The Crispin Colloquy

All

Is there anyone here who still trimms with a knife and rasp, burnishes by hand? Al, I guess you do that with the colonial shoes. If anyone still does this, a nice set of fruitwood burnishing sticks and filling does a real pretty job on edging. They are easily made.
JesseLee

Thanks Rob,

That's what I did this weekend. I fiddled with a bunch of nuts and screws and learned a few things.

Thanks,

Mark

Rob,

Well, I can't figure out how you'd slow down a naumkeg--that's actually where I first started thinking along these lines. I would sand my shanks and heels with brand new 80 grit naumkeg papers and I'd get that nasty crust. And when I went to 100 grit, and 120 grit and 220 grit, it would only increase.

Now, for me, running through finer and finer grits, is almost mandatory. In fact, I used to take the old Norton naumkeg "cloths" and run them til they were near worn out then turn them inside out and use them as a canvas burnishing pad.

But in the finer grits and with the pad turned inside out it was necessary to wet the leather to burnish it. That's when I discovered that esp. in the final stages of sanding, wetting the leather allowed me to get rid of the crust.

It wasn't any geat leap of logic to go from there to trimming, especially since somewhere in one of the old books there is a passage that talks about wetting the edge of your sole as you are trimming it (even though they were trimming by hand)...seems like I remember something that went like "wet it, sweat it, and set it..." (refering to setting the wires and such with a hot iron).

But even more importantly I think a wet sole just trims nicer and cleaner and with less chance of a "catch."

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

Jesse,
Do you use the wood in stead of the heated burnishing irons or in addition to? Never seen a sole finished with a burnishing stick. (at least that I know of) Could you elaborate? I'm interested in learning about it.

Mark,
That's the best way to figure it out as long as you don't have to many leftover parts by the time your done. What better to do over the weekend than work on your tools and equipment.

DW,
You could slow down the naumkeg if your naumkeg is wired directly to an 110V outlet as many are and not tied into the 240V electronics of the machine. Get yourself a dimmer switch and you should be all set. If you look for them just after X-mas you can probably find a grounded one attached to an extension cord and get it dirt cheap. (the kind for the lights but rated for outdoors use)
Not that I think it will make a difference on the burning. The way I was taught; the naumkeg is to be used just for final smoothing, not grinding. That's an easy rule to violate, sometimes it so hard to get into tight spaces and the naumkeg does a great job.
To smooth with the naumkeg I use the center of the cone. If done correctly it will not leave any markings on leather like a regular belt will. If you use the edge to much it still leave half circle shaped markings.
Good idea to use them inside out as a canvas burnishing pad. It's just such a pain to change them out a lot.

Rob

Robert, DW

I did the below quote in case you forgot the question. First let me compliment DW on something I have done for years, an old school thing, and I am pleased that he knows of it.
Yes DW, wetting the sole edges gives you better hand cutting control, so easy and fast. I never would have guessed anyone would know that in this day and age... Well, that said, i guess being an old schooler, I am giving away all the 'mysteries'
To Robert now, that all said. I use a damp cloth to wet the edge of the soles, if very dense, i use poured (running) water. this allows the sole edge to cut nicely as DW pointed out. I use flour paste to fill the sole edge while burnishing it with either a metal or fruitwood shick. Depending again on density and leather thickness.
For the sole itself (complete bottom), I scrap (sand) it smooth. Again some water in the first prep and a iron burnisher, 'lightly' heater, and when it is dry, a 'light' coating of wax with a heared burnishing tool.
Now, this all will create interference with the sole edge, so it's back and forth from sole to edge.
And of course, when I do a fancy shank design, the shank of the sole is wetted to take the imprint. This all takes many hours, but the prettiness of it is worth it. Hope this helps. Pics soon at photobucket.
JesseLee

Jesse,
Do you use the wood in stead of the heated burnishing irons or in
addition to? Never seen a sole finished with a burnishing stick. (at
least that I know of) Could you elaborate? I'm interested in learning
about it.

