Al
Thanks
Its always that 2nd one through that is the bugger. I will overcome!!
Gary C
Thread
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gcunning
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D.A. Saguto--HCC
Re: Thread
Marc,
It's easy, they're usually the friendly ones with faint accents, with old Victrola phonograph-music playing in the background.
Gary,
Keep at it, it will come.
It's easy, they're usually the friendly ones with faint accents, with old Victrola phonograph-music playing in the background.
Gary,
Keep at it, it will come.
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Duncan McHarg
Re: Thread
Al,
When using nylon bristles I go about the stitching the same way.Works a treat (even when using just beeswax; which leads me onto...)
DW,I was thinking of the taper on boars bristle correctly, hide end thick,air end thin.I'll have to spell it out next time
You ever tried taking apart a seam held together with linen that's only been beeswaxed? It's out with the knife my man
I shall now depart to continue typing in the Lastless data Part 1.(measuring & making the pattern)to get ready for sending soon.Nearly there Marc,nearly there.
Cheers Duncan
When using nylon bristles I go about the stitching the same way.Works a treat (even when using just beeswax; which leads me onto...)
DW,I was thinking of the taper on boars bristle correctly, hide end thick,air end thin.I'll have to spell it out next time
You ever tried taking apart a seam held together with linen that's only been beeswaxed? It's out with the knife my man I shall now depart to continue typing in the Lastless data Part 1.(measuring & making the pattern)to get ready for sending soon.Nearly there Marc,nearly there.
Cheers Duncan
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dw
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Re: Thread
Duncan,
Either way, properly done up, there is *less* of a lump, and less resistance than with thread folded over on itself. That only makes sense. A bristle comes the closest to using nothing but a super stiff taw.
Well, again our philosophies diverge...the *last* thing I want is an inseam that is easy to get out. If it's easy to get out, it means the threads are slipping past each other and that means trouble, in my opinion. If one stitch is damaged, all the neighboring stitches are in real jeopardy...simply because they will slip. If they'll come "out with the knife," they'll come out with the flexing of the shoe. To me, it seems a little like a cabinetmaker using wheat paste for the joints of a chair. When I put in an inseam, I want it to be *hard* to get out, impossible to move and as impervious to moisture or dust as possible.
Tight Stitches...
DWFII--Member HCC
I was thinking of the taper on boars bristle correctly, hide end thick,air end thin.
Either way, properly done up, there is *less* of a lump, and less resistance than with thread folded over on itself. That only makes sense. A bristle comes the closest to using nothing but a super stiff taw.
You ever tried taking apart a seam held together with linen that's only been beeswaxed? It's out with the knife my man
Well, again our philosophies diverge...the *last* thing I want is an inseam that is easy to get out. If it's easy to get out, it means the threads are slipping past each other and that means trouble, in my opinion. If one stitch is damaged, all the neighboring stitches are in real jeopardy...simply because they will slip. If they'll come "out with the knife," they'll come out with the flexing of the shoe. To me, it seems a little like a cabinetmaker using wheat paste for the joints of a chair. When I put in an inseam, I want it to be *hard* to get out, impossible to move and as impervious to moisture or dust as possible.
Tight Stitches...
DWFII--Member HCC
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D.A. Saguto--HCC
Re: Thread
Duncan,
___________________
"You ever tried taking apart a seam held together with linen that's only been beeswaxed? It's out with the knife my man[ ]"
___________________
Not to butt in here, but this is precisely why we traditionally avoid beeswax on threads, and use that sticky wax made with rosin, pitch, etc. It literally glues the thread fast. Consider the outsole stitching--once one has worn through the stitching on the bottom, the only thing holding the sole to the welt are little "pegs" of thread (the broached stitches). This is one place where there's a clear advantage to the rosin-based wax over beeswax, because it'll hold everything tight[er].
On the other hand, you ever tried taking apart a seam held with linen that's been waxed with sticky-wax? You'll be fussing and cussing trying to get the threads out of the holes, it holds that well :>
___________________
"You ever tried taking apart a seam held together with linen that's only been beeswaxed? It's out with the knife my man[
]" ___________________
Not to butt in here, but this is precisely why we traditionally avoid beeswax on threads, and use that sticky wax made with rosin, pitch, etc. It literally glues the thread fast. Consider the outsole stitching--once one has worn through the stitching on the bottom, the only thing holding the sole to the welt are little "pegs" of thread (the broached stitches). This is one place where there's a clear advantage to the rosin-based wax over beeswax, because it'll hold everything tight[er].
On the other hand, you ever tried taking apart a seam held with linen that's been waxed with sticky-wax? You'll be fussing and cussing trying to get the threads out of the holes, it holds that well :>
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Duncan McHarg
Re: Thread
DW & Al,
By the term 'out with the knife' I meant you have to cut all the stitches by slipping it between the layers of leather and slicing them one by one.
(mental note;be obvious next time)
I hope to try coad at some stage;I've put a small hole in a pine tree nearby,we'll see what happens! We have a forestry school in the next town and they have their own pine forest.Might see if I'm allowed to poke around.
A few years ago I bought an old shoemakers toolbox and in it were 2 lumps of pine resin and a lump of stiff black doughy stuff.Don't know about the last thing but I've been wondering whether to use the resin or save it.
Cheers Duncan
By the term 'out with the knife' I meant you have to cut all the stitches by slipping it between the layers of leather and slicing them one by one.
