"The Art and Mysterie..."

[marc]

Duncan - sorry for the delay in getting back here - I've been off line all week. As soon as I can get the pictures developed, I'll put up a picture of the one I spent last week making

Nope, no heel stiffener - although one wouldn't have been out of the question.

Marc

[dmcharg]

Marc,
No delay as far as I'm concerned. The best net frequency I can do is once a week, the worst, every 1 or 2 months!

I've made far more shoes without heel stiffeners than with,generally without detriment.

Looking forward to the next pics.

Cheers
Duncan

[tommick]

Others were so brave as to share their progress learning how to make footwear on this forum so I figured that maybe it's time I did too.

Here's the rt. boot of my first pair of full cuts. This is the eight pair of boots that I've made(8 pairs total and the first pair went in the trash and the second pair didn't come close to fitting )and I sure have lots to learn.

4038.jpg

I usually try to make the left and right at the same time but this time I was so unsure of how this was going to come out that I just did the right boot first. The left hasn't even been lasted yet. Sorry about the poor quality pic - the boot color isn't actually blochy in real life.

Crimping was a real challenge and I used pretty poor leather so that didn't help either.

I have to learn so much more to get to the level that I want to be at that I have to remind myself to look at the trees and forget the forest sometimes.

Here's what's irking me most about what I don't know right now:
When the boot is inside out and I flatten the sideseams I end up elongating the leather at the sideseam which causes the topline to stick up at the sideseams. How do I fix/stop this?

I really don't know at all how to finish the sole bottom - do I treat it like the heel?

After I shape, sand and burnish the heel I dye it and it looks pretty good and very smooth but then when I ink it and that dries then it's not so smooth anymore. I don't have good burnishing wheels on my finisher so I don't use them after inking. I just use a horsehair brush and the smoothness of the finish is never as nice as right before I ink.

Finally, can I borrow someones brain so I can conquer my Landis L?

I have a 1000 other questions but I'll stop with these. This is a great forum and thanks to all.

Warmest Regards, Tom

[dw]

Tom,

First off welcome to the club! A very exclusive and demanding club it is too. Not many have the pure grit to work their way through all the problems and challenges that the Full Wellington presents us with. Making one pair (or even two or three) and calling it good, don't get it. Anyone can get lucky but without a standard (or a body of failures and near misses--experience, in other words) to compare it to, you don't have any way to realistically measure your sucess or progress. It isn't til you decide to make these regular that you even begin to refine your standards of fit and appearance--what's acceptable and what's not.

I don't know how you are flattening your sideseam but I doubt seriously that it's the flattening that's the problem. If your boot is lined, you have six layers of leather and a lot of thread to prevent elongation. More likely, you just need to think about how you cut your tops. The topline needs to be at a 90* angle from the side for at least an inch going toward the center. Sometimes this is very inconvenient and you have to use a french curve to fudge the rest of the topline so that it looks straight and/or good from the front. But if the corners...there at the junction of the topline and the side...are perpendicular to each other, then when the boots are turned you'll get a flat edge all the way across the sideseam (and no 'peaking')--a must if you are intending a bound top. Or even a beaded top with an internal pull.

If you don't have a burnishing wheel you may need to get yourself a small piece of canvas and wrap it around your forefinger and burnish by hand. The brush isn't gonna do it and neither is not burnishing. The burnishing ink has water in it and that will raise the "grain" every time.

As far as the sole is concerned...here's a challenge for you (as if you needed one) try not to mar the sole in any way during bottoming. Then the finishing off of the sole will be a snap. In lieu of that, naumkeg to 120 or even 180. Wet the sole, let sit for a bit and burnish with a worn out naumkeg "paper" made of cloth. Stain and polish with Johnson's Floor wax.

Just some ideas...

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[tommick]

Here's another quick question regarding full cuts. I placed the leather heel stiffener in the pocket between the lining and rear panel. I skived the edges of the stiffener to paper thin and everything seems to have worked out well. I lasted the boot and after dry peeled open the pocket and tried to get some all purpose cement between the stiffener and rear panel.

