Looking for...

[jon_g]

I use a grinder to do the roughest part of shaping the blade, next a Japanese water stone which gives me the edge and finally a handheld stone that I bought in Budapest for honing. This is likely what Nasser bought, (and yes it is similar to the stone that Tony used only it's ceramic not stone). The honing stone is great, it hones but doesn't degrade your edge the way jewellers rouge does, I rarely have to take my knife to the grinder or water stone and it only takes a second to hone it this way.

As for straight vs curved I use both, curved for most bottoming tasks as well as skiving and straight for clicking (a narrow blade) and sometimes for trimming heels (a wider blade).

[kemosabi]

For what it's worth; I prefer a straight edge skiving knife.

Also; I spent my whole life so far with Arkansas stones. Just in the last year, I bought a Japanese water stone (1200 grit) and in my opinion it's great for normal tasks around the shop. It lives in a bucket of water so it's always ready to go... pull it out, place it on a old towel and go to work. I also have a spray bottle of water handy to wet the surface if needed.

3M paper does work really well and probably is the only way to guarantee absolute flatness (when used on glass etc.)

Still, I prefer the velvet feel of a good stone... Oil or water.

Cheers,
-Nat

[dearbone]

Jon,

About this hand held stone you bought in Budapest,A white ceramic hand held stone, like the one i bought,not the same natural stone Tony had,only in shape,His is way finer and of natural stone color,the ceramic ones i suspect to be synthetics,man-made in another word useless in my opinion and very rough,it dulled my knives when i tried to sharpen with it.

Nasser

[jon_g]

I don't know what to say, I love mine, if you ever want to part with it, contact me

I will say however that I dulled my knives at first too and it took a little while before I had it working properly, now every few cuts I give my knife a few swipes on the stone and it stays nice and sharp.

[dearbone]

Jon,

I usually say what i think to be a fact according to my thinking,i noticed some rough on the surface of the stone and sharpen with it,but if you say it is a finer grit beneath the rough on the top,in the long time,that maybe true as i have noticed the more i use the stone the finer it get,but still that is not good enough yet,Do you skive by hand?

Nasser

[jon_g]

Exactly, that roughness is gone before too long and you will get the results you are looking for.

And yes, I skive by hand and don't have an edge trimmer or finisher to grind edges, very handmade. One day I will invest in a finisher to save some time but they're few and far between in my neck of the woods.

[dearbone]

Jon,

Thank you,That's good news,I am glad i brought it up,I have been sharpening some old knives with it and the stone is getting smoother and starting to produce sharp edges,it needs a little more work but it is going in the right direction,I like the shape of this stone,somehow i can get sharper edge with this type stones than the flat ones.

Nasser

[dw]

All this is really a great discussion...I know I've learned quite a bit. I want to thank everyone who is contributing...sharpening knives is the single most important skill that maker can have IMO.

Jon and Nasser, have either of you ever seen or used a black Arkansas? How does the round stone, you're talking about, compare?

I have what appears to be a "clay" stone...it is very old, reddish brown, flat, rectangular and very fine textured. I've never seen anything like it before. Anyone know what it might be and how it would be used?

So...if I'm reading right, emery paper on glass would be a quick and dirty substitute for a water stone. But you don't use water with emery paper, do you?

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[dw]

PS...for what it's worth, I have curved knives, and like them. But since I skive on a curved surface, flat knives work just as well as a curved knife on a flat surface.

No harm, no foul.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[dearbone]

DW,

I never heard of the black Arkansas until you mentioned it,is it a flat stone? shoot us a picture of your clay stone please,I use emery cloth dry and hone it on rouge covered strap,Curved knives are hard to sharpen on flat stones but can be easily sharpen with round stone,I also skive with flat knife.

Here is a picture of the so called round stone Jon and i talking about.

13581.jpg

Nasser

[dw]

Nasser,

Where do you get such a stone?

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[dearbone]

DW,

I bought on line from Cordwainerstool,out of Budapest,the seller is info@koronya.com. The cost is $20.00 for the stone and $30.00 for shipping,OK now i want a free stone for promotion.

Nasser

[janne_melkersson]

DW
I wish they have translated it to Englsih.

Sometimes the diamond side is not needed to be used. You simply straighten the edge of the knife with the metal handle as you do with the back of the Tina knife when straighten out a scraper. But if the diamond need to be used I am careful with it following the same angle with a couple of circular movements.

Then comes the magic which is the leather strap covered with the same polish as you put on cars to get shiny. But don't turn the knife over the edge it must be turned over the back.

Doing this until the edge is shiny and the knife should be razor sharp. Well, not all the time but many times. I am using the leather strap probably 100 times during the making of a pair and the diamond stone probably not more the 2-3- times.

Hope this helps

[tomo]

DW,
You reminded me. Although I haven't tried one, I was told by an ol' boy that you can use the unglazed red clay pots that people grow plants in. These are fairly fine and they would be quite soft too.
T.

[dearbone]

To all interested in natural sharpening stones,there are a couple of pictures of one in handmade shoes for men page 96-97 sitting on the table left of the clicker,That one is hard to find.

