The Crispin Colloquy

Zach, at the top of this page if you click on archive 1151 at the top it shows a standard by Jon Gray,
if you look at the back of the heel you can see that there would be no way to flatten out the back quarters and have that straight seam like you have in your picture.
I think the heel is trying to push back and thats making the top push in.
theres lots of pattern books that show how to do it.
Those look pretty good to me though.
I'm no expert though, so I could be tottally wrong.

Courtney

Zac

It looks like the back of the boot is tilting inwards. If you straightened it up you may have better luck. There doesn't look like enough room at the top. It's ok to remove the curve like you have, but you need enough room for the leg to fit in.

Tim

Zac:

Compared to the pattern books I looked at, the back of your pattern clearly looks too far forward.

In Patrick, he has a pattern for a derby boot.

First, you need to make sure your pattern starts with the forme raised to the proper heel height.

Then, starting with your forme with the heel raised to the correct heel height, you can draw a vertical line from the heel base line through the Counter Point, and up to your desired top height. The top of the boot is only about 1/4" forward of this vertical line.

Also, front of the boot is 1/2" above the back height, i.e. the top has a slight incline from back to front.

Hope that all makes sense.

Lance

The back seam needs to be an "S" curve...it is that shape that keeps the tops from digging into the leg.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[center]Little Jack Dandiprat in a white petticoat,
The longer he lives, the shorter he grows.[/center]

Zac:

DW is right about that -- I was going to mention it but forgot.

Also, if you are using a shoe last, you may want to make the pattern such that above the counter point the back curve stands a bit away from the forme. The heel curve of a shoe last is more extreme than that of a boot last, since a shoe needs to grip the foot around the topline, whereas the boot has less of this need.

Lance

Zac

I agree with Lance and DW. However, perhaps a couple of diagrams might make things a little clearer. They come from a book on pattern cutting taken from the chapter about a high pull-on boot.



They show the line deviating from that normal used for shoes quite well.

Frank Jones
frank.jones@noblefootwear.com

Thank you for all of the help!
It is a shoe last, and I'd been just guessing what the back line should be.

This is my first design without a seam in the back and I'd been having trouble wrapping my mind around how a completely 2-d piece of leather would stretch into place. (I guess that's what the vamp does) I was worried about it not curving enough on top of the heel. Didn't worry enough about the top of the boot.

Zach,

You need to start with a book on patterning. You can download Golding and or Thornton from the HCC Digital Library. Either or both will give you an idea of how to layout a pattern and what the shape of the backseam, topline, etc, should look like. Frank's Book is also very valuable and unlike the others focused entirely on patternmaking.

If you are going to make a chukka or any kind of ankle boot/shoe with no back seam, you will need to "block" the rough cut quarters to create the same shape that the quarters would have if they had been seamed. At which point...and only then...can the quarters be cut to size and shape.

I do this frequently--mostly for linings. But I'm not above doing it for chukka's and jodhpurs...both for the upper and the lining.

That said, beginning with a firm understanding of formes, how to derive a pattern from them, and the subsequent allowances that must be made for stiffeners, or, as Lance alluded to, modified lasts to accommodate ease of entry, etc., is critical.

To the extent that you are guessing at the shape of the backseam or the board that is used for blocking, your shoes will suffer, not only aesthetically but functionally.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[center]Little Jack Dandiprat in a white petticoat,
The longer he lives, the shorter he grows.[/center]

(Message edited by dw on July 14, 2012)

(Message edited by dw on July 14, 2012)

Been following along and just had to jump in here:

Made a few pairs of one-piece backs by averaging the back line on Golding's standard. They fit OK, but wasn't ever a big fan of how they looked. Squatty at the bottom and shapeless at the top, like an inverted "V".

Never occurred to me to block them, but it makes perfect sense. (Duh)!

Thanks DW.

-Nat

Nat,

I'm a bootmaker...it occurs to me to block everything.

I have a pair of whole cut chelsea's on the last...seamed up the back, of course. But the lining is seamed at the sides so that it won't stress the backseam on the uppers.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[center]Little Jack Dandiprat in a white petticoat,
The longer he lives, the shorter he grows.[/center]

It's amazing how things that are so obvious can be so elusive. One comment can turn on all the light bulbs and suddenly you see what was right there all along.

I still have so much to learn! At least I'm still enjoying the ride.

Regards,
-Nat

So, I've been reading Golding and Parick and searching the archives and I can't seem to find anything about blocking the quarters. Do I just make a 1" thick board with a sharp(er) edge on it like a crimping board, but it has the shape of the back of the boot?
Also, this works with chrome tanned leather too doesn't it?

Zach,

Precisely. Make sure you incorporate the allowance for the heel stiffened in the profile of the board.

If you do a lining you can cut the lining and mount it such that there is a gap...where the heel stiffener will go...between the lining and the back quarter.

Yes, it works for chrome tans, as well. But I will almost always line a shoe or ankle boot with veg--there is less chance of the soft chrome tan "rucking" up under the heel as it enters the shoe.

Good luck.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[center]Little Jack Dandiprat in a white petticoat,
The longer he lives, the shorter he grows.[/center]

I posted twice to an error in the net! sorry!

(Message edited by simon_brusa on July 28, 2012)

hello all!
I posted some time ago photos of a pair of sandals with whom I had had problems in the tip.
I asked for help and thanks to some advice I have now redone and this is the result.
They are very comfortable (even if one is a little higher than the other!) And I wear them forever!

