The Crispin Colloquy

I've been trying to get hold of the chap at Liverpool Oil and Grease http://www.livergrease.co.uk who list burgundy pitch on their website, but I haven't managed to make contact via phone yet due to the 13 hour time differences between here and liverpool.

Al,

I noticed on the Liverpool Oil and Grease page a listing for caulking pitches. Don't you think that that might have been the primary use of the pitches that Rausch Naval Yards was selling? Seems to me the owner told me that once upon a time. So...two questions...would a caulking pitch be equivalent to the Rausch product and suitable for making hand wax?

And...I see a white caulking pitch...I wonder if that could be used to make a "summer" wax?

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

They list a burgundy pitch among their products, which is what made me think of them. I'm heading out on holiday tomorrow but I'll try getting in touch with them again once I'm back on the 19th.

I have no real experience with period naval uses of pitch, but I would think that a caulking pitch would be the stuff that is used to make oakum to ram into the gaps between planks on wooden ships. I think it is also used on ropes and canvas, but I may well be utterly wrong about that.

If they only sell in large bulk quantities, I'll try and get samples of the various types they sell and see which ones might work well if there was interest in a bulk order.

DW, I think the post you refer to that talks about burgundy pitch must have made it to the archive CDs, I reread this thread and couldn't find it.

DW,

I'm sure I made the distinction between "winter" and "summer" wax, yup, but that only regarded the softness of the finished stuff (pitch and rosin) via the oil/fat added--more in the winter so it's not too brittle.

The blonde Vesta Pech is a whole other animal than "winter"/summer" wax. And probably a whole nuther animal than 18thc. "white wax". IOW, color doesn't equate with seasonality, but rather its application.

Having used the black Vasta Pech, my guess it that it's coal-tar based, rather than pine-pitch, but who knows for sure?

Alasdair,

You are right, pitch was used to make oakum and not vice versa. But it exists in several "pure" forms graded mostly by hardness. I talked extensively to the boss there at Rausch years ago...have my notes tucked away safe where even I can't find them...and if I recall his conversation correctly the hardness is related to the amount of residual kerosene(?). But I suspect, from everything I have read and my conversations with Rausch that caulking pitch would have been identical with shoemakers pitch.

I've even heard of folks going down to the shipyards to get pitch.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

Al,

Well, I don't smell coal tar in Vesta Pech. I know that you do but it's not there for me. Mike Ives was in the construction business (as a sideline ) and he used hot pitch roofing tar for a hand wax (straight from a big old cardboard tub). It smeeled like coal tar and I had it in my nostrils when I came back from learning with him.

I once asked Ralph Burkhardt, who worked for Goetz, to ask the people at the Vesta Pech plant if coal tar was used (I think after sending you some). Ralph came back with a "no." I know that doesn't guarantee anything but...maybe I just don't want to believe it...I can't smell coal tar.

That said coal tar isn't nearly as problematic with dacron as it is with linen.

With regard to white caulking pitch and white Vesta Pech, doesn't that sort of eliminate coal tar based pitch?

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

OK, I just tried, yet again, to make a coad blend using pine tar and beeswax, heating to nearly boiling and taffy pulling. The first time I tried, I ruined Penny's great-grandmother's measuring cup and ended up with a brittle not-soft-at-all batch that I almost couldn't get out of the cup. In fact, I think most of that batch is still IN Penny's great-grandmother's measuring cup. THAT was good for a few nights on the couch!

I just tried again, using one of those plastic cooking bags that are supposed to withstand boing water. I used slightly more beeswax than tar, based on one of my last attempts. What I ended up with is a lot of tar crumbs mixed in with beeswax. I don't know if any of the tar penetrated into the wax or not. I am using it, as crumbly as the tar bits are.

Is it possible for postings with complete instructions and ingredients? A critique wouldn't be amiss, either.
Thank you,

Bruce

Bruce,

For what it's worth you can see the process I use to make code using rosin and beeswax at http://wherearetheelves.blogspot.com/2007/06/making-code.html

Rubbing alcohol should dissolve pine tar and boiling water should shift beeswax, so the measuring cup might not be a lost cause after all. If the rubbing alcohol doesn't work, try WD-40. Seriously; it'll shift most things and it's the only way I've found of really getting the stuff off my hands if I need really clean hands after I've been working on shoes.

