Pattern making

[dw]

Nasser,

It seems to me that jodhpurs are a bit taller than the common ankle boot or the chukka (nee George boot. But how much taller? That's what we need a standard for...to lay out the specifications for the classic jodhpur--how much the front overlaps the back; where the stitch-down is relative to the side of the foot both vertically and horizontally; even how the straps are wrapped around the boot...although that can be varied and could, I suppose, be figured out.

To me, and for my level of knowledge, standards are a good thing.

I'm not, however, sure why a boot last is needed. ?? I want to make my jodhpurs on a shoe last.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[dearbone]

DW,

There is no argument about it that the jodhpurs are taller than ankle boots and can be made even taller with enough buckles going all the way up, the front can over lap about 20mm or more,the trick is in the accurately drawing/designing of the front part mainly the tongue just like we shoe makers make one piece vamp and tongue Derbys,but in this case the tongue is higher and blocking will be needed.

Nasser

[dearbone]

Oh, why a boot last is needed for this class of boots? for one reason,they are boots and the foot enters them like they enter boots even if both sides the front and the back can be parted half way.

Nasser

[courtney]

[romango]

I've been using shoe lasts for my Women's zipper boots. I can be difficult to get them on if the zipper doesn't allow the side to open enough.

But, assuming it does, the boot then fits closer across the short heel, which seems desirable.

So, if the sides front and back can be parted, I don't see why you would need or want a boot last.

I'm ready to be educated, however.

[artzend]

Rick

You are right, you don't need a boot last for this sort of boot, as long as the fixings are low enough for a foot to pass, a shoe last should be fine.

Tim

[dearbone]

Rick,Tim,

I made many ankle boots of all sorts,side lace,side elastic,side zippers boots with some leather adding to the last to sharpen the instep curve or straighten the back line curve of the last,zipper boots are different than the jodhpurs,the zipper is placed closer to the feather than the fixings of the the jodhpurs which has to stay an 1.5" to 2" above the feather,if sewn too low,the front will collapse like boot that Georgene posted above. not saying the boots can't be made on shoe lasts,but a boot last is preferred and when one takes a close look at Lobb's samples one sees that they are all made on boot lasts and that's my understanding.


Nasser

[dw]

BTW,

As Courtney was so kind to inform me, Patrick's Modern Patternmaking and Design includes a standard for ladies jodhpurs and I am sure that it would suit (or at least provide a starting point) for a men's jodhpur as well.

She has the standard in pdf format and I thought I would give her the chance to post them as attachments. (Courtney...contact admin if you are still having trouble)

Thanks Courtney.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[janne_melkersson]

Nasser et all,
I have never seen a boot last at Loobs, what they are using is a shoe last with a build up at the instep. Which might change it to a boot last?
The only time traditionally London West End shoemakers use another last then a shoe last is when making loafers.

I am using the same concept on my jodhpurs and it works well. The same goes for riding boots both laced field boots and dressage boots

[courtney]

Chukka_boot_1-10717.pdf*mime_pdf.gif*application/pdf*35.7*johdpur*Chukka+boot+1%2ePDF

Chukka_boot_2-10718.pdf*mime_pdf.gif*application/pdf*32.0*johdpur*Chukka+boot+2%2ePDF

Chukka_boot_3-10719.pdf*mime_pdf.gif*application/pdf*24.7*johdpur*Chukka+boot+3%2ePDF

[courtney]

It looks like these might work, And just for the record I am a man.
Also, someone on this forum was nice enough to email these to me a while ago when I was talking about chukka boot patterns. Thanks!

Courtney

(Message edited by courtney on December 29, 2009)

[dw]

Courtney,

I am very sorry to have assumed you were female. Not that there's anything wrong with being female, of course (just making a little joke to cover up my embarrassment...am I making it worse?)

Thank you for posting these and thank you again for sending me the originals.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[courtney]

Thats O.K., at least Valery is on here too!