BUT, I'm uncomfortable with this construction. I think that I'd rather stitch the stiffener to the lining with the stiffener against the wearer's heel and then attach the lining/stiffener assembly to the rear panel.

What's the "right", "best", most durable way to do this part of the construction?

Thanks, Tom M.

[dw]

Tom,

There may be no "best" way. The most durable is to sew the counter in just like on a dress wellington. The stitching goes through to the outside of the back. This is the way it was done historically although they didn't use liners. But it can be done the same way with or without a liner.

Personally, I don't like to see that line of stitching breaking up the clean lines of the back so I stitch the counter to the lining and rely on the thickness and the rigidity of the heel stiffener...plus all purpose cement [img]http://www.thehcc.org/forum/images/old_smilies/proud.gif"%20ALT=":O[/img] ...to keep it from collapsing. Never had a problem yet.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[tommick]

DW, I agree with you, there is no way that I'm going to all the work to make such a cool looking boot and then have stitching on the outside around the counter.

Next pair I'm stitching the counter to the lining. This will lock everything in place for lasting so this is probably the best way.

Thanks for your help both off and on this forum getting me through the first pair.

I'm getting addicted to full cuts and I'm wondering if any historians on this forum can give us further information on the history. Or maybe it just doesn't exist!

[paul]

Tom, First I have to say, I don't know how I missed your posts, last May. Busy and self centered, I guess. Welcome.

By now we both have been to DW's "school room", and sat at his side seeing it done.
You're one up on me in that you've made a few pair of full cuts by now. But I'll catch up with you. Great looking boot in the picture you posted. The left is probably done by now too, I'd suppose.

Lisa, a belated Happy Birthday! Have you been workin' the book you got for your early birthday present yet? Be sure to post your experiences, also, ok?

ANyway, so here's my first crimp on the easy boards.

4601.jpg

I used Corral Golden Oak calf lining, recommended previously, by DW. The Naturelle is 'no mas', for now, I'm told.

These are Dick's boards, I'll be using, and they came with edged corners. (Is the word cambered?) I glued and tacked on a soling leather tack strip, and trimmed the edges. But when I tacked the blocker on, I was working with just about a 5/8" surface to which to tack. A little scant. But I did it. And my German pinchers worked well, pulling over the opposite edge. So maybe that's the trade off. No complaints Dick.

If I can get to it today, I'll be transfering this one to the "cruel" board and putting the other blocker on this. I have a "set" of easy, cruel and back boards, but just one each. So, Full Wellington's will just be a little more ceremonious than I'm accustomed to. This'll be good.

PK

[tommick]

Paul, thanks for an update on your full welly progress. I'm really enamored with this type of boot. I'm going to try another pair soon, this one for my wife. I completed my first pair before I went to D.W.'s seminar (I took D.W.'s basic seminar - not full welly seminar) and I'm pretty sure that if I can crimp the leather properly then I can get a pretty nice boot made.

As you know, lots of lights go on when you sit with D.W. and work on boots for a few weeks. Just wish I could wield a lip knife like he does! I'm pretty sure he cheats somehow but just haven't caught him yet!

I also only have one set of F/W boards but I went and crimped up several linings awhile back and my goal is to always have one set of linings waiting in the wings (the key word here is goal). My blocker was pretty good but didn't match the boards too well so I have to work on that next time.

I look forward to seeing more posts on your progress, thanks.

Tom Mickel

[tomo]

Hey Paul they look good.

Are the boards only 5/8" thick?
Was the chamfered edge (sometimes it's called an arris too, well the part you remove is) along the back edge of the boards and is this where you stuck the soling leather.

Is that another piece of the lining glued/sewn to the edge of the lining ie the part that the screws have got their teeth into? Do you not do both linings at the same time or does this not work with the FW?

More power to y'awl
T.

[paul]

Tom,

There is an undeniable charm about the Full Wellington, isn't there. And, I'm sure, it's the challenge that holds the appeal for making. I wish I could call all my customers in que, and change them all over to full cuts, so I'd get lots of practice. I like your plan to pre-crimp linings. "And be grateful for the practice", as DW says. This is such a more time consuming construction, at least in the crimping part, that I'll probably always have a pair in the works my self.