Gee, a taffy--err coad pull--would be a great addition to the HCC meeting! Larry?
Georgene

Alasdair,

I think I've said this before but that's such a good tutorial. I wish you had posted it here.

Two remarks: first kerosene is a good solvent for pine rosin and pine pitch--hand wax, in other words (I'm not using the word "coad" anymore...I learned my lesson )

Second, a good quick substitute (maybe add a bit of beeswax) is hot melt wax also known as Atom Wax (brand name?)...still readily available at your local finders/grindery (is "grindery" OK?) I especially like it for a "white " wax...such as you might use on linen thread for outseaming.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

DW,

Thank you. I'd be happy to repost that here. It would just be a cut and paste job. I'll do that in a few minutes.

I just use the C word because that seems to be what it's ended up being called in the reenactment world

I've not heard of Atom wax. The Rosin/beeswax mix I'm using doesn't seem to color thread that much. The closing seam below was done with white barbours #10 and the top band was done with an unbleached wet-spun swedish #12.


my problem is that I need a black wax because I'm working on early 16th century style welted shoes (my first right-side-out lasted shoes):


Using white thread on a black welt sets off the modern shoe alarms (whether or not it's accurate for the period) and has the added disadvantage of showing up my somewhat unpracticed stitching . From what I've read here and on Marc's site it sounds like the wax used in the medieval period should probably be pitch black anyway so failing sources in NZ I'm working on getting some from the UK.

I have managed to make contact with Liverpool Oil and Grease through a friend who lives in Liverpool.

The chap only takes cash or cheque and doesn't deliver internationally, but I am hoping I can get my friend to go shopping for me and organise surface shipping through a freight company seeing as I need to bring some boxwood over anyway.

The shipping cost might prove prohibitive, but the price quoted for 1-4 litres of the stuff was 30-40 pounds sterling. That much should do me for life even if I do onsell a bunch of it. Apparently the cost is in the packaging time rather than the material itself so if shipping is manageable I'll get the larger quantity.

A couple of questions before I go and make this investment:

Firstly, can anyone advise as to whether I should aim to get burgundy pitch or caulking pitch? The photos and descriptions of burgundy pitch I've seen online are all a lot lighter in color than the one Marc posted above. I was expecting something black but the descriptions all say it is medium brown to light tan. If I can ever get to talk to the guy myself I hope to be able to figure this out but so far I've only gotten his answering machine.

Secondly, does anyone have an alternative, perhaps cheaper, source for pitches than this? From older posts it doesn't sound like it but Marc and Craig have obviously managed to get hold of some somehow.

If it is very difficult to get and people want it, should I look at getting it shipped to the US from Liverpool and divvied up amongs folk who want it, with some send on to me in NZ?

Thanks.

I got this stuff


from http://www.woodenboatstore.com/prodinfo.asp?number=832%2D005P

I guess these boat guys use it for sealing between boat timbers but the label shows that the manufacturers intent was to put on horse hoof as an antibacterial. It is truly some nasty smelling stuff. There is another product there that claims to smell good. Wish I had got that one!

I think tar and pitch are the same, no? I don't have enough experience to know if this is going to work out. I have made a few batches:

My original mixture of rosin/beeswax/pitch of 1:1:1 was way too sticky.
Second batch rosin/beeswax 1:1 too brittle.
Third batch rosin/beeswax/pitch of 2:2:1 plus a couple drops fish oil seemed just right, but was too soft when I tried to inseam with it. My next batch I will up the rosin a bit, but I'm close.

BTW, it is very dark and makes a black hand wax. and smell is not so bad after combined with other ingredients.

I suspect that's what's called Stockholm tar here. It's a liquid, yes?

I think the difference between tar and pitch is that pitch is tar with all the runny bits distilled out. That may well be your problem if your wax is coming out too soft. Have you tried it without any beeswax at all?

As I understand it rosin is distilled resin, whereas pitch and tar come from a dry distillation of the stump and roots (or modernly the whole trunk). I keep seeing things sold as "pitch" that look like rosin to me so I might be wrong about that.

