the upper and the strip together when you pull. You’ll avoid any ripping this way. Once in place pull the strip out!!!!

BTW, the strip is layed closest to the last then the upper is pulled over.

When pinning a pair with a large spring, sometimes I’ll avoid pinning the toe first. But pull the toe taught after the fact.

The boy and packing for the move calls.
From one beginner to another
CW

[dai]

Chris
Thank you for explaining this method for lasting a pair with more toe spring. When you "let the heel section of the upper sit higher up while pinning the vamp area", is that what is called "hoisting"?

Is the purpose of the strip, skived on both sides, to give some friction to help the hoisted upper stay in place, until you pull it down again? I did approximately the same things on the first boots.

It is the final method you describe, for large spring, that I was thinking of when I mentioned lasting "ladies high heels". You mention that you avoid pinning the toe first with large spring. So do you first pin just before the joints while hoisting, and then pin the toe?

[cmw]

David

I’m afraid that I’m guilty of allot of sins, one is not keeping up with all the term ya’ll use in English. hoisting is one of those. Sorry!

What we usually do when pinning is this(in general terms):
-line the upper up in the last so the uppers look straight ( speaking of the shoe laces and such)
-pin the toe with three nail to lock it there, leaving the heel section up high on the heel of the last.
-pin med.-line(ball)and vamp area.
-pull the heel section down. Waiting with this gives a tight fit on the last.

Now the reason for the strip.
If you let the heel section of the upper sit very high on the last when pinning the vamp you will have problems pulling it down because of the tension. the strip gives some extra support to the skin when pulling down. Remember we pin dry! Another thing that might help here is give yourself more skin for pinning when you design the uppers. If you do this you will have to cut it off once the upper is pull down. It gets in the way when finish pinning

About the the toe. If you think of a rope pulled taught from A(last top) to B(toe), you’ll have a hard time pulling middle of the rope to another spot. when you make the boots you are talking about you will have this problem.

I was taught (in general) to pin towards the ball from the toe and the heel. This collects the surplus around the ball. To avoid the above mention problem you could pin the ball (pulling away from the ball) You have to feel your way here because the idea behind the usual way is to avoid wrinkles. You could also think of how the the tension in one direction could stop you from pulling taught in another direction. In short which line of tension if most important in the your case?

While I’m thinking about it, the strip makes it easier to pull the uppers down friction wise. Especially if you have a last that is banged up a little.

I hope this helps.

From one beginner to another

[shoestring]

Question,
I don't want to sound like an ignoramus here,but I was reading the section on lasting in the Golding and maybe I read to much or not enough and studing the diagrams.I don't see where it mentions placing adhesive to the linning and upper to began lasting.Glue is only to the counters,heel an toe box.Also am I understanding he's pulling the linning then the upper to get everything to conform to the last.My first attempt to last is that I glued all parts my main problem was lasting around the toe everything else worked out fine.And the next toe box I attempt will be like the photo lesson described by DW.I guess what I am asking is setting everything in place than lasting correct/incorrect or the way one was trained.
Ed

[dw]

Ed,

I can't speak for every maker and every method. We all tend to do what we are taught or what works for us.Nothing wrong with that. But here's my take.

I would not glue my linings and vamps together prior to lasting. Two reasons...first, it impairs the "breathability" of the shoe. The glue itself does this especially if it is something like all purpose. Second, there may be slight anomalies or misfit between the shape, or the size, or the way in which the lining and vamp were mounted on the uppers and by gluing the two together you only "lock in" those problems. For instance if your lining is a hair bigger than your vamp, or you've mounted it in such a way that excess is created relative to the vamp, then when you glue the two together, you'll never be able to rid the shoe of that excess. You may even find that there's a wrinkle or "pipe" in the lining (under the vamp) and you've no way to pull it out.

Practically speaking...making boots...my vamps are almost always the same size and shape as the vamps (but this is not always the case with shoes). As a consequence, I do not pull the lining separately...at least not in a concerted effort. Sure, I make sure that there is no excess in the lining but then I pull the vamp and the lining together. But as I say, with shoes (depending on the patterning system you are using, there may very well be some discrepancy...deliberate discrepancy...between the lining and the vamp. In such cases, it makes good sense to pull and even tack down the lining before you draft the vamp.

Hope that helps....

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[shoestring]

"In such cases, it makes good sense to pull and even tack down the lining before you draft the vamp."

DW,
This is how I understood it while reading the Golding IV section on lasting

"For instance if your lining is a hair bigger than your vamp, or you've mounted it in such a way that excess is created relative to the vamp, then when you glue the two together, you'll never be able to rid the shoe of that excess. You may even find that there's a wrinkle or "pipe" in the lining (under the vamp) and you've no way to pull it out."

I encountered this also so therefore I will regroup and follow how Golding describes his method.Beings that I must be teacher/student.
Thanks for the response,Igor and I are back to the lab.
Ed