(mental note;be obvious next time
) I hope to try coad at some stage;I've put a small hole in a pine tree nearby,we'll see what happens! We have a forestry school in the next town and they have their own pine forest.Might see if I'm allowed to poke around.
A few years ago I bought an old shoemakers toolbox and in it were 2 lumps of pine resin and a lump of stiff black doughy stuff.Don't know about the last thing but I've been wondering whether to use the resin or save it.
Cheers Duncan
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fjones
Re: Thread
Having followed the discussion here for some time, I hesitate to butt-in. Particularly because I have found it very interesting and as always, I have picked up so many points.
My use of bristles and what I always called shoemaker’s wax (Al, DW plus most of the US fraternity call it Coad. I don’t know why - but I am sure somebody will tell me) goes back to the 1950’s. However, I am no purist. I tend to use or do, whatever gets results, rather than always sticking to the “traditional” techniques. To be fair, again and again I have tried different techniques, only to go back to, or sometimes blend them with, the traditional.
So to my point. In many countries including the USA and England, but I am sure many more, you can buy shoemaker’s wax as used for making a thread to sew welts or to sew (stitch, if you prefer) outsoles to the welt. The English brand is Thermowax, made by F. Ball & Co of Leek in Staffordshire. This is sold in small packets wrapped in grease-proof paper and is regularly stocked by most shoe repair suppliers. This does the job very well and I am sure if Duncan or Jonathon would like a sample, then I would be happy to ask the suppliers if this can be arranged, by airmail if necessary.
I have no objection to shoemakers producing their own wax but there is so much to learn in this business that I feel you have to draw a line somewhere. If you are not careful, you will be rearing your own cow, slaughtering it, tanning the hide and then you will have to cut down a suitable tree to carve a last out of the timber. Then as I said, I am no purist.
A final point, I have no financial or business connection with F. Ball & Co beyond that of being a customer but I am happy to ask for a favour for a friend/s in Oz.
Frank Jones
frank.jones@shoemaking.com
My use of bristles and what I always called shoemaker’s wax (Al, DW plus most of the US fraternity call it Coad. I don’t know why - but I am sure somebody will tell me) goes back to the 1950’s. However, I am no purist. I tend to use or do, whatever gets results, rather than always sticking to the “traditional” techniques. To be fair, again and again I have tried different techniques, only to go back to, or sometimes blend them with, the traditional.
So to my point. In many countries including the USA and England, but I am sure many more, you can buy shoemaker’s wax as used for making a thread to sew welts or to sew (stitch, if you prefer) outsoles to the welt. The English brand is Thermowax, made by F. Ball & Co of Leek in Staffordshire. This is sold in small packets wrapped in grease-proof paper and is regularly stocked by most shoe repair suppliers. This does the job very well and I am sure if Duncan or Jonathon would like a sample, then I would be happy to ask the suppliers if this can be arranged, by airmail if necessary.
I have no objection to shoemakers producing their own wax but there is so much to learn in this business that I feel you have to draw a line somewhere. If you are not careful, you will be rearing your own cow, slaughtering it, tanning the hide and then you will have to cut down a suitable tree to carve a last out of the timber. Then as I said, I am no purist.
A final point, I have no financial or business connection with F. Ball & Co beyond that of being a customer but I am happy to ask for a favour for a friend/s in Oz.
Frank Jones
frank.jones@shoemaking.com
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marc
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Re: Thread
Duncan, you might just, for a lark, try taking the black doughy stuff, drag some thread through it, and try stitching with that as an experiment. You may already have some shoemaker's wax there (or, you may just have an old rubber eraser that got left behind ).
Frank, I suspect that both the "making your own" and the use of the term "coad"/"code" may have to do with different focus that Al and I have. Code is a Middle English term for shoemaker's wax (I tend to use it both because I am refering to the material in a medieval context, and because it drives me nuts that "shoemaker's wax" has no "wax" in it; just colophony and pitch). Al uses it, I suspect, because it's a cool new shoemaking word (and helps him remember what I'm talking about when I use it). I don't know why anyone else uses it, but I'm not going to tell them not to - heck it's a cool old shoemaking term that's fallen out of use, and may be having a resurgence after 500 years (at least it's being used correctly, and people know what's being referred to).
Marc
). Frank, I suspect that both the "making your own" and the use of the term "coad"/"code" may have to do with different focus that Al and I have. Code is a Middle English term for shoemaker's wax (I tend to use it both because I am refering to the material in a medieval context, and because it drives me nuts that "shoemaker's wax" has no "wax" in it; just colophony and pitch). Al uses it, I suspect, because it's a cool new shoemaking word (and helps him remember what I'm talking about when I use it). I don't know why anyone else uses it, but I'm not going to tell them not to - heck it's a cool old shoemaking term that's fallen out of use, and may be having a resurgence after 500 years (at least it's being used correctly, and people know what's being referred to).
Marc
-
D.A. Saguto--HCC
Re: Thread
Gang,
Just for the record, and for clarification, Marc's correct on "coad". I had never heard of, or used the word before he dredged it up a while back. To me the sticky pitch-rosin-stuff that goes on thread is/was/ever will be "shoemakers' wax", and so it is with all the "dead guys". I think the only place I've ever used the word "coad" is on the Forum, and then just to play along. Interesting[?] aside, the term "hand-wax" is also used, to differentiate this stuff from "machine-wax" after the 1870s-80s, when special formulations were devised, using heated wax to wax the threads in various stitching machines, etc. So it follows, we have "coad", Middle-English; "shoemakers' wax", Post-Medieval; then "hand-wax", post c. 1870/80--all for the same [more or less] stuff, i.e., the rosin-pitch-etc. glop for waxing thread for hand-sewing.
