The Crispin Colloquy

Courtney,

The build up you see on the shoes are skived round the edge,they are two pieces and they are layered some distance from each other,i have used and seen build up made on shoe last to make boots on them and they are of course skived to blend in with the last and usually made of one piece veg tan leather and is not cemented to anything,but tacked to last and they are used over and over for the same size last or close size.

Nasser

This is probably a simple question?

Is there a rule about where to start building toe shapes on the last?

On my recent shoes, they have a moc toe, I have built them up to where I dont really remember what they looked like originally.

I had the sharp wall from the toe even back to the outside ball which left way to much space above my little toe causing it to make a big uncomforatable dip in the shoe when my foot flexes.

I am assuming thats what caused that?

Should I taper the sharp wall from just in front of the ball to the toe, or keep it rounded till just behind the toe box?

What do you guys think?

I guess since I'm modifying the lasts I have to make a new mean forme?

Should I try and take my shoes apart and re-last them or just start from scratch?

Thanks,
Courtney

Courtney,

Here is the way I look at it...

The toe shape has nothing to do with holding the shoe on the foot. The foot is held by fitting from the ball joints back.

The only consideration is that the toes not be restricted by the toe shape. Achieving this may vary from person to person. Some peoples toes want to spread more than others as they walk. Other people don't mind if the toe touches their toes on either side. But it should never constrict them. Also, the foot moves forward slightly as you step, so there needs to be a little space up front to allow this.

Once you meet your goals, in this regard, you are free to shape the toe however you want. However, you don't want it flopping out in front of you like a clown shoe either. This will cause you to feel like you are going to trip over it or other problems with too much extra material up front, as you describe.

I have made pointed shoes with very little extra room up front and box toe shoes with lots of room. They both fit the same.

I hope this helps,

- Rick

Thanks Rick,

I guess what I'm asking is, Should the whole forefoot in front of the ball begin the shape or should it go from the more rounded contours of the foot into the moccasin wall about where the toe puff starts?

Also, it was the height of the vamp that I believe was causing the problem, just in case I was'nt clear

Thanks,
Courtney

(Message edited by courtney on September 29, 2009)

I guess I'd say that as long as you adhere to the general principles above, you have lots off leeway to shape it as you like.

Of course, you want the lines to mesh nicely with the shape further back. I usually take care of my fit parameters from the balls back and then shape the toe forward to work nicely with the lines further back.

In many cases, I am trying to make the toe as small and sleek as possible but, if the foot is wide at the ball, there is a limit to how fast you can dive in to a pointed toe without it looking goofy.

As for space above the toes, you need to leave some room for the leather to crease when you walk.

This depends on the thickness of the leather. You also don't want the toe puff too far back or it will cause an uncomfortable crease.

I'm still nor sure if I'm answering your question. Maybe a picture would help.

On the first pic,
the mark closest to toe is about the toe box,
the line on top in the middle is about where the crease happens,
and the two are my ball.

On the 2nd pic shows the wall of the other last.

So, my question is, to bring down the height above my little toe so the crease dosent have so far to push down, Should I taper the wall up like a ramp towards the toe,

Or,

kind of round it all down and then try to start it closer to the toe puff? Or something else?

Hopefully this makes sense.

Thanks,
Courtney

(Message edited by courtney on September 29, 2009)

Did you put any sidewall reinforcement between the liner and outer leather?

I'm not positive but I think this helps suppress uneven creasing.

Like this?

No I did'nt.
Do you think the lasts dont look like thats the problem?

Courtney

You know, I can't say definitively but I don't see any reason that the shape of the side wall would cause excessive creasing.

The side wall reinforcements do help the sides keep their intended shape and I always put them in.

Will it fix your specific problem? I don't know. But it will certainly change the dynamics of creasing. It make some sense that it would help.

Having said all this, I have experienced this creasing problem mildly myself. It seems that, over time, the crease area breaks in a bit and the problem becomes less pronounced... unless the toe puff is the cause. In whch case it will not go away.

Thanks Rick,

I will try the reinforcements. I have seen them and know of thier existance, but is there any Rules of how to do them.

I actually shaved down some of the height on the lasts toe towards the ball and there was a corner of the wall starting right at the ball I took down too. before I took the pictures.

It seems like the shoe is kind of meant to crease there when the foot bends, and the higher it is the bigger dip / crease it can make?

Anyway, the reinforcements seem like a good idea.

Thanks,
Courtney

You can use any leather but I try to use pretty thin stuff. Any additional thickness adds significant reinforcement. You can also use AP cement for a more flexible support or Hirschkleber for a stiffer result. You have to intuit what will work best with your particular outer leather and liner combination.

I skive the edges and then apply grain side down. Then sand or file until no transition can be detected. It really goes very fast, once you get used to it.

Of course, the leather must crease to accommodate the flexing of the forefoot. If you imagine there being no space at all between the top of the toes and the leather... any crease will impact the foot.

