The Crispin Colloquy

Courtney

Ideally you should use a shover at the back to straighten up the back curve, but you can get away without it as long as the back of the boot does not pull in tight all the way up the back. You can't really avoid the shover at the front though. If you don't use it the possibility of not being able to get your foot in becomes much greater.

It's not worth trying to avoid the front shovers on a shoe last.

Tim

O.K., but if your measurements are already right on the shoe last and then you add shovers on the cone then it would make the last too big right? How do you know how much to add for the shovers?

If my short heel measured 13 1/2"in. on the foot and the last and then I add shovers would'nt it be too big then?

Courtney

The short heel measurement is needed to insure that the foot can get into the boot. But in most cases a one-to-one correlation with where the short heel is measured on the foot and a corresponding configurtion on the last is impossible. The short heel of the foot is measured from the outside corner of the heel to the inside corner at the ankle. The ankle side location can be thought of as the "terminus" and the terminus would be in mideair above the cone of the last on nearly every last...even boot lasts if the short heel measurement from the foot is superimposed on the profile of the last.

In practice this means that there is no way to measure the short heel of the last correctly. If you are relying on measurements provided by a lastmaker, be aware that I've yet to meet a lastmaker that measures even the most basic girths is the same place or the same way that a shoemaker measures the foot.

functionally, this, in turn means that the boot will not fit exactly around the short heel of the foot--the tops should 'break' at the high instep or even a little lower. The terminus of the short heel be at least an inch above the high instep mark. So a shover that alters the last from the high intep up will not affect the fit of the boot nor the way in which the short heel measurement from the foot affects that foot.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

So I should skive my shover from nothing at the low instep to it's final height at the high instep and to the top of the cone?

How would I know how much to build it up?

Courtney

Well, I wouldn't know how much to skive or how much to build up...I've never used a shover like that simply because I have a couple of runs of boot lasts.

That said...and I'm guessing...I wouldn't think you'd want the shover to encroach or cover the low istep at all. This is an area that is "inside" the boot and any buildup there will affect fit.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

Courtney

I have been away for a few days so didn't get to this earlier.

Cut the shover from heavy soling leather and skive the bottom edge only. If you need to wet it a bit to mould it over the cone of the last, do that and let it dry. It shouldn't reach as far as the joint line, and one is fine.

I used to last the lining and then push the shover in from the top, the lining stretched enough to allow insertion and held it in place. Then last the upper. If it is too sloppy later you can pull it out a bit and re last that part of the boot again to tighten if needed.

Tim

Courtney

I have just noticed that on this page there is a photo of a pair of lasts that you submitted. There is blue paint on the cone of the bottom last that is close to what the shover should look like, and it's postition. The blue probably comes a bit far down the cone, but that is as close as I can describe easily.

Tim

Thanks Tim, But how do you determine how much to add to your measurements?
If I already have the lasts fitted up to where they are close to my foot measurements,
I obviously dont want to just slap a big piece of leather over the cone and change all the girths.

So, how do you arrive at how much to add for a pull on boot?

D.W. suggested that the shover should be added in the area of the high instep up.

Any additional input would be great.

Thanks,
Courtney

Courtney

Just do your patterns to the measurements you have and build your last to them too. The shover is to give you space over and above the last. If it doesn't fit right you can either add another shover, or move the one you have.

I guess that the skiving does put most of the thickness at the high instep.

I don't know of any hard and fast rules sorry.

Tim

(Message edited by artzend on December 01, 2009)

Thanks Tim, maybe I should try a few more with laces before I try a pull on boot, we'll see.

Courtney

Courtney

By all means have a go at a pullon boot, don't be put off. The main thing is to have your last built to the right specifications, the shover really only affects the area above the instep measurement, but if you don't use one you are likely not to get the foot in at all.

If it is too sloppy, you can always pull the shover up a bit and re-last the instep.

Always remember to remove the shover before you take the boot off the last. It will be difficult if you don't.

The shover at the back is not as important as the front one.

Tim

I have a feeling I know the answer I will get but,

Do you guys think you really need shovers if you make a Jodhpur on a shoe last?

It's not exactly a pull on boot if it fastens with straps right?