I had two questions to you experts regarding the realization of a pair of boots that will start soon when I come all the material that I ordered.

I did not understand what should I do with leather reinforcements to put between lining and upper. Let me explain.
I need my shoe is very strong (I would use to go to work in the woods, fields, and in many situations that require it is very hard especially on the sides), as they once did for the farmers (in this respect I found here this picture posted by Nassar showing what I would like to play: ).

Can you explain what kind of leather I use to carry reinforcements? thickness that should have? (I'm not very good at skiving) with a picture of me understand how to put the lateral reinforcement?

The second question concerns the cover instead.
Since I live where winter temperatures are very low and since I suffer from cold feet, I ask you this thing is a good idea to put between lining and upper (in whole shoe) a layer of wool felt about 2mm? can give a good result or only creates problems when lasting?

I hope I was clear and I hope someone has the patience to respond to a novice like me!
thanks a lot greetings to all
Simon

Simone,

It is good to see some improvement in your work,everyone start somewhere,we all go through it,it is eye opening.
For your side lining,I use my shoe leather little pieces,skiving the top part of the side lining will help blend it in with the upper as not to see it when the shoe is lasted but you must buy knives and practice,wet the leather when you practice skiving until you get good with knife,back to side linings,make them fit from the edge of your heel counter and the edge of toe cap.
The old shoes in the photo are from the Jewel of Europe, Scotland Grampian highlands and they were concealed until the time came.
2-Since you are making them for yourself,you can what you like within reason,I personally will use denser thicker leather for top,lining and side lining,you can also make the shoe half size bigger to accommodate for thick wool socks.Let us know if have a question.

I'm not an expert at shoes, but I know a little about wool linings. Have you looked at a design called a pac boot? The leather boot is made a size or two larger, and a separate wool boot (the pac) is made to go inside the leather boot.

Traditional mongolian boots are made this way, but they call the pac a sock.

The wool wears out faster than the leather, and can be replaced several times over the life of the leather boot. Wool sewn between the layers of leather could be a problem if the fibers migrate and become lumpy. Wool will continue to felt any time it is damp warm and agitated, which if there is any little leak that allows snow or sweat to get to it will happen inside the boot.

Thanks for the reply Nasser and Denise,
I'm glad appreciate your interest in my progress.

Now I have to make a sandal in red leather and I'm waiting for the new lasts purchased from a factory here in Italy.
I will then probably a few more questions about the project.

After that I will get to work on these boots and I have to find the leather called "leather galluser" or the "double leather tanning amphibious" but I have no idea where to turn.
It is not easy to find leather details over the internet.

There is always a lot to learn!

Thanks again for your attention.
greetings
Simon

Interesting...
It looks like Galluser leather is made by applying Polyurethane to the flesh side after tanning to make it waterproof. Would be nice to hear more about this from someone with experience. ???

-Nat

According to "World Leather Business Week"; Galluser tannery was purchased by "Max Gimmel AG" in August 2010.

WLBW article

Perhaps try contacting Max Gimmel AG?
Gimmel

Hello everyone!
I again need help from you experts! My doubts are quite a few, I hope not having to set too many problems!

Should I make a pair of sandals, and how basic idea I wish they were like these:
I made this pattern of a last (woman number 37).

First of all, I would ask if there are errors in the model base that will create problems in wearing the shoe.

I wanted to ask if there is a way to achieve this upper in one piece without seams in the sides, but only a single seam in the backstay. (I do not think so because of the drawstring).

The biggest problem then covers the back.
How should the line between S and T? A straight line (yellow line)? or to follow the line of the last (red line)?

I then also to do a boot that I was like this:
The model that I have is this:
Here, too, I have several questions:
with regard to the back of the shoe my question is the same as that for the sandal, only that in this case, the piece (quarter) would be unique.

Another question is in the line of lace stay.
I have designed it but I have not points of reference in this regard. I have to follow that rule because it is the right way? so that when closed well cover the tongue?
A final question concerns the reinforcement on the heel. At that height creates problems for the comfort of the shoe?

Sorry for so many questions but I do not know how else to do for not build wrong shoes!
Every little help will be greatly appreciated!
thanks
greetings
Simon

For the sandal/shoe the back seam needs to be cut more like your cps line rather than TS, TS is good for your ankle boot and yes you can cut it in one piece with seam in the back,I will give you a hint and let you think the rest, for pattern making is all about thinkingif you put your mean frome(profile) on a folded piece of paper you realize you only need the fold in the front,your drawstring can be cut as long as you like it to be. For your ankle boots
Visit, nasserviesshoes there are many examples of back seam shapes and pattern.

Nasser

simon, I went to the drawing board and realized you gonna need one side seam to enable you to make the drawstring in one piece.

Curious; What patterning method is being used here?

Also; Is the ankle location defined in this pattern? (can't see it) If not, How is a proper heel counter designed to make sure there's clearance?

There's always a chance to learn something new!

-Nat

I have a question concerning the slope of the insole when creating a pattern for an existing last

After having used the tape method for creating a pattern (for a court shoe) with an existing last I started to draw a pattern from scratch.
Having measured the last length, heel height etc I used a CAD program (Inkscape) to draw a pattern which worked pretty nicely so far.

BUT I ran into a problem:
1.) How do I transfer / measure the slope of the insole of the last into my drawing???

2.) Is there a standard angle that is natural which one can use if one for example has not got a last yet (so that I can avoid measuring angles from the last)??

thank you all so much in advance!!

Marlen