Other Tom,

No the boards are 1" thick. The chamfered edge is along the back, and that is where I put the soling leather strip. It was after beveling the soling leather strip, that it came to about 5/8".

That extra reinforcement strip illustrates DW's genius. There's so much stress along the edge there during crimping, that it prevents tearing.

FW linings are crimpted just one at a time. I'm sure doing both, like on a dress wellington, would be nigh unto impossibe.

I got the liner on the cruel board yesterday, and it's drying as we spaek.

That's one advantage we have here in Arizona. Leather drys as you're putting it up. It was 12% humidity one day last week. Right now at 5 AM it's 30%. So leather drys pretty dang fast!

Back to practicin',

PK

[dw]

Hope you fellers don't mind me kibbitzing here...(I am like the Maytag repairman...so glad for the company and commentary about my favourite style of boot.

When you really get to studying tacks...lasting tacks...(and that's what I use to mount a blocker on the boards), it quickly becomes apparent that tacks do not hold by virtue of their presence in the leather alone. In other words, just because you hammer 'em in, doesn't mean you can rely on them. This is especially true in situations where 1) the leather is thin...such as with the 3 ounce veg cow or the 3 oz. yellow calf; and 2) where there is a great deal of stress. Lasting tacks in particular have a "cut" shank (for lack of a better term) and because the edges of that shank are sharp, leather under stress will tear around it.

Lasting tacks hold more by virtue of the head than the shank. The downward, distributed pressure of the head acts like a clamp to hold the leather to the underlying surface. And I think this is what was originally intended...after all, the head is not there for esthetic purposes.

When I first started trying to crimp thin veg linings (they said it couldn't be done) I had a heck of a time with the leather tearing around the tack. So I started using small, four ounce leather discs ("washers" ) and driving a longer tack through the disc before driving it through the lining. This practice allowed me to seat the head of the tack hard without damaging the lining and the pressure of the head was spread out over a somewhat larger area than with the head of the tack alone.

The reinforcing strips that I use on all FW front blockers--lining and tops--originally evolved as much as a continuous washer as a reinforcement for the edge. However!! There are plenty of times when that strip has been the difference between getting a blocker on the boards and not. Not only does it reinforce the edge against tearing stresses introduced by virtue of the whole process, it also cushions the edge against damage by the lasting pincer...or at least it mitigates that damage --sharp teeth and a hard pull.

Additionally, I reinforce the corner of the blocker by sandwiching a strip of nylon tape in-between the lining and the reinforcing strip, as well. This ameliorates the stresses that build up right there and on either side of the crimping screw--probably the most likely area to rip, especially with thin leathers, if blocking stresses aren't distributed evenly (something that depends as much on the leather itself as actual crimping procedures).

But believe me Paul, no genius was involved...just desperation.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[paul]

DW,

Whatever the source, you have access to the well, my friend. I know you chew on a deal until you work it out. Your obsession shows. And we all benefit from it.

I think the act of teaching has fed your need to have a reason and a why for what you do. ANd we all benefit from it.

ANyway, I didn't put reinforcing tape in the corners of this calf. I will for the beaumont retan, though. Thanks for the reminder.

Keep 'em comin',

PK

[tommick]

DW and Paul,

In my "vast" experience of making one pair of Full Cuts I didn't put the reinforcing strip in at all because I didn't know to do that at the time. Instead, and this will really drive you crazy, I got the blocker pretty tight on the board and then put it in a large plastic bag and came back the next day and lots of the stress was gone and I finished the task pretty easily. I hate to admit that I kind of gave up on the first day and had to leave it for awhile.

I did this again on the second blocker (remember I only have one set of boards) and this time it was even more challenging. But after I completed the day 2 crimping job, I discovered that I had mixed up my boards and was using the "cruel" board to start with. I was so intent on the crimping task that I didn't even notice my mistake in switching out the boards!