Frank,
Please modify your impression--"coad" ain't current, not even on the "wrong side" of the big pond. We're just having fun with a newly re-discovered old English word. One could conceivably have "cere your lingles with coad Sirrah...", or "wax your waxed-ends with shoemakers' wax sir..."
Marc,
What's the date-range for the word "coad"--when it was current usage--according to OED, or whatever?
Just for the record, and for clarification, Marc's correct on "coad". I had never heard of, or used the word before he dredged it up a while back. To me the sticky pitch-rosin-stuff that goes on thread is/was/ever will be "shoemakers' wax", and so it is with all the "dead guys". I think the only place I've ever used the word "coad" is on the Forum, and then just to play along. Interesting[?] aside, the term "hand-wax" is also used, to differentiate this stuff from "machine-wax" after the 1870s-80s, when special formulations were devised, using heated wax to wax the threads in various stitching machines, etc. So it follows, we have "coad", Middle-English; "shoemakers' wax", Post-Medieval; then "hand-wax", post c. 1870/80--all for the same [more or less] stuff, i.e., the rosin-pitch-etc. glop for waxing thread for hand-sewing.
Frank,
Please modify your impression--"coad" ain't current, not even on the "wrong side" of the big pond. We're just having fun with a newly re-discovered old English word. One could conceivably have "cere your lingles with coad Sirrah...", or "wax your waxed-ends with shoemakers' wax sir..."
Marc,
What's the date-range for the word "coad"--when it was current usage--according to OED, or whatever?
-
Jonathon Head
Re: Thread
Frank, Thanks for your kind thoughts.
Like Duncan I have always used bees wax to wax my threads for welt sewing. Simply because that is what I was taught to use,and I can say without hesitation I have never had a problem with it.
To each their own I suppose.Im unsure though on what the differences are between bees wax and shoemakers wax. What advantages does shoemakers wax bring to the craftsman? Maybe I'm missing the train with this one.
I'll check with my finders here Frank, but don't disappear,I may take you up on that offer.
PS I'll be seeing Genie soon, I'll tell her you said G'day.
Cheers.
Jon
Like Duncan I have always used bees wax to wax my threads for welt sewing. Simply because that is what I was taught to use,and I can say without hesitation I have never had a problem with it.
To each their own I suppose.Im unsure though on what the differences are between bees wax and shoemakers wax. What advantages does shoemakers wax bring to the craftsman? Maybe I'm missing the train with this one.
I'll check with my finders here Frank, but don't disappear,I may take you up on that offer.
PS I'll be seeing Genie soon, I'll tell her you said G'day.
Cheers.
Jon
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Joe Toth
Re: Thread
Jonathon, The Am. Civil War is my main intrest,and where I do most of my reproduction. The military regulation 1860 state that cord is to be rosined and waxed, used in bag assembly. This is the way I was taught and use it weather for bag or shoe construction. The rosin from local findings companys; shoemaker wax, summer wax, or hand wax, I have heard all three, was applied to secure the cord in place, and bee's wax is applied over to act as a lubercant to make the cord easyer to pull through.
Joe
Joe
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marc
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Re: Thread
Al:
"Code, n.2. "Pitch, cobbler's wax. 1358 Ord. in Riley Lond. Mem. (1868) 301 Code, rosin, or other manner of refuse [litour]. c1440 WYCLIF Ex. ii. 3 (MS. Bodl. 277) Sche took a segge leep, and clemede it with coode [1382 glewishe cley, 1388 tar]. c1440 Promp. Parv. 85 Code, sowters wex [H.P. coode]. c1485 Digby Myst. (1882) II. 103 Be-paynted with sowters code. Also coode."
I'll need to check the MED to see if I can track back down where the spelling "coade" comes in.
By the way, just for information, "handwax", which I'm going to accept, barring any other evidence, Al's description of its use, doesn't appear in Johnson's dictionary (1755), Websters (1828), OED (at all) nor the OAD. - So a post 1870's origin, limited usage (as in just in the trade) is entirely plausible.
Marc
What's the date-range for the word "coad"--when it was current usage--according to
OED, or whatever?
"Code, n.2. "Pitch, cobbler's wax. 1358 Ord. in Riley Lond. Mem. (1868) 301 Code, rosin, or other manner of refuse [litour]. c1440 WYCLIF Ex. ii. 3 (MS. Bodl. 277) Sche took a segge leep, and clemede it with coode [1382 glewishe cley, 1388 tar]. c1440 Promp. Parv. 85 Code, sowters wex [H.P. coode]. c1485 Digby Myst. (1882) II. 103 Be-paynted with sowters code. Also coode."
I'll need to check the MED to see if I can track back down where the spelling "coade" comes in.
By the way, just for information, "handwax", which I'm going to accept, barring any other evidence, Al's description of its use, doesn't appear in Johnson's dictionary (1755), Websters (1828), OED (at all) nor the OAD. - So a post 1870's origin, limited usage (as in just in the trade) is entirely plausible.