I've seen reference to a "gimping machine" (Vass - Handmade Shoes for Men, pg 105). Does anyone know if this is this a dedicated machine or just a sewing machine attachment? Where can one get such a machine or attachment?

I've been using my mother's pinking shears (she won't mind, she's long gone). They actually work pretty well but the serrations are rather large and I have not seen shears with different teeth sizes. Apparently it's 'to pink or not to pink' in fabric land.

Rick:

If you go to the Tools of the Trade 'archives' (see the top of this page) there was a recent discussion in posts 500 - 525 on this topic. Also, if you go to posts 325 - 350, there is a picture of Janne Melkersson's gimping tool, which goes in lieu of a needle on a flatbed machine. Alas, the guy who made that one is retired, and his company no longer makes them. However, I should think they would not be too difficult to have one made -- I've discussed this with Dick Anderson but have not commissioned one (yet!).

There are also standalone pinking/gimping tools -- I've seen a beautiful one -- IIRC, with an electric motor --, with lots of attachments/wheels; it came from a shoemaking plant, but its owner hasn't wanted to part with it. There are also the various less expensive hand-cranked versions, including many by Singer available on e-bay, but I doubt these would cut leather, and it appears they make a pretty big triangle, since they were designed for fabric. Sometimes nicer ones come up, but I don't know how well they would work or the size of the 'cut.' They never seem to come with more than one cutting wheel.

If you come up with a solution, please let me know!

Perhaps you could could experiment with a variation of something I saw discussed here a while back. I believe it is Mr. Frommer's method of creating a chisel from a sewing machine needle (cutting it off short and grinding it to a point, to cut intricate patterns in leather on the sewing machine). You could use a sewing machine capable of sewing a zig-zag, and it might work...most domestic sewing machines have controls for altering the lengths and depths of the zig-zag. Just a thought. I have no idea if it would really work.

(Mark this as the first time I had a thought that I deemed worthy of contributing on this great forum!!)
Daphne

Tack question. Here is a picture of one of the tacks I have been using--4 oz. CSL Premium Nails. They are about 5/8" long. Do all tacks have that little skinny piece at the end?


I've had a problem a few times with the end of the tack breaking off and staying in the insole when I pull the tack out. Granted, I may have been pulling the tack out a little roughly. I was able to dig out most of the remnants, but am concerned there may be some left that I can't see that will eventually work their way up into the shoe.

My shoe finder only has 2 brands of tacks, this one and I think the other might be "Star," which doesn't have the right size.

Am I likely having a tack quality problem, or a tack pulling technique problem? Anyone know of a better brand of tacks, if it's a tack problem? Thanks!

Jenny

Jenny

Star 8/8 is what I prefer. The little point os for 2 purposed: 1- To set the tack. 2- They are used in sole repair originally and the ends will crimp in a 'U' shape when repairing on an iron last.

I use 'em for authentic Civil War and after to 1890
s repairs for the hard core historical bootmaker, and use 'em for lasting tacks.

Leave half the tack sticking up when lasting. To get a clean pull out, use your nail puller and the end of your pullers under it and the tack will lift straight out. With skill a box can last 10 years as you don't bend the tack and can reuse 'em. Hope this helps
JesseLee

Thanks, Jesse. The tacks that last you 10 years--do they have the little point? I am finding that most of the tacks come out with that little point damaged, so I've been throwing them out.

Where do you purchase your tacks? (Of course, if you bought them 10 years ago...might be hard to remember )

Jenny

I too use the same kind of lasting tack that you posted a photo of. I use them in five ounce and three ounce.

Jesse is following in a very old technique in using the longer, modern tacks and not driving them fully so that he can reuse them over and over.

I have some really "old school" lasting tacks that were used over and over the way Jesse is doing. In fact, an old time shoemaker maybe never had more than a handful of these which were straightened when damaged. I'll see if I can catch a photo of some of these for comparison, later today.