There is an interesting brief history of pine tar at http://www.maritime.org/conf/conf-kaye-tar.htm

When David Kilgour showed me how to mount up bristles he used stockholm tar he'd boiled down, and that seemed to work, but I'm not in a position to do that myself and I want to get stuff I can easily pass on to other reenactors as I try and get them interested in shoemaking.

Rick, Alasdair,

Yeah, the tar is definately not the same as pitch. I have a large quantity of pitch from the old Rausch Naval Yard and it is a black solid. I have some Burgundy pitch and it is kind of a brownish black solid. Rosin can be anywhere from a pale amber to a greyish tan.

Boiling down the tar might work but I think there must be a lot of residual turpentine in the tar. I would prefer the pitch to trying to boli it down.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HC

I finally managed to make contact with the chap at Liver Grease Oil & Chemical Co. and had a chat to him about the pitches he has.

Unfortunately he said that pine pitches are basically impossible to get these days because the production process is so messy and time-consuming that nobody wants to do it.

His Burgundy pitch is something he makes up to order and while he didn't say exactly what went into it from the physical description it sounds pretty much like the hand wax I'm using already.

A minor but important point that got lost in the communication with my friend is that the 30-40 pounds sterling price is per kilo which makes it way to rich for my pocket.

He did say that he'd had inquiries from the royal college of silversmiths looking for genuine pine pitch, which they use as a base against which to do repousse work, so if I did come across a source he wanted to know.

His best suggestion was distilling down stockholm tar, which I'm still not sure I'm keen to do in a built-up urban area.

I bet if you comb back through the Forum archives you'll find several old formulas for this wax, so you won't have to be ruining good ingredients experienting and reinventing the wheel.

To reiterate, I've always started with 1 part rosin to 2 parts pine pitch (chunks), then added just a wee bit of beeswax if it's too brittle.

The pitch needs to be solid chunks to begin with, not thick liquid like tar. Liverpool no longer has this, nor does North Sea & Baltic. We're getting some samples in from Sweden soon I hope.

Maybe somebody out West can get to Montana "pitch-blend" and see where they get their pitch. It sure smells like the right stuff.

Rick,
Is the Bickmore pine tar like a thick liquid? I might be tempted to try it, if it is.

Alasdair,
Thank you for the information, I will refer to your page the next tim I try making "shoemaker's taffy."

Georgene,
I think a lesson such as you suggested would be a marvelous addition to the annual meeting. Great idea!

Has anyone tried doing anything with bitumin? Roofing tar?

The danger is, we are all using terms that might not mean the same thing in each of our minds. For instance: what is the difference between pitch and rosin? I understood they were the same, but I am apparently in error. I also understand that pine tar is the black stuff and rosin is more amber in color. The pine tar I have is solid and brittle, and does not seem to want to melt and blend.

You know what? I never was any good at chemestry. If I could buy a 1/2 pound of the stuff already made up, I would not have to keep revisiting my high-school chemestry failures. That would please me.
Thanks for everyone's time,

Bruce

The Bickmore product is a thick black liquid.

Rosin is pine resin (direct from the tree) with the turpentine removed. Here is a reference that I skimmed a bit. http://www.fao.org/docrep/V6460E/v6460e00.htm

Seems rosin may be chemically modified for various end uses.

Wikipedia says pitch is pine resin and Pine tar is a sticky material produced by the high temperature carbonization of pine wood in anoxic conditions (dry distillation or destructive distillation).

So I guess tar and pitch are not the same at all.

I could be wrong...I can't find my notes on this question...but I think it is Wikipedia that is wrong, unless I'm mis-reading the definition quoted above (re-reading it, now, that seems more than a little likely).

But, pitch is not "pine resin." It might be a mix of "pine resin and pine tar" "produced by the high temperature carbonization of pine wood in anoxic conditions."

I spoke to old man Rausch some years back (I posted my notes on the forum some years back--it might be on the Archive CD), and as I recall he said that pitch was derived differently from rosin and that it involved some burning off of the turpentine and involved burning of the wood.

They certainly do not look or feel equivalent to me. Pitch has a certain elasticity that rosin doesn't have. Rosin is unforgivenly brittle and will, in a shop where there is plenty of vibration, go from a bag of one to two inch lumps to a bag of dust.