Marc
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fjones
Re: Thread
Al and Marc
Al first - For me if we (as in shoemakers collectively) have been using the term “shoemaker’s wax” or similar for three hundred years or so, then that seems a good reason to go on using it, rather than dredging up a term from the 1300’s such as “code”, or is it “coade”. There does not even seem to be any agreement on the spelling. It is interesting that you say “wax your waxed-ends with shoemakers' wax sir...". This would become “code your coded-ends with code sir ...” For me it does not have the correct ring.
Marc - Sorry but I beg to differ with your “doesn't appear in [ ] OED (at all)”. I do not have the many volume OED and just now I cannot find the CD I have somewhere, but I do regularly use the Concise Oxford Dictionary - seventh edition 1982. On page 178 there is a subsidiary entry under the main heading “cobbler” which reads “cobbler’s wax - resinous substance used for waxing thread [M.E. of unkn. orig.]”.
Sorry but to use a cricket phrase for me that is coade “clean bowled”.
Just a brief “appeal” to my Oz friends. I am expecting a little moral support here from you more recent members of the British Empire. We must stick up for the old country against these up-start destroyers of tea in Boston Habour.
Yee gads sir, how can you even suggest you speak the Queen’s English when you don’t even play cricket!!
Frank Jones
frank.jones@shoemaking.com
Al first - For me if we (as in shoemakers collectively) have been using the term “shoemaker’s wax” or similar for three hundred years or so, then that seems a good reason to go on using it, rather than dredging up a term from the 1300’s such as “code”, or is it “coade”. There does not even seem to be any agreement on the spelling. It is interesting that you say “wax your waxed-ends with shoemakers' wax sir...". This would become “code your coded-ends with code sir ...” For me it does not have the correct ring.
Marc - Sorry but I beg to differ with your “doesn't appear in [ ] OED (at all)”. I do not have the many volume OED and just now I cannot find the CD I have somewhere, but I do regularly use the Concise Oxford Dictionary - seventh edition 1982. On page 178 there is a subsidiary entry under the main heading “cobbler” which reads “cobbler’s wax - resinous substance used for waxing thread [M.E. of unkn. orig.]”.
Sorry but to use a cricket phrase for me that is coade “clean bowled”.
Just a brief “appeal” to my Oz friends. I am expecting a little moral support here from you more recent members of the British Empire. We must stick up for the old country against these up-start destroyers of tea in Boston Habour.
Yee gads sir, how can you even suggest you speak the Queen’s English when you don’t even play cricket!!
Frank Jones
frank.jones@shoemaking.com
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rosynay
Re: Thread
Frank:
I can trace my English lineage back to the 10th Century or a little longer if
my memory serves me correctly. Wonder
if any of my ancestors were in the trade? Wonder if that makes us cousins?
All Others:
These notices on wax, coad, code, ect.
are interesting and informative to a
novice like me. I have looked on this
site and just where do I order this
product?
RL
In Texas
I can trace my English lineage back to the 10th Century or a little longer if
my memory serves me correctly. Wonder
if any of my ancestors were in the trade? Wonder if that makes us cousins?
All Others:
These notices on wax, coad, code, ect.
are interesting and informative to a
novice like me. I have looked on this
site and just where do I order this
product?
RL
In Texas
-
marc
- 5
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- Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2008 10:00 am
- Full Name: Marc Carlson
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- Contact:
Re: Thread
Frank,
I was referring to the word "handwax", when I said 'it doesn't appear in the OED'. The concept must appear in the dictionary, or else we wouldn't be talking about "code".
As for it's spelling, no there is no agreement on its spelling, nor should there be. There was no agreement on its spelling when it was first used either.
As for whether it should be used today or not, it doesn't really matter to me. It certainly wasn't dredged up for reintroduction. I use it because deal with medieval shoes, and am trying to share with other people who study medieval shoes, and anyone else who might be interested. As I said, it also drives me nuts that there's no *wax* in "shoemaker's wax", and so describing "waxed threads" can be confusing and misleading -- especially when dealing with archaeological materials. It's been my experience that most non-shoemaking people see the term "waxed thread" and tend to assume "beeswaxed thread", when this may not be the case. So while there may be no use for the term to you (and that's fine), OTOH, I do see a use for it from this other perspective.
Since I don't believe there's been any push to force anyone to actually -use- the term, if you don't like it, you shouldn't feel any reason to use it. If you want to start fighting to come up with a single, unified jargon, just tell me and I'll happily stand aside and take notes.
To "cere" one's thread, btw, is a perfectly reasonable term for waxing your thread. True, the OED stops listing it after the 1686 "tr. Chardin's Trav. 154 A little Searing Candle" (again, no consistancy in spelling), however, I was taught the term long ago when I learned handsewing.
Marc
I was referring to the word "handwax", when I said 'it doesn't appear in the OED'. The concept must appear in the dictionary, or else we wouldn't be talking about "code".
As for it's spelling, no there is no agreement on its spelling, nor should there be. There was no agreement on its spelling when it was first used either.
As for whether it should be used today or not, it doesn't really matter to me. It certainly wasn't dredged up for reintroduction. I use it because deal with medieval shoes, and am trying to share with other people who study medieval shoes, and anyone else who might be interested. As I said, it also drives me nuts that there's no *wax* in "shoemaker's wax", and so describing "waxed threads" can be confusing and misleading -- especially when dealing with archaeological materials. It's been my experience that most non-shoemaking people see the term "waxed thread" and tend to assume "beeswaxed thread", when this may not be the case. So while there may be no use for the term to you (and that's fine), OTOH, I do see a use for it from this other perspective.