[relferink]

Courtney, thanks for posting that PDF, it's a bit hard to decipher for me, maybe I need to move closer to the black board and without having Patrick in my collection I can't check the original but what I can see makes a lot of sense.
DW; Depending on what method of pattern making you subscribe to you have landmarks on your lasts and pattern setup. Don't deviate from them unless you absolutely have to. The X marks in the PDF are clearly those type of landmarks. I'm not crazy about Patrick's use of set measurements, I prefer to work with proportionate scales but that being what it is, I do not believe that the male jodhpur would proportionately be any different other than the set measurements Patrick gives (to find T, from F to F1 etc)
I would like to ask a newly registered expert pattern maker, Tim Noonan his input. Tim please jump in if you can elaborate a bit more.

Rob - Member Honourable Cordwainers' Company

[tjburr]

You leave town for a few days, and many great discussions start up! I am particularly excited that DW brought this one up.

As mentioned earlier, I have been planning a pair of Jodhpurs. Since I have always been interested in the pattern side of the art as much as the making side, I looked through a number of sources.

I thought I could toss out some thoughts on what I was planning and elicit suggestions.

The standard I was planning on using evolved from

1) starting with George Koleff's ankle boot standard with modifications Tim Skyrme provided (thanks Tim these were well needed), and is greatly influenced by this

2) partially from "introduction to the theory and practice of boot and shoe manufacture (Plucknett)

3)Partially from the pattern in the Patrick book mentioned above,

4)a discussion with Greg Carmack (he has made some absolutely beautiful Jodhpur's and I had the luck to visit his shop a few months ago),

5)looking at various pictures such as those presented above

6)and a small tweak from experience in making boots from my own unique renaissance "like" pattern. As you know I am not an expert on making lasted shoes, however the turned shoes I make have some similarities in pattern.

The first picture here shows the standard I developed.

The second shows extra lines I drew on the standard to show where I would like to draw the vamp and quarter lines. Red is for vamp, Green is for quarter, and blue is the straps that will be attached to the vamp. My program does not draw the curved lines yet so I had to draw these in with alignment points at K1, G2, C, L5, etc.

I hope to make these lines work since for style purposes I think I would like what these look like on the foot. Experience with my standard shoes/boots makes me think this should work well with the strap location and look good during flexing of the foot. I also think these could be a slight challenge to crimp for someone with less crimping experience (unfortunately I fall into this group, but challenges are always fun)

I did notice wide variance in where the vamp line was located in many pictures. This may be due to a different opinion on what looks best, but I also believe some of this is to allow for easier crimping. The third image shows an example of the variance I am referring to.

Any suggestions/comments would be greatly appreciated. I will probably try to crimp a vamp this week to see how it goes.

DW: If you wanted I could put your measurements in and make a pdf of the standard; it will print out as 4 sheets of normal paper with alignment marks to tape together. Or I would be glad to send you a copy of the program with the pattern and the ability to adjust (of course with instructions). Since I have not made these, and do not have the years of experience to know how this will work out, I am not sure this would be of the greatest assistance but I am surely willing if you want to compare to whatever you arrive at.

10723.jpg

10724.jpg

10725.jpg

[paul]

Terry,

Great looking graphic. Did you develope it yourself? Or is it a variation of Rick Roman's?

After our beer together Saturday afternoon I came home to find DW's question and knew you'd be interested. It was great to visit with you again, btw.

Good luck with this, both you and DW, and we'll be watching.

Oh, and Thanks again for the wax. I'll get back with a report.

Paul

[dw]

Terry,

I don't think you would have any problem crimping a vamp blocker in either version. Just remember that the vamp itself is cut from the already crimped blocker and for that reason alone the blocker wants to be oversized by a bit. This allows some margin for drafting with the pincers and tacking. There also may be some "draw" in the throat...where leather, trying to form itself to three dimensions, seems to shrink up.

I think the one thing that I, as a complete novice...particularly with jodhpurs....have noticed is that on classic examples (such as Lobbs, etc.) the vamp tongue is wide enough above the fixings that it appears to be the same width as the quarter. Even though the quarter might actually be wider, that extra width lies under the vamp tongue...so the overall effect is one of balance and symmetry...if balance and symmetry what you're shooting for.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

(Message edited by dw on December 30, 2009)

[tjburr]

Paul,

I also very much enjoyed the visit.

This program is separate from Rick Roman's efforts. This is a standalone program that runs on a computer either connected to the web or not. It allows you to both build up and save a pattern to your local disk and adjust a patterns dimensions (such as joint measurement) for printout. Other than the ability to add curved lines, I am pretty happy with the current state of the program.