The points are very useful as Jesse mentioned and although they do sometimes break off I have never seen them cause a problem. I throw tacks with broken off points away. But it always seemed to me that some brands shed their tips easier than others.

I use Gurney (only Gurney) tacks and drive them solid. My reasoning is that it is the head of the tack, and the distributed pressure of the underside of the head of the tack that holds the leather. I do not want the leather pulling against the cut metal edges of the shank of the tack.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

Jennie,

Yeah, 3 and 5 oz. tacks. I'm usually happier with the Star brand (Sachs only carries Star and CSL).

My experience with them though is that once a tack is used, that little bur that helps them stay put until hammered in, usually bends or breaks making them more difficult to use. I discard them after a single use....

Occasionally I get a box that the tacks seam to be prone to breaking off mid-shank.

Erick

Erick, I found the Star 3 oz tacks were too short and I kept pounding my fingers as I held them in place. The Star 5 oz were quite long, but also were very fat, or at least too fat for my taste--figured they'd leave big holes in the insole, and since I use a lot of tacks, afraid the insole would end up looking like Swiss cheese . I may take another look at them, though, next time I'm at I. Sachs.

DW, if you drive the tacks in all the way so the head is against the insole, isn't it hard to pull them out? Sometimes I bend the tack on purpose (away from the feather edge) to hold the leather tighter to insole, if necessary. (Saw this on the Dennis Szabo tape, and perhaps on this board, too.) Where do you get the Gurney tacks? Thanks.

Jenny

I use a tack puller to get them out and yes, sometimes it is hard. If the tip or point breaks off it will generally break off deep in the last and not in the insole, in most instances--I've never actually seen one do that.

I've used Star and Cross and Kleen-Kut and I prefer Gurney above them all. Yes, the Stars do tend to be crude, in my opinion. But it's all relative...if you like 'em, you like 'em. I get mine directly from Gurney. I salvage about 40-60% of my tacks and re-use them, sometimes three times.

But Jenny, if you are bending your tacks, you might want to consider going to inch and a quarter, 18 gauge brads. I've even seen these called "lasting nails." Hardware stores will sell small boxes but you can also buy direct from Holland Manufacturing. I once saw a whloe keg of these and bought a couple of pounds but I wish I had offered to buy the whole keg because they were really cheap. The Germans use these almost exclusively when lasting and you may see them being used in the book Handmade Shoes for Men. I use them a lot and they are meant to be driven in about an inch and then bent over.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

All,

Here are three 18th century lasting tacks. Hand forged. According to my source these would have been used over and over again and I believe they would have been driven all the way to the head...which then would have stood proud in order to ease extraction. Hand forged in Colonial Williamsburg.


Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

proxy posting for Al Saguto...

"Tingle(s)"(USA)--strictly, the tiniest (1/8" to 3/8" long) of clinching, wire-point, Hand Tacks, used c.1890 and post to rivet the lasting-margin of the uppers to the insole, especially in the heel-seat of Goodyear-welted factory work, and multiple uses in shoe-repair shops. NB--very different from "lasting tacks". I've heard the term "tingles" used before the 1900s, and no idea how the term go applied to lasting tacks here on the Forum--this is the first I've heard of it.

The re-useable hand-forged "tacks"/"lasting tacks" (AKA "tax" ) with cuboid heads were best depicted, first, in Randle Holme (1688), and I think the
latest depiction was in Hasluck, 'Bootmaking & Mending', Leno, or one of the very late 19thc. English manuals. The change to bent-over long wire brads is shown in Golding, so the transition from the reusable to the disposable tacks was c.1900-20(?) in the UK. In the USA, no idea. I've seen all sort of unorthodox tacks and nails used for lasting. Shoemakers' "tax" are mentioned in inventories and other literary sources much earlier, but we have no illustrations of what they looked like (SEE Marc Carlson's website). Special nippers were used 18thc and onward, with smooth, flat, squared-off jaws, like end-cutters only non-cutting, to grip the cube head and pull them out undamaged and un-bent.