Nasser

[amuckart]

DW,

I use 'wet-n-dry' paper, commonly used in automotive finishing, which I think is a silicon carbide abrasive rather than emery. It ranges from 120 right up to 2000 grit and higher. I use baby oil as a lubricant/swarf suspension, but water works as well.

I normally start with 800 if I'm working on a damaged edge that's just shy of needing a complete re-grinding, or 1200 otherwise, then go up in 2 or 400 grit increments to 2000, then hone on a wood-backed leather strop charged with green low-speed polishing compound. The 0.5 micron 3m sheet abrasives are a better honing surface still.

It's 'quick and dirty' in the literal sense, but I don't think it's a second-rate substitute for water stones in terms of the edge that you end up with and it's certainly far cheaper and easier to maintain a flat surface than with water stones.

[tomo]

Morning Alasdair,
Interesting, I don't use oil at all on my stones certainly not engine oil which is designed to reduce friction and wear on metal. This is counterproductive to our purpose.
I use diluted (30% +/- doesn't matter how much at the end of the day) dishwashing detergent which helps keep the pores of the stone free from glogging.
I do use a board such as your's but usually with Iron Oxide which is the black one. But I'd use green or red too if it's there.
The other side of the board has emery cloth on it, which doesn't seem to last as long as it use to BTW. Maybe I should try and get the 3M (?) one I think Nat uses.
Best,
T.

[amuckart]

Mornin' Tom.

I don't use stones much at all these days, I either use ceramic sticks, a belt grinder, or abrasive on glass so I can't really talk to using oil on stones.

With the abrasive on glass the oil is just there to pick up the swarf and hold it in suspension. So long as the grit is sharp it won't stop the cutting action.

The only reason I use green is because it's what I could find in low speed compounds. It seems to work Ok. I haven't tried the red. Autosol works pretty well too.

I think I know the boards you mean, did you buy yours? I just stuck some leather to a bit of wood. I've never seen one of the commercial ones with fine enough abrasive paper on it. They're all about 300 grit at most, which is way too coarse to go straight to honing from.

[dw]

I use a gray steel cutting rouge. Have used both green and red but tried the gray some years ago and thought it was good.

Alaidair, Tom,

You two fellers ought to think about attending AGM this year. It's gonna be in Oregon and as close as you're gonna get.


Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[tomo]

Working on it DW!

Alasdair, I just made mine. Well I made one but an old junky that I knew gave me the other one, he had trmendous talent as a custom shoe designer and maker, unfortunately he died last year [img]http://www.thehcc.org/forum/images/old_smilies/sad.gif"%20ALT="sad[/img]. I have some of his stuff, which has the magic in it.

Coarse emery cloth one side leather/Iron Oxide the other. You strop on the emery leading with the cutting edge, then use the other side leading with the back of the knife. I can shave the hairs on the back of my arm in a few seconds. Probably use the fine side more often then the emery maybe 1:10.
T.

[holly]

I am looking for a reliable source for properly cut and split stiffeners - men's heel counters and toe boxes. (Yes, I know I will still have to skive them). Someone who had the right leather and equipment could totally help me out here, and I would make it worth your while. If this "someone" sounds like you, please contact me with your terms.
Thanks.

[erickgeer]

Holly,

I used to get them clicked for my students by Twin Leather Sales in MA - he has a few counter die shapes, so it might be a little trial and error to get the shape you want. I think the ones I liked best were either 4 or 5oz. belly, sanded.

Personally, I just cut my own from double shoulders I get from Weaver Leather - they seem pretty consistently gauged.

Erick

[holly]

Erick,
Thanks for the info, I will check them out. However, my best case scenario would be to be start from something heavier (i.e. 7/8 oz shoulder) that was then split down to around 4 oz. That is what I am accustomed to doing (and hating!) by hand.

[dw]

I don't know if this applies across the board, but Skip Horween told me that when a hide/side is split after tanning it loses more strength than if it were split before tanning or in the crust or whatever...I wasn't clear about the alternative.

But "dry-splitting" can significantly weaken a piece of leather...maybe more than just the substance taken off. In other words, if you dry split a 4 ounce piece of leather to 2 ounce you may lose more than 50% of the original strength.

When we speak of double shoulders or vegetable tanned leathers for insoles it is probably commonplace to split them. I do it myself. But Horween produces primarily vegetable tannages and vegetable retans so I'd have to assume that Skip's warning also applies to double shoulders.

Just something to think about...

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[holly]

OK, well, I'm never surprised when reality spoils my otherwise brilliant schemes...However, this leads me to more questions.
Why couldn't it be wet-split or mellow-split? (I know nothing here).
I guess I should rephrase my original question. I know the "right" way (excuse me, A right way) to do this thing - to hand skive the hard, fat stuff down to what I need. However, that is time-prohibitive and frustration-prohibitive for me at this point. I would like to try something, anything, as a second-best alternative.
I get that I'm not the first person to have this issue, and if there was something that worked, it would have been found by now. But, I am stubborn and a fool, so here I am.
I will try the 4/5 oz belly and see how that works for me. If I get any other suggestions, I will try them as well, and can report back if anyone is interested.
Thanks.