The Crispin Colloquy

Any type of a dubbin compound will help make a rough out shoe more water resistant. The type of construction will help as well. Shepherds most likely have access to tallow which is an excellent basis for any dubbin. I have made my own from oil(neatsfoot), beeswax and tallow in the proportions of 1,1,3. After this has set or dried a little any paste wax will impart some type of shine to a R.O. although you might never get a high gloss. R.O. shoes do not show the effects of hard use as easily as grain side out.
Tmattimore

Dave,

Unlined, flesh-out uppers, from an historical perspective, predominate over grain uppers for men's utilitarian boots and shoes--even some very fine ones--c.1650-1890s. The better stuff being the famous "waxed calf" [actually East India kip], finished black on the flesh.

In all events, here're the advantages:

1) No need for separate linings to save wear on stockings, and for comfort--the grain's already inside

2) Inferior skins can be used--blemishes on the grain like insects damage and scars won't show

3) Coloring on the flesh is easier/faster/cheaper--just lampblack [oil soot carbon], tallow, beeswax, oil, soap-glop "smutting", not complicated logwood dyes, iron-black stain recipes, etc., many of which were acid-based and can shorten the life of the leather or lead to cracking

4) In rough wear scuffs and scratches on the flesh can be burnished away--if the grain gets scratched, it's an incurable matter

5) It is more waterproof, as the flesh will accept, absorb, and retain more dubbin and other similar grease treatments than the grain

6) More durable, heavier skin--because no lining is used, the upper is not composed of two thin layers of, say, 3 oz. skins, but one thicker layer of 5-6oz.

Problems [today]:

1) We can't find good 5oz. East India kips anymore, and are forced to use domestic vegetable-tanned top-grain splits to get the correct thickness. I have seen some passable waxed calf made from water buffalo. You'll want to try and find a "whole-grain", not split-down, skin, veg-tanned, around 5-6oz., and the smaller sides/younger animals [try for sides in the 16-18 ft. range--these will be from younger beasts, retaining more corium fibers with less flesh split-off IOW]

2) Compared with buying leather already finished, having to blacken and curry your own waxed calf takes more time [$]

3) It's "dirty" leather to work with and wear--the blacking rubs off all over everything in the shop, as well as the wearer's cloths, etc.

4) It's "high maintenance" [higher than chrome tanned], because like all veg-tanned uppers, it needs constant feeding, especially if worn in the wet

It has its charm though, and given a choice I'd use nothing but the old waxed-calf myself, but I prefer the antiquated

Al

Thank you for your discussion of grain side out, dressings, waxed East India kips and the possible modern alternatives.

That the flesh side out leather will accept, absorb, and retain more grease treatments than the grain seems a major advantage for farm use. One UK tanner I spoke with supplies a very lightly dressed (whiffs of cod oil) and surface finished leather to a maker of shepherds boots in his neighbourhood, since as he explains, the wearers of these want to grease the boots with their own dressings, pretty much the rule rather than the exception, even nowadays, for these customers.

When does the lampblack mixture go on; onto the leather before cutting out or after making the boot? I am thinking here of smearing less soot around by using one approach or the other. I will be up the chimney looking for materials this afternoon.

Theres no end of wet fresh cattle hides of all ages and reared on extensive or intensive systems available in to me in New Zealand, but not tanned -at least not for retail sale. Salted or pickled, or tanned for export is where they mostly go from here. So now I have to dig a tan pit!

Up the chimney, down the tan pit, make your own lasts, awls, threads and goops. I hope the wages are good :&#62

Tom

Thanks for your tallow based dubbin recipe for use on rough out shoes. Yes, shepherds would have access to animal fats, even a selection of them. In a recent video on the shepherds of Snowdon (Wales) it mentions in passing that many of the Snowdon shepherds have their own recipes, and one featured shepherd uses lard.

I recall warnings (in the UK rural community) about using dubbin because it was said to "rot the stitching"; presumably a hangover from the days of natural threads, linen or hemp. I thought perhaps this would be related to the solvent effect of fats washing out the pitch in waxing the threads (I clean my hands with a bit of tallow after making waxed threads). If the fat was the problem then possibly any fat would also be off the menu, so I wonder if it was something about the proprietary dubbins available, or perhaps it was just a rumour put about by the vendors of snake-oil shoe dressings. One retailed dubbin I remember was a greenish thick paste, smelling of lanolin (sheep wool fat). If this was wool fat from the wool cleaning process (wool scour) then perhaps it had some scour chemicals left in there that did the harm.