I need to verify my ability to distribute a part of the code, something I have been planning to do for several years but seem to procrastinate over. I was hoping to make the program freely available to HCC members and maybe a broader public. I would like to help encourage HCC participation since it is such an invaluable resource. My desire to avoid procrastination in the new year will hopefully move this along.

A little background on the program if interested....

My full time job is programming and at one point in developing patterns for my ren shoes I became tired of repeating the same calculations and adjustments and decided to develop a program. This was in 2000 and was prior to actually knowing much about pattern making methods.

In making patterns for theatrical clothing, there is a concept of a body block which is similar to a standard for the upper body. In addition I had been using a book called the "blue book of mens tailoring" which was first published when hand made clothing was popular (1907) and they had a geometric method of making clothing of all types.

I had already been using this method for clothes and had played around with making a program to do this, though it was very crude and not user friendly. I started applying this to my shoes. I had it quite usable by 2002, but the user friendly part has been a slow background activity.

Once I started doing this and performed more research on shoe patterns, I found the above mentioned Plucknett book and a 5 volume set of books "the modern boot and shoe maker";"modern" being printed in early 1900's. I also found a set of articles DW had written for the Leather workers journal which showed the concept of patterning cowboy boots and most importantly the concept that some parts of the pattern are fixed shapes and some are varied based on measurements.

These provided some of the concept of a shoe standard, and also some of the geometry for these standards. I do not know if it was good or bad, but I did not find the Koleff book or the "modern pattern cutting and Design" book from Patrick, until much later. This meant I arrived at my own idea on what the geometry should be prior to seeing this vast knowledge of information which could have saved me lots of research. My own research involved the general geometry of the foot and gathering all the information on measurements for various sizes I had produced previously. I do feel that the research gave me an understanding of what the numbers represent relative to the geometry of the foot rather than just knowing the numbers. These other sources help make the jump from foot to last, for which Koleff's last making book has helped as well.

I have since found a number of other sources that have a snippets of information on patterning. And I must cheer for myself; just this Christmas my wife bought me a book "boot and shoe pattern cutting and clicking" by Paul Hasluck which I am exited about. Shoe books have been a standard Christmas and birthday gift for me since 2002, and my wife loves to find old books which works out quite wonderful .

I am also planning on getting Frank's updated patterning book once my bank account recovers from Christmas, giving me a little more "modern" book on pattern making Maybe a suggestion for a birthday gift!

In a lot of ways, I have found I like the patterning side as much as making the shoes themselves.

Just an example of the standard for my ren shoes, and the resulting shoe. Sorry about the poor quality picture. I have very few digital pictures of my shoes and most of them were scanned in using a not-so-good scanner.

10727.jpg

10728.jpg

Sorry about the length of the post, being off work the last few days has allowed me to get wordy.

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year

Terry
HCC Member

[tjburr]

DW,

Thanks for the encouragement and symmetry input.

I forgot to ask a very critical question.

I have been trying to decide if I should use Kangaroo or Baby Calf leather. Which do you think would work best for someone with little crimping experience? Is there other advantages/disadvantages in making this decision?

I was also thinking of trying other new techniques on this pair. After seeing Peter's demo of pegged shoes at the AGM, I was interested in trying a pair. Are there any thoughts on using this in combination with a Jodhpur pattern? I have seen your very cool looking pegging patterns done in the sole of boots and thought I would like to experiment with styles. Living in Texas I was thinking this might give the Jodhpur a western flair.


Terry
HCC Member

[dw]

Terry,

I think I'd use the calf in a first go-round, but sometimes you can't get the colour you want in the calf and can get it in the kangaroo. I really don't think you'll have that much problem, either way

My own inclination, if truth be known, would be to go with the Edelman calf some folks have been getting. It is a veg tan and if it were crimped flesh-side out on a smooth board, could be boned and handled a little more roughly than the baby calf or kangaroo, and could be expected to take and hold the shape as well or better with less stretching.

Of course you could crimp any leather inside out and that would allow that little bit extra leeway to bone and chase wrinkles but veg tan is known for molding to a shape better than chrome tan.