SOOOO, I'm wondering if I can get away with this again. Jump right to the cruel board and do a partial crimp and then let the leather relax overnight and then finish the next day.

My gut feeling is that it depends on the leather. I think that I got lucky once.

One major thing that I learned from DW (thanks DW) is that you are not just stretching the leather over the board but rather you are coaxing it to form. This is subtle but so important. You have to form the leather not just try to force it by stretching it onto the board. It seems that by taking a little extra time and working the leather that you can tell where the stresses are and carefully work the leather in those areas and minimize potential ripping.

Regards, Tom Mickel

[tomo]

Tom (Mickel)
Was your lining leather veg tanned? You cased it by putting it in plastic which would really mellow it up, but this wouldn't usually be as effective on chrome tanned leather.

DW, I thought tacks with bigger heads were for jokers like me with bad aim

More power to y'awl.
T.

[dw]

Well, I've not had enough experience doing that to comment, really. I tried that once and it didn't help much in my estimation. To the contrary, I know I'm going against the grain and common wisdom here but when it comes to crimping, I can't say that "casing" (or tempering) helps much at all. In fact, I like to try to put my blockers on the boards just about as soon after I pull them from the water as I can.

I think that choice of leathers has a lot to do with difficulty. Chromes are much harder to to crimp clean (with a few exceptions) than veg tans...and it's not so much the tannage as the finish....although it is undeniable that a veg tan will take a shape easier and more readily than a chrome.

But more importantly I think, is understanding what is going on and what is needed. There is a sequence of drafts...that can, and often must, be ignored or deviated from...that work most of the time. And it begins with ensuring that the edges of the blocker are stretched about as far as they can go before releasing everything and then going back and beginning to take out the excess in the break and over the forepart. But every pair of drafts taken foreshortens the edge and if you reach a point where you are, say, four inches from the corner iron and haven't gotten most if not all of the major pipes out...and don't have any realistic hope of drafting them out...you'll rip the blocker no matter how well it is reinforced before you get the slack out.

And just to illustrate the point, there are leathers (and circumstances) when you can very nearly tighten the corner iron, after having secured the top line and the toe, and move all pipes off the edge of the board with just the iron and a long stick alone. At that point, and when it happens like that, you can simply take a pair of drafts under the "instep" and hang the board up--it will be smooth as if the leather had been painted on. Fundamentally this is the approach I use on the "cruel" boards. That's why there's that extra notch/socket under the forepart.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[tommick]

Tom and DW,

I made my first pair of Full Cuts just to see if I could crimp that huge blocker (16 inch tops) and to check my patterns, so I was using leather that I had laying around and the lining ended up being chrome tanned. And I wasn't trying to case the leather, I just got frustrated and decided to leave the partially crimped blocker on the board for awhile and ended up not getting back to it until the next day. Purely accidental. But I ended up with a pretty good result.

I agree with your well written words DW. It seems to me within the first few minutes of starting to crimp a vamp whether it is going to go easily or not. I can't explain it but it seems possible to see or feel where the stresses are in the leather and then to begin to move the leather where it needs to go.

On the other hand, one trick that has worked for me a couple of times. If the leather around the corner just gets too pig tight, I cut a couple of small scallops into the edge. This seems to act like increasing the edge length of the "half circle" at the corner. One time I knew I had lots of extra leather so my scallop was probably half inch deep into the blocker.

DW I can see you shaking your head and saying "just do it properly to start with and you can avoid all the funny business". And I agree but it sure is fun to "experiment" and see what works and what doesn't.

The journey as well as the destination is fun!

Warmest Regards,
Tom Mickel

[tomo]

Hi DW,
I'd really like to say I enjoyed your video tutorials but...
I haven't seen them, I know when God gave out brains, I thought he said trains and missed mine, but I can't find them (brains or videos!). The only one I've seen is the tapering of the threads you did earlier and Jakes one on Hammer Jacking.

More power to y'awl.
T.