Peter N. Sprengel, in his German book of trades 1770s), under nail-making, described them as made of "Swedes", or soft malleable iron, presumably so
they could be re-straightened after getting bent in use. Garsault, (1767) described three types and sizes: the shortest, "single head"/"lasting tacks" (no chiseled line around the cube) for lasting uppers; longer "blocking tacks" with a "double-head" (one chiseled line around the cube) for blocking insoles and outer soles, and the longest, "triple head"/"heel nail" (two chiseled lines) to hold women's wooden heels on before sewing them inside their covers. Garsault said the chiseled line(s) around the heads were to give you a better grip while pulling them out, so the were presumably extracted by the head, not pried-out by the shank, which requires the suitable nippers, as opposed to forked tack-lifters/nail-pullers, which will tear them up. We grip the head, twist, and pluck them right out.

We revived these re-usable lasting tacks in 1990, and a workman can get by with maybe 50 of them, which last (no pun intended) for 2-3 years with
occasional re-straightening. The only draw-back is, because the heads stick up, they tend to scratch the hell out of your sewing awl haft when welt sewing, and the thread can get caught and snag on them since they stick up above the work.

The ones DW shows here were made by Colonial Williamsburg's blacksmiths. Ours are copied from 3 in the Northampton Central Museum & Art Gallery
collection, received with a shoe bench from Honnington, Warwickshire, from a firm that went in business c.1715. The Bata Shoe Museum in Toronto has a few from Continental Europe(?), as do shoe museums in Europe, and I've even managed to collect 8 or 10 in the USA. By the mid-late 19thc. the technology changed for making these tacks, from hand-forged one at a time, to cast or formed somehow. I think you'll find them still offered in the early George Barnsley & Sons catalogue (c.1900?).

For my "modern" work at home, I prefer #5 to #8 D.B. Gurney hand-tacks, depending on the weight of the work. I drive them in not quite all the way,
as I use the tack-lifter "fork" on the end of the lasting pincers to pop them out as I welt-sew. I've tried the bent-over, wire brads others have
mentioned, a la Golding, but I never learned to love them, as they are finicky to drive (so long and slender they bend before you want them to);
they tend to swivel around out of position, and they catch and snag the threads.

D. B. Gurney is happy to sell direct, over the phone, with a credit card. And, their hand tacks can be ordered with either slim or heavier wire
points. I like the heavier points myself. Their fine points (and the Star brand), I've found will clinch on rock-maple lasts, rather than pierce into them...that's a pain.

Al,

As always good info...but dern!! I don't think I ever heard the word "tingle" til I met you. How I got the term all mixed up with lasting tacks...I don't know. My apologies to all. I may have to go and edit those messages so that future generations will not be confused.

I didn't know Gurney sold their tacks in slim or heavy...is that how they designate them? I mean how would you order the slim versus the heavy point?

I have to agree about the brads...I use them a lot but seldom for actually lasting. Usually I use them to anchor the insole to the last--that way I am less likely to accidentally miss one (because a tack is sort of small) when I bottom the boot. And if I do, they might be a lot easier to remove from inside the boot, although I have never had to actually try that.

When I have used them for lasting, I've found that if I drive the brad in at an angle, then when I bend the brad it will pull the leather a little--tightening the draft a tiny bit. Whether that extra pull, repeated at close intervals around the toe or in the shank, would make a significant difference...I don't know.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

DW,

First, a typo...I meant to say "I've *never* heard....", not "I've heard...."

Without file-diving, seems I first recall hearing the term "tingles" by shoerepair guys, for those tiny clinching hand-tacks in the 1970s--that's what you asked for from the finders when you went to buy them anyhoo. If it's not a huge project, yes, please change the refs. from "tingles" to "tacks", or "lasting tacks", etc. Thanks.