I would say, that if the leather is thin overall, you need less space and a little more space if it is thicker. I'm not sure what happens if you have way too much space. But I think it is safe to say, you don't want this condition either.

- Rick

So do you only glue the grain side to the uppers with no bond to the lining? [I would assume.]

How do you locate, and how high up should they go?

Would you use the same leather as the lining or upper?

I have seen it in HMSFM, but dont think I've read about how to do it.

Is it in any of the Golding digitisations? I have Tim's book but I dont think its in there, I have Thornton I would guess its in there, I'll go check.

Thanks,
Courtney

I think I mention sidelinings in the book Courtney, they underlay the toe puff by 20mm or so and under the stiffener by the same. You have to skive them really fine or they will show on the outside. You glue them to the linings not the uppers.

Use a light roo if you have it and really skive well. That is the secret, a long skive, and very fine top edge, the bottom doesn't matter. The top should reach the top of the wall but not over the top.

It really doesn't matter whether you use lining or upper material, it should be thin but more substantial than pigskin. Goat lining is ok and anything like that.

Sorry it's a bit long winded but I was writing as I thought of it.

Tim

I do it pretty much the same as Tim does...whether I picked up that technique from Tim's excellent book or somewhere else, I can't say. But it's really the only thing that makes sense.

I generally use Hirschkleber or Yes!, is pretty much dependent upon my mood and sometimes I will use AP although I would rather not.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

FWIW, I have had the wrinkle problem when the last is too full around the joint. Might double check the ball girth measurement. With a square cornered last, it must be thin over the joint to get to the measurement which adds to the problem.

The good news is the boot will probably break in so it is not a problem. The wrinkle will still be there but it won't pinch.

Thanks guys,

Tim I looked in the book, I cant find it.
Not in thornton either.

If they underlay the toe puff and stiffener and are only glued to the lining, how exactly do you do that?

Pg. 139 in HMSFM shoes the uppers with reinforcements ready for lasting, but they have everything in there toe puff, & counter.
That looks like a disaster ready to happen, especially in my hands!

Any further instruction about how to actually put these in would be great!

In Ricks picture they overlay the stiffener and toe puff and I guess are glued to the lining,

Tim you said to underlay, is that what you meant?
Should the come down under the lasting margin?

Thanks,
Courtney

Courtney

You can mark where the toe puff and the stiffener are going to be on your lining and glue the side lining to the lining and running over those marks. Then last the shoe as normal.

What Rick has done is ok too but I would be worried about the edges showing. And yes they are only glued to the lining and yes the bottom edge can go all the way to the lasting edge, it really needs to be lasted under the feather edge anyway.

Tim

Tim,
Thanks, I think I got it.

Courtney

Emboldened by my last last making project, I boldly stepped into making another pair.

This time a 2.5 inch heel women's last, slated for zipper boots again.

I have to say, it is a totally worthwhile endeavor if only for the insight it gives in adjusting lasts.

Wow Rick,

Those look great. You gave me the incentive to try making one from scratch myself. It was a very good learning experience in that it makes you think about how to work the shape of the last on those parts you just take for granted on a store bought one. Not only that, it is fun to shape wood.

Paul

Hey Rick

What type of wood are you useing? I know you told us what it was in the past, but tell us again. Very nice work.

Lonnie

I'm using beech that I got at the bargain wood store. Other candidates mentioned by Koleff are maple, hard meranti and sycamore.

Seems like maple should always be pretty easy to get.

A friend of mine, on the east coast, has a duplicator which we put together.
As shown, we are copying a duck.
It has an attachment to mount pieces
in a lathe-like orientation, ostensibly
for duplicating gun stocks but
this config would work for shoe lasts
too.


Of course, it doesn't do me much good here
in Massachusetts. It cost about $2,500.

I have a couple questions, If I was to make a pull on boot on a shoe last, I understand that I should put shovers on the back to straighten up the heel, I have also heard I should put shovers on the front, but what if my short heel measurement on the last is already right? Wouldnt that just mess everything up, What is the purpose of the front shovers?

Also, is there a way to print something off this forum without printing pages of every post? I havent tried printing anything but thats what I assume would happen.

Thanks,
Courtney

Courtney,

I've seen diagrams where boot last back curves are slightly less than found on shoes. On women's zipper boos, however, I have used the regular shoe back curve with good results.

It makes sense that a pull on might have a lesser back curve, if for no other reason than to allow the foot to slip in easier. Although the one boot las I have is not substantially different from my shoe lasts.

I also have the same question about the short heel on a slip on. I'm about to embark on making some western boots. I know the throat has to be wide enough to allow the foot to enter. It seems this might conflict with the short heel.

Hopefully some of our boot makers can weight in on this.

For printing a single post, I suggest cut and paste into Wordpad (Windows), then print from there.

Hope this helps more than muddles.

- Rick