[dw]

Tom,

The two latest are in "Open Forum" > "Techniques, Crans..." > "Insoles and Inseaming"

There's a link in the messages. Besure you have Windows Media Player installed. Either click on the link or right click and save. First way opens WMP and streams thje video. Second way you downl;oad it then open it with WMP.

hope that helps....

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[tmattimore]

Thomas and D.W.
I am with D.W. on the wetting of full blockers.
I only wet my fronts for about two to three minutes in hot tap water and start to crimp. I can tell with in a minute or two if the piece will be easy or hard.
Coming from a more commercial aspect I devloped a system for crimping lots of these. I have never used a reinforce but I do use 5 crimping screws. The order I use them in to draft rarely changes and I only nail the toe and top to the board.
If you do enough of them you can tell how much slack to leave in the center(over the instep) to let it lay down. If you think of my screws as simply drafts then this may make some sense. I am no where as good a teacher as D.W.
The first draft is high on the leg to take out some slack. The second is down from the instep the third is about 2 inches above the pass line. I work these (instep and high throat) until I can get the heel screw on. meanwhile working the curve with a saddlers bouncer from the center out to the screws. The heel is worked until the last screw is put on at the pass line which is where they tear if at all.
After doing about 300 pair of these my system works for me it may not work for others. As D.W. mentioned in earlier posts the whole thing is a process. The board has to work with the lasts the blocker pattern has to work with the board etc. I use only one kind of leather from one tannery and if they quit I may quit making them.

Tom

[tommick]

Tom Mattimore,
If it's a trade secret then don't tell but if not then what leather do you use for your full cuts?

300 pair! That's quite an accomplishment!

So, if I understand correctly, you use 4 screws from the heel up: heel, throat, high PL and high on leg. Does this mean that you don't use any tacks or lasting pliers and just use crimping screws?

Thanks, Tom Mickel

[tmattimore]

The leather is from Wickett & Craig it is 6 0z veg milled, ask for glenn he knows what I get. It can be dyed black or brown(not a lot of color choice). I only tack at the toe and the top. For full linings veg tanned pig but put both of them on the board and crimp them together it tears less that way. yes I use 4 screws from the heel up and one under the instep. You never know how they will go until you are done Last week I did a pair cut from the same skin right next to each other the first crimped in under 10 minutes and the second took a half hour. I guess that is the mystery part. I decided to give up on trade secrets.
Tom

[dw]

Tom,

If you don't mind....where are you getting that veg pig? What weight is it? Any special way to order it?


Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[paul]

Tom,

I've been using milled Wickett and Craig for tooled boot tops for the last year or so. It really does work easily, as you've implied. Very little, if any character is lost to the tooling when it's turned, either. Does Glenn split that to 6 ounce for you?

And you know, I appreciate what you have expressed about giving up on trade secrets. And I respect you for doing that. And that's the real blessing this forum is to our trade. Thank you.

I also want to tell you, that you stand as a very productive person, to me. You've previously mentioned your rate of production as about 100 pair a year, and it was met with disbelief by some. However, I thought about the way I could move around my shop when I was doing while-you-wait shoe repair, and how speed was often found in knowing what I was going to do next. I definitely can believe you doing that much. I can tell you know how to hustle. (And obviously, you're well equipted!) And I want to thank you for that example.

I'll need to hustle when I get back from this Christmas "vacation....

As for the status on the full cuts I'm working right now: I'm waiting to try on the fitters. The linings are both crimpted, but I won't get the front blockers on the boards until I get back from ...seeing my grand new brandaughter", next week. So, I'll have to wait to get back to that then.

Merry Christmas to all.

PK

[tmattimore]

D.W.
I was getting it fron Siegel but when I called this morning they said they were out. They probably won't get any until January. It is a nominal 2 oz but runs up to 3.
Paul
Speed comes from whiny clients and practice. The worst are the ones who want to hang around and watch thinking it will speed you up.
Glenn splits dyes and mills it but if you want to tool a full cut I suggest tooling on the crimping board after it is crimped I don't tool but a freind who does did one for me with a little distortion when turning but not to bad.
Tom