Since I don't believe there's been any push to force anyone to actually -use- the term, if you don't like it, you shouldn't feel any reason to use it. If you want to start fighting to come up with a single, unified jargon, just tell me and I'll happily stand aside and take notes.
To "cere" one's thread, btw, is a perfectly reasonable term for waxing your thread. True, the OED stops listing it after the 1686 "tr. Chardin's Trav. 154 A little Searing Candle" (again, no consistancy in spelling), however, I was taught the term long ago when I learned handsewing.
Marc
-
D.A. Saguto--HCC
Re: Thread
Jonathon,
---------------------------------
"What advantages does shoemakers wax bring to the craftsman?"
--------------------------------
Let's see, to put it into brief bulleted-thoughts: it adheres the taw of the thread to the bristle--beeswax does not; it sticks the individual strands of the thread together better than beeswax; it impregnates the thread, shielding it from water penetration, and rot; there is a possible anti-bacterial action via the pine pitch, which may also protect the thread from rot, etc.--beeswax is rather fugitive, and "disappears" over time leaving the thread [more] exposed; an imperceptible amount melts-off into the surrounding leather via the heat/friction of pulling it through each hole, resulting in a firmer seam; the sticky nature of it allows each stitch to be drawn tight, and "glued" in place--beeswax allows each stitch to slip back, or "relax", creating a looser seam, and finally, assuming the "dead guys" [a goofy moniker I use for the historical record of shoemaking texts, ephemera, etc.] knew as much if not more than we do about how to make a good shoe or boot, from about 1600 at least, it is the only type of waxy-glop ever used to wax shoe threads. It was even specified by law that it was to be "well rosined" [sufficient rosin incorporated] in the 17th c. Historically-speaking, I have found zero references to using beeswax on shoemakers' thread for sewing, between c.1600 and the later 20th c., with one specialized exception--a beeswax and rosin mix used to wax white thread so as not to obscure its color.
---------------------------------
"What advantages does shoemakers wax bring to the craftsman?"
--------------------------------
Let's see, to put it into brief bulleted-thoughts: it adheres the taw of the thread to the bristle--beeswax does not; it sticks the individual strands of the thread together better than beeswax; it impregnates the thread, shielding it from water penetration, and rot; there is a possible anti-bacterial action via the pine pitch, which may also protect the thread from rot, etc.--beeswax is rather fugitive, and "disappears" over time leaving the thread [more] exposed; an imperceptible amount melts-off into the surrounding leather via the heat/friction of pulling it through each hole, resulting in a firmer seam; the sticky nature of it allows each stitch to be drawn tight, and "glued" in place--beeswax allows each stitch to slip back, or "relax", creating a looser seam, and finally, assuming the "dead guys" [a goofy moniker I use for the historical record of shoemaking texts, ephemera, etc.] knew as much if not more than we do about how to make a good shoe or boot, from about 1600 at least, it is the only type of waxy-glop ever used to wax shoe threads. It was even specified by law that it was to be "well rosined" [sufficient rosin incorporated] in the 17th c. Historically-speaking, I have found zero references to using beeswax on shoemakers' thread for sewing, between c.1600 and the later 20th c., with one specialized exception--a beeswax and rosin mix used to wax white thread so as not to obscure its color.
-
D.A. Saguto--HCC
Re: Thread
Frank,
I think what you, and everybody else, is observing here is merely some additions to our vocabulary as a result of historical research. Like I said yesterday, personally I'm glad to know that "coad" [I like that spelling because it distinguishes it from code"...like secret code. And who was it that said, "it's a boring chap who can only spell a word one way..."?]. In all events, like you, I'm a fan of "shoemakers' wax" myself, for modern conversation, etc., but am glad to know about "coad" too. Words are fun.
The phrase I offered for example: "cere your lingles with coad Sirrah", would have all been quite acceptible Early-Modern English a *long* time ago in your country. As Marc has pointed-out, "cere" means to smear with wax; "lingle"=a waxed-end, or made-up thread, waxed, with its bristles on, and of course "coad"=shoemakers' wax ("Sirrah", BTW is just a little Elizabethan twist on "Sir".
I think what you, and everybody else, is observing here is merely some additions to our vocabulary as a result of historical research. Like I said yesterday, personally I'm glad to know that "coad" [I like that spelling because it distinguishes it from code"...like secret code. And who was it that said, "it's a boring chap who can only spell a word one way..."?]. In all events, like you, I'm a fan of "shoemakers' wax" myself, for modern conversation, etc., but am glad to know about "coad" too. Words are fun.