You might have to ask some one more versed in chemistry then I. In my experience linen will show more ill in dry leather then moderatly cared for leather. When I rebuilt saddles for a living I noticed that even 100 year old ones still had good stitching in them unless either too well oiled or too dry. I think the Quality of linen thread began to fall sharply around WW2. The handmade threads of the early saddlers appears to be of longer fibers, you notice these things when you have to pick out a few hundred stitches by hand.
Tom Mattimore

Tom,

In passing, I thought I would mention that I tried three of my suppliers Friday to buy some Barbour's #10 Linen Hand Shoe Thread. All three said it was a discontinued item!

So....for those of us who like to make our own threads every once in a while, we're *&@# out of luck. In the past, I've ordered some linen from Germany, but the company who handled it has been sold. Changing times fellers......

David,

I wouldn't fret over dubbin rotting natural threads. I've got pairs I made over 25 years ago still in service out there in the reinactor community, dubbin, linen threads and all. And they don't get much TLC or maintenance either, but the threads haven't perished.

Would you share with us the English source for the "lightly dressed" upper leather?

Before you sweep out your chimney in search for "lamp-black", be aware that since the 1700s at least, "lamp-black" was a fine industrially-produced carbon powder, made by burning trenches of oil, and collecting the soot on sheets of metal arranged over the burning oil [see: Diderot]. The metal sheets collected the soot, like the glass globe on Aunt Minnie's oil-burning lamp, which were periodically shaken to release and dump the built-up soot. I don't know how well fireplace/chimney soot from burning wood would do for this. Ask your telephone repair man about powdered carbon--I got mine from mine. Also, there was some discussion on here years ago about the possibility of using photo-copier/printer toner. Anyway, there are modern ways around getting/making "lamp-black".

The English waxed-calf was bought/sold already black and finished. You could try blacking them after making, but I'd think it would be messier still. You certainly want to load the flesh up with the blacking *before* you load it up with dubbin.

Tom,
The deterioration in quality of Thread since the middle of the last century has probably got a lot to do with the fact that the chemical retting is faster and easier than the traditional methods, but weakens the fibers.

Of course, it could be the whole decline of the Flax industry in the US thing too...

Marc

Another reason, I'm told by a textile-guru, is that plant fibers are all prepared machinery designed for cotton, so even if you were to start with long-staple flax, it would get chopped or broken into c. 3" staples just by the machinery that can't handle longer fibers.

Al

The English source for a lightly dressed upper leather tanned for one shepherd's boot maker is Clayton of Chesterfield (claytonleather.com) in Derbyshire; where a "Shepherd's Boot" becomes a "Fell Boot". My contact was Roger Birkin.

25 years of life for threads certainly doesn't condemn dubbin as a thread rotter. Thank you for that information.

I have spilt both printer toner and soot around the place in the past while paying more attention to the domestic and social effects than the chemical. Time for another experiment perhaps? No, I will settle for carbon powder from the telephone repairs person.

Dee-Dubb,

I've tried to find the answer to this question, because I know you've answered it before. Heck if I can find it. And yes, I've searched the archive CD.

Anyway, on your "fitter's model", is the only place you use soling leather the insole and counter? What materials do you use for constructing your fitter's model?

Thanks in advance!

Dee-Dubb,

I was thinking you said:

crepe soles and heels
leather insoles and counters
scrap upper materials for the rest
cement construction

Did I get it right?

Jake,

I don't know that I have answered it before...don't remember. But unless you think hard about what keywords you want to use while searching, this particular search engine can be kind of cranky.

I use insole leather ...the same insole I will use for the finished boot but unchanneled. I use counter leather same as I would ordinarily use but marginal quality as I'll throw this away, and I omit the lasting margin. Scrap top leather turned shiney side in, to allow the foot to slide in, with a partial "outside lining" to give the FM tops the same lack of stretch, etc., as the finished boot.. A little heavier than usual vamp turned shiney side in, no lining. Strip welt of indeterminate weight. Hot melt construction after lasting in lieu of inseaming. Same shanks as for the finished boot. A rubber (reusable) sole, oversize usually, AP'd on with a leather heel block and rubber cap. Sole and heel to be reusable so not trimmed to the last with any degree of accuracy. I don't use the crepe anymore--it camouflaged the "underfoot" feel of the final boot.


I hope that helps, Jake. Ask more if you want more detail.


Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

frommer@bootmaker.com
http://www.bootmaker.com

"Little Jack Dandiprat, in a white petticoat,
The longer he lives the shorter he grows."

Dee-Dubb,

Explained very well, and understood! Thanks Ol'Buddy!
Fix'n to get away for a day. Happy Easter Everyone!
Have a safe one!

Adios, Jake

Can anybody make sense out of what this Hungarian site is all about. I couldn't get any pix, if there are any, nor addresses of suppliers, if they're linked--just cross-referencing that goes on forever:

http://classifications.mszh.hu/ipc/ipc7/ea43d.htm

Not sure this helps but ...

It appears to be the classification from the
Hungarian Patent Office. It would be wierd
if it had anything other than cross referencing.