Pitch can be broken into chunks with a sharp rap (a lot like breaking hard taffy) but if not used will eventually "melt" back into a solid piece.

Rausch always claimed that the pitch they made (they were the largest/only[?] manufacturer of pitch in the US until Katrina wiped them out), could be had in three hardnesses...soft, medium, and hard.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

DW,
This is the severalth (I think I just invented a word!) time I've heard about Wikipedia being incorrect. I tend to not trust it too completely. I would also tend to believe the guy that makes the stuff as a reliable source of information. Is the company dead, or will they resurect?

The only of these products I have worked with much at all is rosin, and that only in the form of applicant to a fiddle bow. It looked like the stuff I had (past tense) when I first tried to make hand wax six or so years ago.

Does anyone know of a place where I may purchase hand wax pre-made? I am of the opinion that my time is smarter-spent in practicing actual shoe-making, rather than experimenting with waxes. Thus far, my experiments have been exercizes in frustration.

I hate it when I find my (unintentional) spelling and gramatical mistakes only after I've posted the message! Sorry to any offended by them.

B

Bruce,

Again, any finder--where you get your soles and rubber heels, thread, etc.--will have Atom Wax or "hot wax." If you find a source for it buy ten pounds...curved needle machines don't use hot wax much anymore and they may not be making it for much longer. I think Michael Anthony once told me he uses it "as is," to inseam but I like to add a little beeswax to it just to prevent it from flaking.

Other than that, places like Southern Leather in Tulsa (?) or an outfit like Ward and Kennedy (if they are still in business...and I think they are) will have Jered Holt's hand wax. It comes wrapped up in a little square of brown paper and is generally black, black, black (although they used to make a "summer" wax that was brown) and, in my opinion, a little brittle. It was, I think, originally softened with oil. But oil can be, as Al says, "fugitive" and it would be better to add a little beeswax to the lump and heat it--don't let it smoke--and then re-pull.

Beyond that McPherson's in Seattle carries (or can get) Goetz products and Goetz offers a Swedish hand wax called Vaxbeck (item #74308802 for black and #74308811 for gold). I've used the Vaxbeck...I think Al once said that some of his apprentices actually prefer it to "homemade"...and it's OK--maybe not as bone-jarringly sticky as good handwax but very usable.

Unfortunately, I heard that Rausch was done. Sad. [img]http://www.thehcc.org/forum/images/old_smilies/sad.gif"%20ALT="sad[/img]

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

I've just done a bit of googling following Craig's hint on Gugolz polishing pitch and it looks promising to me.

It's carried in the USA by Meller Optics and their data sheet on it says it is a plant-derived product and contains no petroleum products. It can also be had through gotgrit.com.

Yesterday I emailed the people at http://www.auson.se/ to see if they have it. I'll report back when I hear from them.

Friends,
I usually try to ad to the topic just to find that I am two steps out of synch. But, just in case I might be able to bring something to the table, I purchased three types of rosin. One was from the music world, the kind they use for violins. The next was a supplier that sold lumps in blue pint bottles, a bit pricey. The stuff I am using right now comes from a local saddlery and is used by rodeo bull riders to make their riggin' sticky. It is packaged in a brown cloth sack with a plastic liner. It looks like a bull scrotum. It melts in a boiling warer pan and is very light amber in color. I mix bee's wax in about 50/50. I do the taffy pull, be careful it is hot, and then I put it in a clean empty tuna fish can. I dig it out and use it to wax my inseam thread. I use a glove when stitching and I smear the rosin goo on the glove where I am pulling the thread. I think it is doing the job OK. The really nice thing is that the rosin is cheaper than purchasing two packages of cigaretts.

I have a friend that is a brick/block layer. He told me that on some jobs they use rosin on their gloves to get a better grip on the brick. I have not heard back from him since having that conversation. I think the Bull rider rosin is what I will stick with, no pun intended.

D.W. usually gives me gentle correction if I am out of line on the subjects. I value this direction. Please, as always, take this with Magnus, Grainus, Saltus. I am finding that I know less and less about everything in the boot making world as I read and learn more and more. If this is helpful, more power to you. I wish you well

Your friend, Larry Peterson