Gurney will do *hand tacks* with thin or heavy wire points, but I'm not sure about any of their other tack types. Just ask for the heavy points. Star brand are notoriously bendy, and clinch on wood and plastic lasts! Kleen-Kut is out of business I think, but they weren't too bad in that regard.

I gave up on the wire brads myself altogether, but with the #8 hand tacks, particularly around the toe, I bend them inward for added pull by tapping
with the pane of the hammer after I've got them all in, but before I "brace" the toe (add that strip of scrap leather over the wrinkles to force them flatter). The hammer pane is great for that, as well as beating-out wrinkles and forcing the lasting margin down tight to the feather. In fact, I've taken to primarily shaping my feather, damp, with the hammer pane, more than paring away leather to achieve the slope. This keeps more substance around the feather, compacts/hardens it so it's less likely to curl in wear, and is, frankly, faster and easier than carefully paring, paring, and more pairing, then "oops...I took off too much."

Al,

Glad we have guys like you here. Your knowlege base is truly incredible.

This business with "tingles" puzzles me because I never ordered tiny lasting tacks by that name (or any other name but "lasting tacks" ) and I use lasting tacks all the way down to half ounce. I just don't know where I picked up the term or why I have a little printed label under the 18th C. lasting tacks that identify them as "tingles." I put that label on there right after I got them. [sigh] It's a conundrum we may never solve.

But, admittedly, I get kind of tickled by some of the older, traditional lexicon. I wouldn't mind it a bit if a good portion was revived and came back into popular usage, at least among bespoke makers. And why not? It's better, in my mind, to use the term "coad" to designate a specific substance we use for making up waxed ends than to just refer to it as "wax"--there's got to be at least three commonly used substances, in shoe shops, that fall under the category of "wax."

But what do I know? Maybe it's like communicating in grunts...you have to be tuned into the nuances of pitch.

But someone ought to do a "dictionary" or something because even among you "history wonks" there seems to be some controversy...as we've seen here on occasion.


Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

Here's a tingle reference, 1888:
"... so much talent as was then shown in the craft should have been suddenly eclipsed and almost stamped out by the inroad of those twin abominations, rivets and tingles, which, in time, will, no doubt, give way to some less objectionable substitute."

from Last fitting and pattern cutting. Alfred Hannibal, 3rd ed. 1888. page 50.

regards Dai

DW,

Thanks. Glad my hoary history-weenie angle was appreciated.

I prefer old (contemporary) terms too, they're part of preservation and we kinda have to use them around the shop to communicate, however, "coad", and other really ancient ones, like "lingels" for "waxed ends", and "intercucular" [sp?] for welts (Roman/Latin] make the bulk of the surviving historical texts we use (more) obscure. The texts we have date mostly from c.late 1600s through the early 20thc., and they all use just "wax" and "waxed ends". After hot-wax stitchers appear, our wax gets called "hand-wax" to distinguish it. If we casually re-translate "wax" into "coad", and "waxed ends" into "lingels", then we move a step away--not closer to--using the lingua vulga that became standardized English within the trade in the last 400 years. Rees, Devlin, and the other "Dead Guys" we consult are silent on "coad:" and "lingels" (though the latter can be found in certain shoe-related lexicons in the 16th-17thc. as regional dialect).