The phrase I offered for example: "cere your lingles with coad Sirrah", would have all been quite acceptible Early-Modern English a *long* time ago in your country. As Marc has pointed-out, "cere" means to smear with wax; "lingle"=a waxed-end, or made-up thread, waxed, with its bristles on, and of course "coad"=shoemakers' wax ("Sirrah", BTW is just a little Elizabethan twist on "Sir"
.-
D.A. Saguto--HCC
Re: Thread
Marc & Frank,
On the term "hand-wax": as I explaned, I doubt if it pre-dates "machine-wax" [BTW, not "masheen" wax, which is another item], and was only used within the trade, after wax-thread stitchers were introduced, to distinguish the two types--one for hand sewing, the other for the heated wax pots on stitchers. And so it follows, the term has been current in my lifetime in the US--Peterkin's too--mostly among 'makers and suppliers of shoe stuff. I don't recall seeing it in print, except maybe in a price list, catalogue, or what have you. But, now we know it's out there, and what it means. Since "hot wax" has been used for the rosin-based thread-wax used in stitchers, and "cold wax" for the rosin-based thick liquid wax often used as a substitute, "hand-wax" naturally is left over to describe the wax for hand-sewing. Though, in agreement with Frank, amongst the "in" crowd, I think "shoemakers' wax" should be the preference.
On the term "hand-wax": as I explaned, I doubt if it pre-dates "machine-wax" [BTW, not "masheen" wax, which is another item], and was only used within the trade, after wax-thread stitchers were introduced, to distinguish the two types--one for hand sewing, the other for the heated wax pots on stitchers. And so it follows, the term has been current in my lifetime in the US--Peterkin's too--mostly among 'makers and suppliers of shoe stuff. I don't recall seeing it in print, except maybe in a price list, catalogue, or what have you. But, now we know it's out there, and what it means. Since "hot wax" has been used for the rosin-based thread-wax used in stitchers, and "cold wax" for the rosin-based thick liquid wax often used as a substitute, "hand-wax" naturally is left over to describe the wax for hand-sewing. Though, in agreement with Frank, amongst the "in" crowd, I think "shoemakers' wax" should be the preference.
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Jonathon Head
Re: Thread
To All.
Great to see your reply's (feel free to keep them coming by the way ) I've always thought my welt stitches were pretty tight but maybe I can make them tighter still. I was taught to use a welt awl with a long handle with a bulbous end. Once the thread is pulled through it is wound around the handle several times and then pulled taught.This method gives marvelous leverage. Is this type of welt awl common place in other parts of the world?
Great to see your reply's (feel free to keep them coming by the way ) I've always thought my welt stitches were pretty tight but maybe I can make them tighter still. I was taught to use a welt awl with a long handle with a bulbous end. Once the thread is pulled through it is wound around the handle several times and then pulled taught.This method gives marvelous leverage. Is this type of welt awl common place in other parts of the world?
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D.A. Saguto--HCC
Re: Thread
Jonathon,
Not to put too fine a point on it, but the tightness here is not so much how hard you pull your thread initially--pull it too hard and it'll cut right through the leather, or break. The tightness I refer to is how tight each stitch remains after pulling-in, then moving on to pierce the next hole for the next stitch, etc. Beeswax is a typically used in shoemaking as a lubricant, not an adhesive like shoemakers' wax. It helps the threads slide. Naturally after you pull your stitch in tight, then release the tension, that stitch can "relax" and some of that tension will be lost if beeswax alone is used. With the shoemakers' wax, it's stuck fast--no backing off.
From what I gathered from your description of the awl haft, it sounds like the "typical" shoemakers' awl haft shape, with the button on the end to act as a capstan for winding the thread when pulling-in. With minor variations, and proportional differences, this seems to have been the basic European shoemakers' shape all along, since the Romans, perhaps with a brief hiatus in the Middle Ages when double-ended awls were used. The awl is in the right hand. The left hand wears the "hand-leather" to wind that thread around for pulling-in. Between the awl-cum-capstan on the right, and the hand-leather-cum-capstan on the left, you should be able to pull-in any/all stitches "too" tightly. Basically, you want the ability to pull-in "too" tightly, so then it's just a matter of adjusting the amount of elbow grease you apply to each stitch--you maintain control over the tools and materials. If you are prevented from pulling-in tightly "enough", because the left hand is unprotected, or the right hand/awl-side has no capstan for winding the thread, you'll never get a tight "enough" seam in shoemaking.
Not to put too fine a point on it, but the tightness here is not so much how hard you pull your thread initially--pull it too hard and it'll cut right through the leather, or break. The tightness I refer to is how tight each stitch remains after pulling-in, then moving on to pierce the next hole for the next stitch, etc. Beeswax is a typically used in shoemaking as a lubricant, not an adhesive like shoemakers' wax. It helps the threads slide. Naturally after you pull your stitch in tight, then release the tension, that stitch can "relax" and some of that tension will be lost if beeswax alone is used. With the shoemakers' wax, it's stuck fast--no backing off.
From what I gathered from your description of the awl haft, it sounds like the "typical" shoemakers' awl haft shape, with the button on the end to act as a capstan for winding the thread when pulling-in. With minor variations, and proportional differences, this seems to have been the basic European shoemakers' shape all along, since the Romans, perhaps with a brief hiatus in the Middle Ages when double-ended awls were used. The awl is in the right hand. The left hand wears the "hand-leather" to wind that thread around for pulling-in. Between the awl-cum-capstan on the right, and the hand-leather-cum-capstan on the left, you should be able to pull-in any/all stitches "too" tightly. Basically, you want the ability to pull-in "too" tightly, so then it's just a matter of adjusting the amount of elbow grease you apply to each stitch--you maintain control over the tools and materials. If you are prevented from pulling-in tightly "enough", because the left hand is unprotected, or the right hand/awl-side has no capstan for winding the thread, you'll never get a tight "enough" seam in shoemaking.