As far as pegging goes, just remember that it creates an additional stiffness in the sole that is not naturally there in the leather. And that is doubly true if you decide to use a mid-sole...as was often done historically.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[tjburr]

DW,

Wow! I must thank you for the quick response.

I will have to order a hide of the Edelman calf, if nothing more than it gives me a reference of what others like, but have not ordered one yet.

For the baby calf I have a hide of GH Leather antiqued baby calf that was a color that I liked for the Jodhpur's. I have not used GH Leathers baby calf, but was hoping it would form ok. If not I was guessing it would be an experience well learned in what to look for in leather.

Now that I think of it, I will have to look up the post on how to identify veg tan. I was assuming all the baby calf I had was not veg tan, but now I am not sure now.

I had my thoughts based around crimping right side out, and now you have me thinking about the merits of crimping inside out. I will have to do some searches on the site and maybe read up on the merits of inside out. After getting around the idea of inside out, I can see that it would allow for a little more leeway. I will have to also review my crimp boards and make sure I have smoothed them down enough to go inside out.

I will hold off the crimping experience a few hours and do some research. Once again I must say this web site is an extraordinary resource!

Thanks

Terry
HCC Member

[dw]

Terry,

Once you have crimped the blocker inside out and allowed it to dry, take it off the boards and re-crimp it right-side out.

Turn it right-side out and place it on the board in the same position it was in when it was inside-out. Tack in a few strategic places and then run the whole thing under warm water to thoroughly re-wet. Then finish re-crimping by tacking it taut. It won't take nothing...you won't even have to pull it much to get it tight to the board, you won't have to bone it again, and when dry it will be like you had crimped it right-side out to begin with...without any stress or friction on the finish of the leather.

I do all full cuts this way.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[luckyduck]

Here is another pattern question that I am sure has a simple answer, but working alone has stuck me at a mental dead end.

I am laying out the vamps on a pair of western boots using DW's patterns. The vamps are off the crimp boards and cut to the rough template.

The question is about the precise tongue cutting template and how to use it.

Picture 1 shows how I cut the rough cut. It looks floppy because the rubber cement that held if flat has been pulled apart.

10757.jpg

Picture 2 is my best guess on how to use the precision template by keeping the vamp folded, use the curves of the template and then free hand blend it to the top line from picture one.

10758.jpg

SO, is that how it is done? I'm sure this is one of those things where I am over thinking and making way more confusing than it really is.

Thanks

Paul

[dw]

Paul,

The first template is the "quarter curve template."
The second template is the "tongue template."

Do not cut the vamp as depicted in your second photo!!

So...now you have to pull the quarters of the vamp down such that the sides vamp are as close together as they were when they were on the board. The quarters will be spread flat on the table. The tongue will be flat on the table. But the vamp will be perpendicular to the surface of the table just as if it were still on the crimping board.

Now you should be able to lay your tongue template on the tongue, and the points of the tongue (the side points) should line up with the points of the template. The quarter curve on the tongue template should line up with the quarter curve you have already cut. You may need to adjust the leather under the tongue template to achieve this perfectly. It is only the top of the tongue that may need to be re-cut.

When I do this I never cut the "top" of the tongue with the quarter template...only the quarter curve. Then I use the tongue template to cut the tongue.

The idea is that you want the quarter curves to be cut the same, so you do that with the vamp folded. But the tongue you want to cut more precisely so you do that with the tongue portion of the vamp spread flat on the board.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[paul]

Paul,

This was one of those things that maybe left a little bit too much for the reader to figure out. I had trouble with this for awhile also.

But after posing the question to DW, I had it all cleard up just as he's done here for you. And as a matter of fact used the results in the above series of pictures. Here it is again, only it's for the triad.

10760.jpg

My tongue templates are as you've shown, I just have changed the top part a bit to fit my own style. I have several that I use.

10761.jpg

I don't what I was thinking here, but normally I'll cut the quater curve. I think I was just playing with the technique to set it up like this.

10762.jpg

Here I've just outlined my template and am prepared to rubber cement the blocker for cutting the tongue.

10763.jpg

The template was used to outline the tongue

10764.jpg

And here it is cut out.

I hope this helps,
Paul