Take a newcomer to the trade, or a casual reader here, they're goin' to really wonder what's up with this if they get a Rees reprint, and find no
"coad"

Of course we use a variety of waxes and wax-like substances in boot & shoemaking today, and just saying "wax" might seem a little imprecise to us;
however go back to the primary sources--with the exception of "wax(ed) calf", I can't think of anywhere the term "wax" was used not in conjunction with the sticky stuff rubbed on the thread. Occasionally "yellow" or "bees" wax was mentioned (as such), but otherwise the only "wax" is "wax", (AKA "coad" in Middle English). Beeswax and rosin, pounded (not melted together) with white lead, went by the English names "machine", "masheen", "mashin"[sp?], or "white wax" (cire blanc en French), in the 18thc. because it was literally mashed together, but that's the only other kind of wax I can think of. Now if one were reviving Medieval shoemaking, or recovering/recreating a lexicon of Medieval shoemakers' terms, "coad", as well as "lingels" are a must. Or to look at it another way: imagine a character in a Charles Dickens tale intermingling words not heard since Chaucer's day. Not only would nobody much comprehend him/her, but it would be incongruous and out of keeping with the time period.

An historical dictionary with definitions of all English shoe terms, divided by periods and origins (Latin, German, French, etc.), would be a antastic
reference work, and the glossary Marc Carlson has up on his website brings us mighty close on the oldest terms. The glossary at the back of my 'Art of the Shoenaker' (forthcoming in 2007-8 at last!) recaptures the shoemakers' lingo of the 17thc-early 19thc. as well as I could. June Swann is busying her self with a comprehensive dictionary of shoe fashions, and terms, which I hope to see in print eventually. In other words, work on this is progressing step by step.

Al,

I take your point and will henceforth refrain from such obscure usage...but not without a passing comment...your remark about a newcomer wondering what's up cuts both ways.

Suppose a newcomer to the Trade, were to come on this board and read about "wax" or waxing thread. Without a recipe (which, correct me if I'm wrong Rees doesn't supply either--least-wise I can't readily find it in my reprint) how does that newcomer know what is being talked about? Candlewax?--which the newcomer is all too familiar with...Paraffin?--who among us doesn't have some chokecherry jelly sitting around the shop? Beeswax (very common in repair and "craft" situations)? No one just getting into this business has any clue that hand wax is anything specific or different from what they know from common experience.

Same with thread to some extent, does it mean mercerized cotton thread? Artificial sinew? Size 46 bonded nylon? Or more likely...and as some have previously assumed right here in River City...prepackaged linen stitcher thread? Who would know we are referring to an obscure construct of nearly impossible to find linen yarn?

It's a problem...the thing that has always struck me, is that here we have a whole lexicon of terms that are seemingly quite specific and yet we refuse, or hesitate, to use them. It seems our lingua vulga is being reduced to nuanced grunts, at times. Maybe it only seems that way here in the dusty, upper left-hand corner.

Congratulations on your forthcoming book, BTW. I know you have worked plenty hard on this. It has been, what?, five years? I imagine you are excited...I know I am.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

David,

Great find. Thanks. From Hannibal's context, it sounds like "tingles" were the same tiny little rivets I was thinking of. They are foul, as any ferrous nails, etc., left in a boot or shoe, especially with oak-bark or veg-tanned bottom leathers. They hold alright, but they rust, and gall out the leather in time, turning it black and crumbly. Nothing sadder than seeing an otherwise venerable old boot with the heel black and falling off prematurely in chunks from the use of "cut bills" or those square-section iron nails driven around the top-piece to prevent wear. Or others, with nailed heel-seats (*shudder*), where the insole has crumbled away inside the boot from the "tingles" used to last the back-part.

I'm with Hannibal on that. You'd think the seat-nailing machines, or lasting machines could have been improved to at least use brass "tingles". I have seen some 20thc. work where fiber pegs were used instead, which at least gets the nasty iron out of the shoe.

DW, Al, et all

Geez, when I first started, I was taught to not use lasting tacks. I would pull (last) the boot and peg the upper to the innersole. That wears a thumb out real fast. Mine had a calous inside a year.
I still have some 19th century nails used fr lasting, given me later, hand forger iron nails. They are kinda rusty now, any advice for cleaning 'em up?
Hey DW where can I get a hundred or so of them pretty hand forged tacks? I love the look of 'em.
Jesse