It would seem like you would have some leeway with being able to open up the shafts.

Thanks,
Courtney

Courtney,

Careful.... a "shover", strictly speaking, is an instep leather fitting that extends all the way to the toe of the last. An "instep leather" just goes down the instep to the joints roughly.

In answer though, "it depends" on your shoe last. If the cone or crest ridge of the instep is high and narrow, or low and flat. Any kind of closed front boot really wants a nicely defined, higher instep cone or crest IMO.

Thanks, I would assume that would apply to a zipper boot too, but why?

Seems you would have lots of ways to wiggle your way into a zipper boot that had a closed front and then you would have ankle support once you were in if you didnt have that pass line extra built in?

Also I am in the process of my fourth pair of shoes and the first with a sewing machine, I thought they would look all proffesional with the machine but so far they are looking worse than when I hand sewed them.

I cant figure out how to sew close to the buckle I'm putting on, even though Tim describes a way to do it I cant figure it out so I'm going to hand sew that part, I put a rivet in but it went in kind of funny and I thought it might be uncomforatable.

Any tips for sewing a buckle?

I have made several zipper boots now, on shoe lasts, and I find that it can be quite tricky to get the zipper perfectly situated such that the boot can be got on without difficulty.

It can be done but the tolerances are unforgiving IMHO. I'm leaning toward providing a little 'give' in the high instep area, like a boot last but maybe not quite so much as that.

Rick,

If I may make an observation...based on zero experience making zipper boots....

I have never seen a zipper boot that fit close to the leg in the ankle area. They almost all bag down around the ankle--it's virtually a design feature and part of the aesthetics.

I wonder if the "extra" that you're looking for isn't better placed in the "passline" region than over the instep?

Just a passing thought...

Courtney,

One way to mount a buckle...not the fanciest, but one of the easiest to both do and replace...is simply to hand-stitch it directly to the quarter with several passes of thread on either side of the tongue.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

What style of boots are you making?

If you locate the zipper instead of a back strap like in the photo there will be no problem. The boot will open up wide and you can make it about as snug as the shin is.

(Message edited by Janne_melkersson on February 15, 2010)

Thanks Jan, I want to make Engineer\motorcycle boots and Jodhpurs eventually,

But I dont like the looseness in the ankle/pass line, so I thought a zipper would work.

Obviously I dont think that would work for Jodhpurs
but I only have a pair of shoe lasts and I have spent a long time modifying them so would like to use them for boots if I can.

Courtney

You don't use a passline for zip boots. They fit to the ankle as you suspect. Just take the opening far enough down for the foot to enter without too much pressure on the zip.


tim

Jan-Erik,

I like the back zipper. Do you just split the heel counter in half?

Rick,
Sorry, I should have said in the posting that these boots are not made by me. I have not made any riding boot with zippers at the back but many traditionally boots both dressage and all kinds of field boots. About 1995 an Italian maker came up with this construction and he was extremely successful. Since then the zipper boot is still the most popular boot in Europe and I wouldn't be surprised if not that is the case world wide.

The counter is partly cut in half in these boots. To avoid this you have to sew the zipper another way. Start at the medial side and let it curve up above the counter cover. This will create a nice boot with the counter intact.

The reason the boot is so popular is because of the slim fit.

Do you think you could just start above the counter and still get your foot in?

No, if so the heel will not pass through the pass line.

I was talking about sewing in the zipper with a curve from the inside. Of course you can do that from the outside too as shown in the photo
Another way is to do it straight as shown on this dressage boot
None of these boots are mine

Would it work to use a basic western boot constuction method with the low heel and then run the zipper like the medial side one?

I am sort of a 1 trick pony on boots and that way would let me make zippers with what I know how to do. Of course the tops would have to be fit tighter, but that is no big deal.

Thanks.

Paul

Jan-Erick,
Could you provide any guidance about how to actually construct the back zipper boot?

I am guessing you would just make the patterns, then deduct how ever wide the zipper was add the zipper and then slide the counter with the slot cut out into a stiffener pocket?

There is a famous motorcycle leather company called Lewis leathers in england that had some really cool boots with back zips in the 50's I'll see if I can post a picture.