-
fjones
Re: Thread
Rosemary
I would be honoured if you regard me as a cousin. Certainly there is an enormous sense of fraternity amongst people who know a little about what the old books call “the gentle craft”.
Straying outside what was strictly addressed to me, it is certainly possible to buy “shoemaker’s wax” in the US. I don’t know enough detail about the various sources but perhaps Al Saguto could suggest a name or likely supplier.
Like nearly all source questions, the starting point is your local shoe repair suppliers. In the US I have only heard them called “finders” but as you might expect ‘on this side of the pond’ we have a more obscure term. We call them “leather and grindery merchants”. Although in the last 30 years they actually sell less and less leather and grindery (the old English term for nails and tacks, but also sometimes used for any metal part of a shoe - such as a shank).
Frank Jones
frank.jones@shoemaking.com
I would be honoured if you regard me as a cousin. Certainly there is an enormous sense of fraternity amongst people who know a little about what the old books call “the gentle craft”.
Straying outside what was strictly addressed to me, it is certainly possible to buy “shoemaker’s wax” in the US. I don’t know enough detail about the various sources but perhaps Al Saguto could suggest a name or likely supplier.
Like nearly all source questions, the starting point is your local shoe repair suppliers. In the US I have only heard them called “finders” but as you might expect ‘on this side of the pond’ we have a more obscure term. We call them “leather and grindery merchants”. Although in the last 30 years they actually sell less and less leather and grindery (the old English term for nails and tacks, but also sometimes used for any metal part of a shoe - such as a shank).
Frank Jones
frank.jones@shoemaking.com
-
dw
- Seanchaidh
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Re: Thread
Duncan, Jonathon,
For those less fortunate folks in far off lands, who cannot buy shoemaker's wax, why not try making your own?
I have a recipe that I got from Al Saguto many years ago that purportedly is of great antiquity but regardless is very usable and easy to make.
It requires pine pitch, pine rosin and beeswax--thus it *is* truly a form of wax. I make my own hand wax from equal parts of rosin and pitch combined with roughly one third to one half part of natural beeswax and a very little amount of cod liver oil.
The rosin and pitch are heated over a medium flame until both are melted. Do not allow the heat to become so intense that the mixture begins to smoke. Stir often. I add about one third part natural beeswax at this point. When the beeswax has been added to the hot mixture, and been stirred into the whole, we are ready for the tricky part. Pour the molten wax into a basin of cold water. If this is done all in one motion, the mixture will remain coherent--that is, it will stay in a single lump. The basin of water must be deep enough to allow you to get your hands under the hot wax as it hangs in the water. The cold water will form a skin on the wax and if you are very careful, you can gather the wax together into a ball. Some molten wax will erupt from the ball, and this is as it should be. I like to try to squeeze most of the wax into contact with the cold water. Caution! This stuff is HOT and VERY sticky. If you get hot wax on your skin, you may get a bad burn.
When the greater part of the wax is no longer molten yet still VERY warm, lift it from the water. Begin kneading the wax--"taffy pulling" it. Again, this must be done while the wax is still very warm. Work the wax in this fashion until it cools. When done, the wax should be a bronze color. If the wax begins to break or shatter as you pull it, chances are that there is not enough beeswax or oil added. Simply go back to the fire and reheat the wax adding additional softening agent. Once the wax has been kneaded, it should be put aside to completely cool and 'set.' This usually takes about a day.
Pine pitch, which is steamed from the old roots of pine trees, contains a fractional percent of naturally occurring turpentine. Rausch Naval Yards in New Orleans (504.833.3754) still makes three grades--a hard (1811) which is 1% naturally occurring turpentine, medium (1511) 1.8% turp, and soft (1211) which is soft enough to dent with your fingernail but which doesn't flow, with 2.2% turp.
Pine Rosin, on the other hand, is obtained by "bleeding" a tree. The sap is collected and then put through a fractional distillation process in which first, water is boiled off, then turpentine, then pine oil, and what is left in the kettle is pure pine rosin.
Rausch sells both products--pine pitch and pine rosin for $4.00 a pound with a minimum of 12 pounds cash up front. And a three week delivery time. BTW, if you have a ship building Trade in Australia--especially one that is geared toward sailing ships--I would bet that if you ask around you'll soon find someone who makes (or carries) pitch and rosin. That's Rausch's main buisiness.
And, at a bit of a tangent--just to put in my 2 cents worth, I *like* words such as "coad" and "snab" and even "cordwainer." I like them because: 1) As Al points out, they're fun; and 2) because they remind us of our proud and long heritage--remind us that what we do is unique and that, ultimately we're not just refugees from a largely discredited and now mostly off shore "smokestack" industry.
In fact, I'd almost rather use "coad" than "shoemaker's wax" especially when I talking to folks who are in the Trade. And considering all the different waxes that a shoemaker might use...I almost prefer "hand wax" to "shoemaker's wax." In both instances, in my opinion, the terms convey my meaning more concisely...but then the listener has a great deal to do with it, too. I might not use any of those terms, with any confidence, if I was talking to someone who didn't know the first thing about shoemaking.
Tight Stitches...
DWFII--Member HCC
For those less fortunate folks in far off lands, who cannot buy shoemaker's wax, why not try making your own?
I have a recipe that I got from Al Saguto many years ago that purportedly is of great antiquity but regardless is very usable and easy to make.