Al,

I got the same thing. Didn't see any photos or illustrations. Looks like it might be the beginning of an index for an online treatise or something.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

frommer@bootmaker.com
http://www.bootmaker.com

"Little Jack Dandiprat, in a white petticoat,
The longer he lives the shorter he grows."

It's from the International Patent Classification system, section A 43 "Footwear". You can find out more about it at http://www.wipo.int/classifications/en/ .

Marc

I keep running across/hearing the term "string lasting", but I haven't been able to find a definition for this, can anyone tell me what this means?
I have seen "string lasting knves" in some catalogs.
A little while ago DW posted a suggestion for cement construction, with the lasting allowance whip stitched together - is that relevent to my question?
Thanks,
Erick

Erick,

I am not a custom boot or shoe maker, although I would like to be. But I have worked in footwear manufacturing for the last 20 years (mostly cowboy boots). What I consider string lasting may not be the same terminology as that of a custom bootmaker. But here it is anyway:

With certain exotic leathers we opt for hand-lasting instead of machine lasting. In those cases, we will hand-last the upper in much the same way as a custom bootmaker. While the boot is still wet (or you can re-wet it), remove all the lasting tacks from the end of the toe, leaving one on each side about 2 inches from the end of the toe (enough room to pull back the vamp and insert a boxtoe). Insert the boxtoe between the vamp and lining. We use a solvent activated boxtoe material. Take a piece of string about 18 inches long, preferably nylon, double it, and tie the two ends together. Loop the end with the knot over the lasting tack opposite your strong arm (if you are right-handed, then the left side). Drive the tack in to secure the string. Then carefully pull the string around the toe of the boot being careful to work out any wrinkles. You can use the handle of your lasting plyers or any straight tool to slip through the loop of the string and use for a handle. The string should pull the vamp tightly over the last and against the outside egde of your insole channel. Wrap the string around the lasting tack on the other side, and drive it in to secure. Once the boot is dry, and the boxtoe sets up, you can remove the string and the remainder of the lasting tacks, and you're ready to trim and inseam.

I hope this is what you were looking for. I'm a new member. I figure if you're going to jump in , you may as well jump in with both feet.

Thanks,
Michael

Thanks, I didn't know if it was a description for lasting the entire shoe/boot. How does a string lasting knife come into play?

Is this a common way to work out the excess wrinkles? I have always been able to go into the fine pipes with needle nose pliers to work those out - would it be to my advantage to learn the string lasting technique? I had noticed that all of the different types of lasting pliers were too big for the fine wrinkles.

Thanks,
Erick

Michael, Erick,

Welcome to the Crispin Colloquy, Michael.

I've seen the whole forepart of a boot lasted in much the same way that Michael describes, using monofilament or something very similar. And I've seen traces of this monofilament all around brogues and other kinds of shoes.

That said, I don't have any experience with it at all. Have never seen it done in person, and if anyone could render a definitive opinion, it dern sure wouldn't be me.

I will say this, however, I think you can eliminate all wrinkles from a shoe or boot with just the lasting pincers...except, perhaps, around a medium or narrow toe. There, I use a leather "wiping strip." And a wiping strip around the heel and any kind of toe, just because it is easier thatnb having to fuss with each pipe and wrinkle. Beyond that, from the descriptions I seen and heard of using mono or other strings, my impression is that the leather might be easier to handle, in any case.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

frommer@bootmaker.com
http://www.bootmaker.com

"Little Jack Dandiprat, in a white petticoat,
The longer he lives the shorter he grows."

There is a lasting technique known as sting lasting wherein a series of triangle cuts are made in the edge of the upper, a cord layed in and the points folded over and glued. The upper is then placed on the last and and a lasting machine pulls the cord and sometimes wipes the toe. Of course the upper has to be carefully fit to the particular last. As a factory technique it has fallen by the way but as far as I know is still in use for some ladies shoes. It may still be in use for sneaker or injection molded construction. The sting lasting knife is used to cut the cord ends from the machine. It is used mostly to pull the forepart.
Tmattimore

Tom,

That's interesting. I've never heard or seen that before. I suspected there was more to this than what we had already discussed but to tell the truth, I've never even been in a shoe factory. Thanks for that explanation.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

frommer@bootmaker.com
http://www.bootmaker.com

"Little Jack Dandiprat, in a white petticoat,
The longer he lives the shorter he grows."

BTW:

Rees and the "old" guys [ne "dead guys"] discuss what DW calls "wiping" here, as "bracing", i.e. using a thread-end to wipe the toe wrinkles in tight. Attach it to a lasting tack on one side of the toe, pull it tight around outside the lasting tacks, wind it around a tack on the opposite side, and by twisting that tack, tightening the thread-end to really get things pulled in smooth.

I've tried this, but am a convert to using a narrow strip of scrap leather for this operation.