It requires pine pitch, pine rosin and beeswax--thus it *is* truly a form of wax. I make my own hand wax from equal parts of rosin and pitch combined with roughly one third to one half part of natural beeswax and a very little amount of cod liver oil.
The rosin and pitch are heated over a medium flame until both are melted. Do not allow the heat to become so intense that the mixture begins to smoke. Stir often. I add about one third part natural beeswax at this point. When the beeswax has been added to the hot mixture, and been stirred into the whole, we are ready for the tricky part. Pour the molten wax into a basin of cold water. If this is done all in one motion, the mixture will remain coherent--that is, it will stay in a single lump. The basin of water must be deep enough to allow you to get your hands under the hot wax as it hangs in the water. The cold water will form a skin on the wax and if you are very careful, you can gather the wax together into a ball. Some molten wax will erupt from the ball, and this is as it should be. I like to try to squeeze most of the wax into contact with the cold water. Caution! This stuff is HOT and VERY sticky. If you get hot wax on your skin, you may get a bad burn.
When the greater part of the wax is no longer molten yet still VERY warm, lift it from the water. Begin kneading the wax--"taffy pulling" it. Again, this must be done while the wax is still very warm. Work the wax in this fashion until it cools. When done, the wax should be a bronze color. If the wax begins to break or shatter as you pull it, chances are that there is not enough beeswax or oil added. Simply go back to the fire and reheat the wax adding additional softening agent. Once the wax has been kneaded, it should be put aside to completely cool and 'set.' This usually takes about a day.
Pine pitch, which is steamed from the old roots of pine trees, contains a fractional percent of naturally occurring turpentine. Rausch Naval Yards in New Orleans (504.833.3754) still makes three grades--a hard (1811) which is 1% naturally occurring turpentine, medium (1511) 1.8% turp, and soft (1211) which is soft enough to dent with your fingernail but which doesn't flow, with 2.2% turp.
Pine Rosin, on the other hand, is obtained by "bleeding" a tree. The sap is collected and then put through a fractional distillation process in which first, water is boiled off, then turpentine, then pine oil, and what is left in the kettle is pure pine rosin.
Rausch sells both products--pine pitch and pine rosin for $4.00 a pound with a minimum of 12 pounds cash up front. And a three week delivery time. BTW, if you have a ship building Trade in Australia--especially one that is geared toward sailing ships--I would bet that if you ask around you'll soon find someone who makes (or carries) pitch and rosin. That's Rausch's main buisiness.
And, at a bit of a tangent--just to put in my 2 cents worth, I *like* words such as "coad" and "snab" and even "cordwainer." I like them because: 1) As Al points out, they're fun; and 2) because they remind us of our proud and long heritage--remind us that what we do is unique and that, ultimately we're not just refugees from a largely discredited and now mostly off shore "smokestack" industry.
In fact, I'd almost rather use "coad" than "shoemaker's wax" especially when I talking to folks who are in the Trade. And considering all the different waxes that a shoemaker might use...I almost prefer "hand wax" to "shoemaker's wax." In both instances, in my opinion, the terms convey my meaning more concisely...but then the listener has a great deal to do with it, too. I might not use any of those terms, with any confidence, if I was talking to someone who didn't know the first thing about shoemaking.
Tight Stitches...
DWFII--Member HCC
-
rosynay
Re: Thread
DW
On the recipe for shoemakers wax I presume this is the formula you use
now for your hand sewing. Which pitch
do you prefer, hard, medium or soft and
why?
Thanks!
Rosemary
On the recipe for shoemakers wax I presume this is the formula you use
now for your hand sewing. Which pitch
do you prefer, hard, medium or soft and
why?
Thanks!
Rosemary
-
dw
- Seanchaidh
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- Contact:
Re: Thread
Rosemary,
This is the formula that I have used in the past and which I will go back to when I run out of my beloved "VestaPech." VestaPech was a good handwax manufactured in East Germany (from what I understand) and which went out of business with the fall of the iron curtain.
Jared Holt (here in the states) also makes a handwax that is probably the same recipe, with oil instead of beeswax (probably an even older version)--it's very brittle, and gets moreso as it ages because the oil is so fugitive...it evaporates out of the wax, off the threads, etc. Which, to come back around, is why I prefer this recipe with beeswax.
As to the pitch...I don't know. I bought 12 lbs. about 15 years ago. I'm still working on it. I think it was the medium...it's not the soft...but I just can't remember. Al gets some Swedish burgundy pitch from somewhere, so maybe he would have some insights in that regard.
Tight Stitches...
DWFII--Member HCC
This is the formula that I have used in the past and which I will go back to when I run out of my beloved "VestaPech." VestaPech was a good handwax manufactured in East Germany (from what I understand) and which went out of business with the fall of the iron curtain.
Jared Holt (here in the states) also makes a handwax that is probably the same recipe, with oil instead of beeswax (probably an even older version)--it's very brittle, and gets moreso as it ages because the oil is so fugitive...it evaporates out of the wax, off the threads, etc. Which, to come back around, is why I prefer this recipe with beeswax.
As to the pitch...I don't know. I bought 12 lbs. about 15 years ago. I'm still working on it. I think it was the medium...it's not the soft...but I just can't remember. Al gets some Swedish burgundy pitch from somewhere, so maybe he would have some insights in that regard.
Tight Stitches...
DWFII--Member HCC